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Ya, I don't even know how that is up for debate anymore.
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Oct 21, 2019 20:25
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Bernstrike posted:I think Caligula had irony poisoning and used the horse to mock how bad the senators were but the dipshit historian senators wrote him straight, unaware that he was both “on one” and “doing a bit.” BTW the Roman Empire series on Netflix is actually really good this sort of thing like the season about Caligula was more about his incredibly hosed up family and how it discredited his regime rather "he appointed his horse lol" Also probably the only pop history you'll ever find that depicts Caesar in anything less than glowing terms. For example, the impetus for Caesar's assassination are legitimate fears that he'll eat poo poo like crassus and bankrupt the state on his campaigns.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:24
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Bernstrike posted:I think Caligula had irony poisoning and used the horse to mock how bad the senators were but the dipshit historian senators wrote him straight, unaware that he was both “on one” and “doing a bit.” They were aware, they just didn't like him and wanted to talk poo poo. It's why I assume any major figure who's reviewed for dicking over the upper class is actually good.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:26
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Agean90 posted:They were aware, they just didn't like him and wanted to talk poo poo. It's why I assume any major figure who's reviewed for dicking over the upper class is actually good. Notice how Vespasian is considered "the only man who improved" precisely because he was the only one who allowed the Senate to talk tons of poo poo to his face.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:28
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Bro Dad posted:Notice how Vespasian is considered "the only man who improved" precisely because he was the only one who allowed the Senate to talk tons of poo poo to his face. I remember hearing somewhere that Vlad the impaler mostly did the whole implaling thing on noblemen and that if you were just some peasant he actually rocked because he loving hated useless nobility so much that you got a fair say in trails and poo poo.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:31
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You can also pretty much see a historian's bias by whether they think Caracalla granting citizenship to provincials was a terrible mistake or not.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:32
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The big thing to remember is that to be a historian in antiquity was virtually always to be a propagandists for or against someone. Which is totally different from how we do it these days honest! *tugs collar, shoves manuscript entitled "Dick Cheney: American Pinochet" out of sight*
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Oct 21, 2019 21:51
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Agean90 posted:I remember hearing somewhere that Vlad the impaler mostly did the whole implaling thing on noblemen and that if you were just some peasant he actually rocked because he loving hated useless nobility so much that you got a fair say in trails and poo poo. That's awesome, do you have a source on that?
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Oct 21, 2019 22:06
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Captain_Maclaine posted:The big thing to remember is that to be a historian in antiquity was virtually always to be a propagandists for or against someone. Which is totally different from how we do it these days honest! *tugs collar, shoves manuscript entitled "Dick Cheney: American Pinochet" out of sight* That title really doesn't tell us if you're in the pro or anti crowd, you should workshop it a bit more
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Oct 21, 2019 22:16
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Goon Danton posted:That title really doesn't tell us if you're in the pro or anti crowd, you should workshop it a bit more I named it that chiefly as Dick once said his greatest fear was that someone would "Pinochet him" and his equally worthless daughter Liz has expressed similar concerns that history would not be fair to her blood-drenched father.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:21
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Haha Jesus Christ
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Oct 21, 2019 22:24
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mycomancy posted:That's awesome, do you have a source on that? most of my historical knowledge is half remembered from one of a dozen different sources which means the more unsure of it i am the more believable it becomes
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Oct 21, 2019 22:51
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Bro Dad posted:BTW the Roman Empire series on Netflix is actually really good this sort of thing the conspirators campaigned on the murder the following year, issuing coinage with daggers and a freedmans cap on the reverse of their own faces into public circulation to celebrate it so there was some reactionary audience for that narrative among the public.
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Oct 22, 2019 01:19
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Agean90 posted:I remember hearing somewhere that Vlad the impaler mostly did the whole implaling thing on noblemen and that if you were just some peasant he actually rocked because he loving hated useless nobility so much that you got a fair say in trails and poo poo. The impaling thing was probably an exaggeration of the one time he did it to a bunch of turkish prisoners to scare off the sultan between that and mehmet II almost dying in a night attack the ottomans were like "gently caress this these yokels are insane" and they actually left. vlad the impaler's downfall was more about his lovely relationship with matthias corvinus than literally made-up cruelties of the hungarian court also vlad brother's radu the beautiful was mehmet's hot twink boyfriend
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Oct 22, 2019 04:31
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in 9th grade my history teacher made us do march madness for worst authoritarian ever and it was a debate competition and i think he just wanted to hear kids get excited about hitlers death totals or whatever cause it was really creepy to compete on whos the most inhuman monster but the guy that had vlad got him to the final by just reading one hosed up execution story every round.
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Oct 22, 2019 04:45
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Real hurthling! posted:in 9th grade my history teacher made us do march madness for worst authoritarian ever and it was a debate competition and i think he just wanted to hear kids get excited about hitlers death totals or whatever cause it was really creepy to compete on whos the most inhuman monster but the guy that had vlad got him to the final by just reading one hosed up execution story every round. in middle school I had a book that was basically that and my favorite was always Idi Amen just because out of all the murderous dictators he was by far the laziest, like he mostly committed mass murder just by not caring about governing and contracting out the business of state to criminal gangs and cronies who basically ran the government as a protection racket
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Oct 22, 2019 05:30
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Bernstrike posted:I think Caligula had irony poisoning and used the horse to mock how bad the senators were but the dipshit historian senators wrote him straight, unaware that he was both “on one” and “doing a bit.” all of history, is but posting writ large
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Oct 22, 2019 05:31
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Squalid posted:in middle school I had a book that was basically that and my favorite was always Idi Amen just because out of all the murderous dictators he was by far the laziest, like he mostly committed mass murder just by not caring about governing and contracting out the business of state to criminal gangs and cronies who basically ran the government as a protection racket sounds like Mobutu actually and of course there's always Mengistu's "I spent all my money on the army please help me my country is dying" style of neglectful despostism
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Oct 22, 2019 07:55
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Real hurthling! posted:in 9th grade my history teacher made us do march madness for worst authoritarian ever and it was a debate competition and i think he just wanted to hear kids get excited about hitlers death totals or whatever cause it was really creepy to compete on whos the most inhuman monster but the guy that had vlad got him to the final by just reading one hosed up execution story every round. in tenth grade world history every year the teacher would split the class into spartans and athenians and have a massive debate over which society was better. every year athens won except ours, where we swayed the votes with a spirited defense of eugenics
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Oct 22, 2019 08:18
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sophistry was identified and shunned by the academy 2400 years ago but nobody told american high schools
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Oct 22, 2019 14:40
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Real hurthling! posted:sophistry was identified and shunned by the academy 2400 years ago but nobody told american high schools if americans could identify sophistry we would be exploring another galaxy right now
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Oct 22, 2019 14:54
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Bernstrike posted:I think Caligula had irony poisoning and used the horse to mock how bad the senators were but the dipshit historian senators wrote him straight, unaware that he was both “on one” and “doing a bit.” Caligula was simply too cool for Rome
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Oct 22, 2019 17:17
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Realtalk though Caligula wasn't the addle-pated madman he usually get describe as being he was seriously a broken person who'd been severely traumatized for the first decade and change of his life, and probably not that fun to be around.
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Oct 22, 2019 19:58
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Realtalk though Caligula wasn't the addle-pated madman he usually get describe as being he was seriously a broken person who'd been severely traumatized for the first decade and change of his life, and probably not that fun to be around. Vis videre quam ego got aurium cicatricibus? edit stupid translator didnt get the got
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Oct 22, 2019 20:02
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Bernstrike posted:I think Caligula had irony poisoning and used the horse to mock how bad the senators were but the dipshit historian senators wrote him straight, unaware that he was both “on one” and “doing a bit.” In general, one needs to remember that the concept of libel or slander did not really exist back then, so it was a pretty standard procedure to just lambaste someone who was disliked publically with any amount of nonsense. Since the senators wrote the histories (in a general sense) they just crucified guys like Caligula and Nero that they hated. Nero was in power for 13 years. He was bad, but he certainly was not hated by everyone. For Caligula he was definitely hosed up, but the horse thing is very likely to be him making the statement of "you idiots are so worthless I may as well put my horse in the Senate cause he at least can carry me around" In the "no such thing as slander" category just look at what is written about Theodora wherein she is described as being history's most prolific whore.
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Oct 22, 2019 20:09
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i say swears online posted:Vis videre quam ego got aurium cicatricibus? visne; get that enclitic interrogative particle on yo verb quam: no problem but the sense of "in what way" is better captured by quomodo got: habuerim or acceperim or another tense of subjunctive needed in the indirect question aurium cicatricibus: this says "with/by scars of the ears." you probably want to say "scars on my ears" so you need the accusative and a prepositional phrase like cicatrices in auribus tldr: google translate for latin is a hot trainwreck mess Real hurthling! has issued a correction as of 20:16 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 20:14
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It went back and forth just fine!! you just dont want to hear the truth about how we live in a society
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Oct 22, 2019 20:19
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Nero was so hated that several usurpers managed to start popular revolts by claiming they were him after he died
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Oct 22, 2019 20:20
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Plutonis posted:Nero was so hated that several usurpers managed to start popular revolts by claiming they were him after he died The common folk prefer dictators to elites. Both loving suck
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Oct 22, 2019 20:37
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Sertorius was cool as hell
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Oct 22, 2019 20:53
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WoodrowSkillson posted:In general, one needs to remember that the concept of libel or slander did not really exist back then, so it was a pretty standard procedure to just lambaste someone who was disliked publically with any amount of nonsense. Since the senators wrote the histories (in a general sense) they just crucified guys like Caligula and Nero that they hated. Nero was in power for 13 years. He was bad, but he certainly was not hated by everyone. For Caligula he was definitely hosed up, but the horse thing is very likely to be him making the statement of "you idiots are so worthless I may as well put my horse in the Senate cause he at least can carry me around" My pet peeve when it comes to Caligula is the Seashells story. People act like he just marched an army to the sea and asked them to collect seashells but.. What if that was a giant gently caress you to his troops? Think about this: We know that Caligula's successor, Claudius eventually conquered britain. What plenty of people either do not know or forget, is that his army first mutinied and absolutely refused to do the crossing. It took a lot of convincing to get them on those ships... What if years earlier, Caligula faced the very same problem? He tried to invade britain but his troops mutinied? Everything I know about Caligula makes me think he wasn't a patient man and would probably be more inclined to give up than to risk getting himself murdered by his troops. So what if once they mutinied, he brought them to the sea and had them collect seashells as a way to humiliate them? Considering the length of time, it's quite possible that these were the very same troops that Claudius had to deal with a few years later. They would remember Caligula's humiliation and possibly get on the boats?
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Oct 22, 2019 21:03
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How Sertorius came to be worshiped as a demi-god by his ragtag army of Berbers and Iberians after being exiled in North Africa:Plutarch posted:However, at the time of which I speak he set out from Africa on the invitation of the Lusitanians. These he proceeded to organize at once, acting as their general with full powers, and he brought the neighbouring parts of Spain into subjection. Most p29 of the people joined him of their own accord, owing chiefly to his mildness and efficiency; but sometimes he also betook himself to cunning devices of his own for deceiving and charming them. The chief one of these, certainly, was the device of the doe, which was as follows. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Sertorius*.html
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Oct 22, 2019 21:26
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twoday posted:Sertorius was cool as hell 
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Oct 22, 2019 21:51
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Dalael posted:My pet peeve when it comes to Caligula is the Seashells story. People act like he just marched an army to the sea and asked them to collect seashells but.. What if that was a giant gently caress you to his troops? Think about this: Uh, that's exactly what every reputable historian thinks really happened.
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Oct 22, 2019 21:57
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Uh, that's exactly what every reputable historian thinks really happened. That's possible. I'm pretty sure i heard this version in the history of rome podcast. But every documentary i've ever seen just portray him as some dumb rear end who was just crazy and had his army do this for the heck of it.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:41
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twoday posted:How Sertorius came to be worshiped as a demi-god by his ragtag army of Berbers and Iberians after being exiled in North Africa: the original Big Boss
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Oct 22, 2019 22:51
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apocalypse nunc
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Oct 23, 2019 00:01
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Squalid posted:in middle school I had a book that was basically that and my favorite was always Idi Amen just because out of all the murderous dictators he was by far the laziest, like he mostly committed mass murder just by not caring about governing and contracting out the business of state to criminal gangs and cronies who basically ran the government as a protection racket The Last King of Scotland is very good.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:05
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btw if you are interested in modern scholars desperate to make a name for themselves, google rehabilitating nero. about 3 years ago a bunch of pop history pieces were published by nat geo et al. discussing how its a new frontier in research. nothing ive seen has come from it yet. the flavian propaganda game is too on point. thank you blessed Martial
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Oct 23, 2019 00:06
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shout out to all the forensics experts out there who are diligently working to create reconstructions of ancient people that don't look like they could possibly be accurate Julius Caesar:   Medieval man of Aberdeen:   2,000 year old Scottish woman: 
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Oct 23, 2019 00:18
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