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Pshht 5 minutes to midnight. The doomsday clock IRL is at 2 minutes to midnight now. e; I've read some spectacularly bad takes on this on reddit, which I know is a bad idea but there's one I keep thinking about because its so bad it crosses over into interesting to me: There are a couple of commenters saying things like "its not Watchmen its just cops vs the KKK" completely ignoring the fact that in this story both are acting as self proclaimed superheroes. The cop as superhero thing is of note because in the logic of the universe it makes total sense. The crimebusters were destroying gangs despite being just a bunch of regular determined guys in tights, and the worlds most succesful government operative had a mask and a gaudy outfit, so if we accept that theres provably something about putting on spandex that makes someone extremely effective at rightous violence then the rational thing to do is adapt that into law enforcement. But as soon as you do the mystique is taken away somewhat, to the point where certain viewers start perceiving it as a cop story rather than a superhero story. Though Sister Night has a secret identity, hideout, Batmobile and hangs out with a bunch of other dudes in gaudy outfits, the only difference between her and batman is 1) that her badge is officially state sanctioned rather than some shady dealing with the commissioner and 2) Black woman. I initially wondered if the Keene act had been repealed in this universe but of course it hasn't, cause these superheroes are not vigilantes by definition. massive spider fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 09:04
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wolfs posted:I watched episode 1 and everyone is unlikable and complicit. This is the one thing they got right about Watchmen
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Oct 22, 2019 09:20
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massive spider posted:the only difference between her and batman is 1) that her badge is officially state sanctioned rather than some shady dealing with the commissioner So just like the Adam West Batman.
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Oct 22, 2019 09:43
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massive spider posted:Pshht 5 minutes to midnight. The doomsday clock IRL is at 2 minutes to midnight now. Reddit doesn't like that their heroes aren't on the same side
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Oct 22, 2019 10:13
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Klungar posted:Since I didn’t see anyone else say it, I will: I think “Veidt” is actually Dr. Manhattan and his servants are life forms he said he was going to go off and create. The transition from the stars in the sky to the Scottish moors is actually to show that this is taking place on some other planet Dr. M hosed off to to play God. The Dr. M playing in the sand on Mars is just a copy to make humanity think he’s otherwise occupied. The anniversary referenced is not of Squid Day, but the intrinsic field accident. I just checked the comic and the dates line up (assuming the scene takes place simultaneously as the rest of the episode). The episode happens in september 2019 according to the cops date log. The squid attack happened midnight nov 1st 1985. Manhattens accident happened september 1959 making september 2019 his 60th anniversary.
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Oct 22, 2019 10:17
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The official description on Sky is that the show is set in a world where superheroes are outlawed. Which based on the first episode seems... Inaccurate?
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Oct 22, 2019 10:18
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Reading the supplementary material and it refers to persistent techno-phobia. I've heard some people say that it's because of Doctor Manhattan, but I'd say it's equally likely to be because of the "accident" where scientists summoned vagina cthulhu into downtown New York as well as the old Manhattan Cancer scare. Edit: Man I'm dumb, I should have kept reading before kramering into the thread to drop my hot take cptn_dr fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 10:29
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cptn_dr posted:Reading the supplementary material and it refers to persistent techno-phobia. I've heard some people say that it's because of Doctor Manhattan, but I'd say it's equally likely to be because of the "accident" where scientists summoned vagina cthulhu into downtown New York as well as the old Manhattan Cancer scare. I think the whole point of the squid attack is that the public believe that humans had nothing to do with it.
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Oct 22, 2019 10:41
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Steve2911 posted:The official description on Sky is that the show is set in a world where superheroes are outlawed. "Superhero" in this context means crime-fighting vigilante. There are, thus far, none in this show. The people we see wearing masks are either cops (yellow masks), police detectives (individual costumes), or domestic terrorists (Seventh Cavalry). But that's a bad description for the show because it equally applies to the comic, where all the superheroes are either outlaws or similarly government-sanctioned agents. cptn_dr posted:Reading the supplementary material and it refers to persistent techno-phobia. I've heard some people say that it's because of Doctor Manhattan, but I'd say it's equally likely to be because of the "accident" where scientists summoned vagina cthulhu into downtown New York as well as the old Manhattan Cancer scare. The general public doesn't think scientists summoned it, though. It's only conspiracy theorists who believe that Veidt created the squid—the rest of the world believes that it was a trans-dimensional attack just as Veidt planned. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 10:56
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Necrothatcher posted:I think the whole point of the squid attack is that the public believe that humans had nothing to do with it. It's been ages since I read the comic, but I recall the squid getting dropped directly on top of the "Institute for Spatial Studies". It's reasonable for people to assume that there was some sort of human scientific meddling that played some part in the "invasion".
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Oct 22, 2019 11:22
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feedmyleg posted:The general public doesn't think scientists summoned it, though. It's only conspiracy theorists who believe that Veidt created the squid—the rest of the world believes that it was a trans-dimensional attack just as Veidt planned. Based on my memories from reading the original comic as holy scripture for years and years, Mock-Cthulhu did however materialize right in the middle of the Veidt corporation's dimensional research building. It wouldn't exactly be difficult to suspect that the experiments going on in that building might have inadvertently made it possible for Squiddy McSquidface to find and/or break through into our world, and that such research should be considered less than completely safe. E:f,b.
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Oct 22, 2019 11:26
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The idea was for people to come to the conclusion that it was probably a freak accident due to the research being conducted at the lab. In this way they don't expect another attack and, thus, won't be suspicious when one doesn't happen, but also now believe they're not alone and that an attack could happen, thus humanity must learn to work together to protect itself.
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Oct 22, 2019 11:43
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I hope russian cop guy returns. You don't see enough smoke in tv shows or even movies for that matter
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Oct 22, 2019 11:55
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:That was super not was I was expecting, good even. Honestly given the trailers and all the interviews leading up to this, it was pretty much exactly what I expected (Lindelof is on a roll). I haven't read the comic in 20+ years and I don't remember a lot of the details of it. While I know it is not required, I am planning to re-read it this week. I just think it would make the experience better.
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Oct 22, 2019 12:46
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I just finished reading Watchmen. It was pretty good. Rorschach embodies pretty much every single heroic ideal while being an insane sociopath so it makes sense that he's a martyr for nazis. The whole authoritarian leftism vs reactionary freedom fighters aspect also makes more sense if the US allied with the Soviet Union.Doctor Jeep posted:this is gonna be terrible
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Oct 22, 2019 14:16
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Another thing I was thinking about regarding symbolism and motifs and all that pretentious stuff is the notion of "black and white" and how that plays in the show. The film is in black and white, the Kavalry wear Rorschach's black and white mask, Sister Night wears black and white (and beats up a guy on the other side of a bathroom door, very specifically calling back to Rorschach's prison escape from the comic), Panda is wearing black and white and he's really invested in not letting the cops have guns unless they really really need to. I'm thinking obviously there's a pattern but as for what it means I'm not sure yet.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:24
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Klungar posted:Since I didn’t see anyone else say it, I will: I think “Veidt” is actually Dr. Manhattan and his servants are life forms he said he was going to go off and create. The transition from the stars in the sky to the Scottish moors is actually to show that this is taking place on some other planet Dr. M hosed off to to play God. The Dr. M playing in the sand on Mars is just a copy to make humanity think he’s otherwise occupied. The anniversary referenced is not of Squid Day, but the intrinsic field accident. On IMDb the actor is listed as Veidt.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:37
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Mercrom posted:Also Veidt seemed pretty crazy, but believing what he did about the the imminent certain end of human life, it was obviously the right call. No it loving wasn't! He's an insane mass murderer.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:46
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Casting Jeremy Irons as anything but Veidt would be a more shocking twist than anything else this show could do.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:48
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I'm kind of disappointed with the costuming so far. It all looks so cheap and shoddy when in the comic, at least in the 80s, tech had advanced far enough to where more advanced polymers and such were available which made someone like Rorschach able to have the shifting mask. I guess if there was a tech backlash it sort of makes sense, but it makes for less fun visuals I think. Looking Glass is great though. Edit: I'll be extremely disappointed if we don't see any of the weird bulb cigarettes. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 14:52
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Necrothatcher posted:No it loving wasn't! He's an insane mass murderer. Veidt did an awful thing but if - big if - you know all of the world would have died within months otherwise, so you feel the same? Is it better to just let that happen? The director is careful to say if you're starting from Veidt's assumptions that all his calculations are correct, that's when he thinks he would do it. I really think it's a complicated question if you have assurance of complete extinction otherwise.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:52
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Nail Rat posted:On IMDb the actor is listed as Veidt. My understanding is that anyone can edit IMDb, so it shouldn't be taken as gospel. The reviews I've read from critics have been too cute by half with "Jeremy Irons is playing a character who ~*~*certainly seems to be Veidt*~*~" for me to take it at face value. What would be the point in hiding his identity if he was just Veidt? Anyone who's read the story will know that's who he "is" instantly, and those who haven't will have no idea who it is anyways so there is no reason to hide the character as "Country Lord of the Manor" or whatever the captions list him as. The only reason to play this game is to make you think he's Veidt only to reveal you were wrong in that assumption.
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Oct 22, 2019 14:56
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Nail Rat posted:Veidt did an awful thing but if - big if - you know all of the world would have died within months otherwise, so you feel the same? Is it better to just let that happen? It’s still bad and wrong chief. The ultimate irony at the end of Watchmen is that Rorschach, the extremely conservative homophobe, has the moral high ground on everyone else at Veidts hide out. Veidt doesn’t know for sure that the world will end soon he’s just “done the math” or whatever but the comic shows that he’s a prideful piece of poo poo and that causes him to do extremely stupid poo poo. Even at the end he’s not entirely sure if he saved humanity and asks Dr. Manhattan if he did the right thing. Viedt doesn’t actually care about saving humanity he just wants to be the one to do it.
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Oct 22, 2019 15:28
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Ghosthotel posted:It’s still bad and wrong chief. The ultimate irony at the end of Watchmen is that Rorschach, the extremely conservative homophobe, has the moral high ground on everyone else at Veidts hide out. Yeah it is bad, I said so. And that dodges the question, putting yourself in his shoes, if you knew it was either extinction or a couple million dead, would you choose extinction? Keeping in mind he may also very well be insane, the Cold War also definitely appeared to be barreling that way in the comic. It's not entirely unreasonable that extinction was inevitable in that circumstance. Whatever the case, Veidt absolutely fails on the "making himself feel every death" because instead of killing himself or becoming a monk or something after this, he continues to live in opulent wealth.
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Oct 22, 2019 15:36
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Nail Rat posted:Veidt did an awful thing but if - big if - you know all of the world would have died within months otherwise, so you feel the same? Is it better to just let that happen? (I'm not the same poster but:) Yes, if the cost of saving our world from ourselves is slaughtering millions upon millions of innocents in a plan that might not even work in the near term, and definitely will not remain effective in the long term (as hinted at by Dr. Manhattan's parting words), I personally would rather let our world end. If you believe that the ends always justify the means, it's an easy "yes" if you are as self-assured of your own strategic brilliance as a man like Veidt. If you do not believe the ends ever justify the means when the means are "mass murder", it's an easy "no". Perhaps I need to reread the book because it's been a while, but I did not get the impression that Moore wanted the reader to feel very conflicted about how reprehensible Veidt's decision was. Your question is an accurate framing of how Veidt saw the situation, but it was not the actual question that he faced, because he did not and could not know for a fact if or when the world would end. And even if one assumes that he was right and his plan was necessary to stop the end of the world, it only stopped it this time. If Veidt believed that humanity's self-destructive tendencies would ultimately result in its destruction, then he should've realized that his plan didn't actually save the world, it only delayed it, until the memory of the event fades and future generations turn on themselves once again. (I suspect and hope that Veidt realizing his plan was only temporary is where Lindelof is going with all this.) All that said, I think Lindelof was speaking in that interview from the standpoint of Veidt the character, not himself. In which case I think he's absolutely right, anyone with Veidt's worldview and arrogance hits that button without hesitation. Klungar posted:Since I didn’t see anyone else say it, I will: I think “Veidt” is actually Dr. Manhattan and his servants are life forms he said he was going to go off and create. The transition from the stars in the sky to the Scottish moors is actually to show that this is taking place on some other planet Dr. M hosed off to to play God. The Dr. M playing in the sand on Mars is just a copy to make humanity think he’s otherwise occupied. The anniversary referenced is not of Squid Day, but the intrinsic field accident. So Dr. Manhattan got so bored with humanity that he's decided to pretend to be an old human man, slowly picking away at a typewriter, while having his imperfectly-replicated human servants massage his sore old-man thighs?
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Oct 22, 2019 15:46
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Ghosthotel posted:It’s still bad and wrong chief. The ultimate irony at the end of Watchmen is that Rorschach, the extremely conservative homophobe, has the moral high ground on everyone else at Veidts hide out.
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Oct 22, 2019 15:50
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Blotto_Otter posted:Your question is an accurate framing of how Veidt saw the situation, but it was not the actual question that he faced, because he did not and could not know for a fact if or when the world would end. This is pretty much what I'm getting at. He's so sure about "the math" yet somehow he thought that he could blow Dr. Manhattan apart. He's not as infallible as he thinks, but he certainly thinks he is. quote:So Dr. Manhattan got so bored with humanity that he's decided to pretend to be an old human man, slowly picking away at a typewriter, while having his imperfectly-replicated human servants massage his sore old-man thighs? Yeah I don't buy for a nanosecond this is what Dr. Manhattan is really doing with his time. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 15:51
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Mercrom posted:It's not ironic. His vile views and decision at the end are all explained by Rorschach being a crazy rear end in a top hat who just goes with his gut regardless of what everyone else thinks. Saying that he just goes with his gut is a really weird reading of the character. He has a very defined set of morals and values that lead him to his decision at the end. Whereas Veidt thinks he’s operating in some brain level moral grey area, Rorschach sees the world purely in terms of good and evil/black and white. His refusal to be complicit in the mass murder of millions is reflective of that.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:03
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Ghosthotel posted:Saying that he just goes with his gut is a really weird reading of the character. He has a very defined set of morals and values that lead him to his decision at the end. Whereas Veidt thinks he’s operating in some brain level moral grey area, Rorschach sees the world purely in terms of good and evil/black and white. His refusal to be complicit in the mass murder of millions is reflective of that. And Rorscach is the one who actually sacrifices his life for his convictions. Veidt will sacrifice millions of other lives before giving anything of his own.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:07
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Blotto_Otter posted:So Dr. Manhattan got so bored with humanity that he's decided to pretend to be an old human man, slowly picking away at a typewriter, while having his imperfectly-replicated human servants massage his sore old-man thighs? "The Watchmaker's Son" wouldn't be a tragedy in five acts if the character didn't change somewhat along the way. There is no way that omnipotent timeless Dr. Manhattan is still just dicking around making sandcastles on Mars after 34 years in the face of being party to the murder of millions and being made a social pariah to facilitate it. He said he was going to gently caress off to create life of his own, and whoever this mystery character is, that's what they seem to have done. Maybe it's just Veidt and some clones or robots or what have you, but that seems too simple for the mystery they've put behind this character and the twist behind his identity they seem to be setting up.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:15
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Nail Rat posted:This is pretty much what I'm getting at. He's so sure about "the math" yet somehow he thought that he could blow Dr. Manhattan apart. He's not as infallible as he thinks, but he certainly thinks he is. The "Veidt is dead" press clipping on the companion site, plus the preview trailer following episode 1, has me thinking that this is going to be just as big a theme in the show as in the book. There's a bit in there about Veidt stepping down from his company after losing his touch and watching his popularity sag, and then becoming a recluse before dropping off the grid entirely. I wonder if they're setting up for Veidt to do something even more drastic than what he did in the book, which he justifies to himself as an even greater necessary evil needed to cement the changes that the squid plan only effected temporarily, but which is really about proving (again) that only he can be the savior of the world. Ghosthotel posted:Saying that he just goes with his gut is a really weird reading of the character. He has a very defined set of morals and values that lead him to his decision at the end. Whereas Veidt thinks he’s operating in some brain level moral grey area, Rorschach sees the world purely in terms of good and evil/black and white. His refusal to be complicit in the mass murder of millions is reflective of that. I think we're in the middle of establishing that Sister Night is going to serve a similar function in the show, in that she's someone who sees things as good vs. evil and who will balk at the idea of murdering millions, no matter how noble the motivation appears to be. Doesn't she actually say something about the world being in "black and white" in the season preview? edit: Klungar posted:"The Watchmaker's Son" wouldn't be a tragedy in five acts if the character didn't change somewhat along the way. There is no way that omnipotent timeless Dr. Manhattan is still just dicking around making sandcastles on Mars after 34 years in the face of being party to the murder of millions and being made a social pariah to facilitate it. He said he was going to gently caress off to create life of his own, and whoever this mystery character is, that's what they seem to have done. Maybe it's just Veidt and some clones or robots or what have you, but that seems too simple for the mystery they've put behind this character and the twist behind his identity they seem to be setting up. I agree with the bolded bit, but I think the fact that the sandcastle appears to be a replica of Veidt's manor suggests that he's not just dicking around. I think the fact that there's BREAKING NEWS coverage about Dr. Manhattan building sandcastles on Mars is a sign that he has not been doing that for the past 34 years. If that's all he's been doing for 34 years, it wouldn't be breaking news, would it? I interpreted that news coverage to mean that this might be the first time people have seen Dr. Manhattan in a while, and that his return is connected to whatever Veidt is doing. Blotto_Otter fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 16:17
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I think Moore's view on the morality of Veidt's actions is made pretty clear through Tales of the Black Freighter. Doesn't Veidt even say he dreams of swimming towards a gigantic pirate ship?
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Oct 22, 2019 16:17
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Ghosthotel posted:Saying that he just goes with his gut is a really weird reading of the character. He has a very defined set of morals and values that lead him to his decision at the end. Whereas Veidt thinks he’s operating in some brain level moral grey area, Rorschach sees the world purely in terms of good and evil/black and white. His refusal to be complicit in the mass murder of millions is reflective of that. Alastor_the_Stylish posted:And Rorscach is the one who actually sacrifices his life for his convictions. Veidt will sacrifice millions of other lives before giving anything of his own. He's the hero of the story. Lives in squalor while both defying and fighting for society. Martyrs himself at the end for no real reason. Proto-fascist jesus.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:22
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If your takeaway from the ending was that he got himself killed for no real reason I think you may need to reread the comic lmao
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Oct 22, 2019 16:36
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ElNarez posted:Another thing I was thinking about regarding symbolism and motifs and all that pretentious stuff is the notion of "black and white" and how that plays in the show. The film is in black and white, the Kavalry wear Rorschach's black and white mask, Sister Night wears black and white (and beats up a guy on the other side of a bathroom door, very specifically calling back to Rorschach's prison escape from the comic), Panda is wearing black and white and he's really invested in not letting the cops have guns unless they really really need to. I'm thinking obviously there's a pattern but as for what it means I'm not sure yet. The black and white thing is something Lindelof played with before in Lost.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:50
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Ghosthotel posted:If your takeaway from the ending was that he got himself killed for no real reason I think you may need to reread the comic lmao There was a reason for the emotionless blue god to kill him. His stubborn defiance made him a martyr in front of the reader only. He just rather wanted to die than live with the secret.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:54
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Mercrom posted:He's pretty consistent and against compromise but his views are not thought out. That's what I mean by saying he goes with his gut.l He writes a journal about his views and there's a long sequence where he explains exactly what he believes in and why to a psychiatrist.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:55
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Necrothatcher posted:He writes a journal about his views and there's a long sequence where he explains exactly what he believes in and why to a psychiatrist. I just interpreted the childish nihilism as a stream of conscience outlet for his anger. I can't imagine anyone coming up with those beliefs in real life any other way.
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Oct 22, 2019 17:07
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You’ve established that you think Veidt did the right thing in your initial post so what this boils down to is that Rorschach is crazy and goes only on impulse because he decides to not be complicit in genocide.
Ghosthotel fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 17:08
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Here we go... how long till the next episode?
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Oct 22, 2019 17:10
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