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Moriatti posted:Mike Mearls post here? I'm not familiar with who that is so I can't retort really But I can self-advocate with what I've posted of my own work, and all the GURPS I've played (plus In Nomine) leaves me vouching for more rules-optional and small catered kits of design, and I think Pokemon would work great with a good 33% system 66% narrative setup that tries to capture the most emotional beats and ideas from the game and show the entire fukken point is IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE and you're smashing the table because that's like gently caress you 300 damage gently caress YOU, MEWTWO we did it psyduck you and me, gently caress the world
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Oct 22, 2019 03:08
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Elfgames posted:y'all are trying to hard to adapt pokemnon systems to a tg space. in a ttrpg you don't need ev's to make a pokemon unique because you can actually give the pokemon a personality Tuxedo Catfish is the only one who said pokemon should have a crunchy RPG game because the draw of the video games is its extensive series of interlinking subsystems and rules. Personally, I think most of the "engaging systems" outside of obvious mechanics that have analog equivalents like rock-paper-scissors type matching and consumable items, particularly the noncombat stuff and scaling bonuses, would require extensive revision to avoid getting bogged down in massive algebra equations. And at that point they're inevitably losing a lot of the crunchy core that makes those systems appealing to the fans of the games that have mastered them. Gamma World seems fine. I could see how Panic at the Dojo would work well with pokemon, too, but no matter what it's impossible to make a playable pokemon game if you're migrating over too much of the "core". Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 03:12
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Black August posted:I'm not familiar with who that is so I can't retort really Lead designer of D&D 5e. Anyhow, I think that there is a certain subset of people (me, for instance) who enjoy Pokemon because of it's crunchy combat nature, both in the card and video game. Especially since, while some poo poo (directly adapting EVs as they exist in the game, all the random drops) wouldn't translate, some of it (consistent movesets that have differing effects, customization of abilities on your monster, type effectiveness) really do translate well. Honestly, look at the 2018 world championship finals match for either VGC or TCG and you can see why people would want a crunchy system to adapt a franchise full of them.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:23
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Moriatti posted:Lead designer of D&D 5e. Sure My ethos is build a complete Lite-style skeleton base, and then toolkit add ons of specific rules that has a heavy emphasis on narrative to begin with, that you can add crunch into with choice I also like crunch, I like 3d6 tables that blossom into 3d6 tables so you can get a cheap gambler's superhigh when you somehow fractal into 3 3's in a row which might translate into a shiny psyduck with x10 stat multipliers, but think those should be optional snap-ons so you can mix and match the kind of crunch you're all after
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Oct 22, 2019 03:30
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I mean, there's definitely a place for random tables in Pokemon, but I think a lot of the appeal is consistency of moves and how they synergize with abilities. There's something really satisfying in the video game about using Belly Drum on Snorlax to make him very strong, then using his gluttony and a 1/2 recovery berry to get over the immediate downside. Building a kit for him based around this is great. Knowing that I could've run him using a set centered around Curse, or Assault Vest instead is also satisfying. All three of those sets use mechanics to emphasize Snorlax's innate strengths. Just kinda making it all up is less so because there is no challenge, there is no poetry. You're not creating a world with rules, your playing Calvinball, and that's fun, but it's not the core appeal of Pokemon to me, and to many others. Pretending Calvinball is the end-all, be-all of RPGs is... Not correct.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:35
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One of the reasons I'm pushing for Digimon more, it's stuff is a lot less established in nature, and thus more amenable to changes as the format requires
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Oct 22, 2019 03:38
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I always did like Digimon better SkullGreymon was loving mindblowing to me at the time
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Oct 22, 2019 03:40
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drrockso20 posted:One of the reasons I'm pushing for Digimon more, it's stuff is a lot less established in nature, and thus more amenable to changes as the format requires Yeah, I think Digimon also has a lot more to work with in terms of story games since the cartoons have the Digivolutions explicitely tied to character growth.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:44
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Got impossibly steamed with my sister that the Season 1 ending did NOT involve every single Digimon going Mega to win in a short scene of supercool forms and a final attack it was still awesome
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Oct 22, 2019 03:46
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drrockso20 posted:One of the reasons I'm pushing for Digimon more, it's stuff is a lot less established in nature, and thus more amenable to changes as the format requires I think having satisfying rules for branching digivolutions would necessitate a high level of crunch, with different digivolutions needing different conditions and having all of those different Digimon feeling relatively balanced You’re right that there’s no real gameplay core that would need to be adapted closely though. I’m not sure how you’d adapt a Monster Raising game to tabletop, tbh. What was the name of that one that advertised on System Mastery?
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Oct 22, 2019 03:48
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Moriatti posted:Yeah, I think Digimon also has a lot more to work with in terms of story games since the cartoons have the Digivolutions explicitely tied to character growth. Not to mention Evolution is a much less rigid system in Digimon than it is in Pokemon
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Oct 22, 2019 03:48
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Black August posted:I always did like Digimon better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MhXy4R_e0k
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Oct 22, 2019 03:48
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Black August posted:Got impossibly steamed with my sister that the Season 1 ending did NOT involve every single Digimon going Mega to win in a short scene of supercool forms and a final attack The PSP Adventure game does literally this as its alternate ending.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:49
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In a perfect world there'd be a good tactical monster fighting tabletop rpg and a good rpg with the minimal rules in between you and having adventures with your monster friends because both would appeal to different aspects of the pokemon fanbase. Just like there's varying levels of technical war rpgs, and fantasy rpgs, and mech ones.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:55
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Moriatti posted:Yeah, I think Digimon also has a lot more to work with in terms of story games since the cartoons have the Digivolutions explicitely tied to character growth. the pokemon cartoon does that too 
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Oct 22, 2019 04:02
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Brother Entropy posted:the pokemon cartoon does that too Kind of sort of? Pokemon characters are more static by nature of their non-serialized format, where Digimon has different characters they follow throughout a season before moving to the next one. While Pokemon cartoon does have pokemon evolve because they love their trainer so much, they don't have like, Ash finally deciding to respect Misty as a person now that his abandonment issues are resolved and as he's now in-tune, Squirtle is able to finally move on.
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Oct 22, 2019 04:17
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yeah see that was incredible for a reveal since it had serious "Tai the gently caress did you do" vibes I thought Digimon power corruption was going to be a thing Covok posted:The PSP Adventure game does literally this as its alternate ending. WHAT
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Oct 22, 2019 04:18
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Black August posted:yeah see that was incredible for a reveal since it had serious "Tai the gently caress did you do" vibes It happened on other series, I remember Guilmon also going berserk and turning into Megidramon in Tamers
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Oct 22, 2019 04:24
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Also if you guys are focused on the narrative/storygame split then the TRPG needs to be based on either the vidya or the anime exclusively
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Oct 22, 2019 04:26
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Moriatti posted:Lead designer of D&D 5e. Lead designer of 5e and best friend to Nazis and rapists. You forgot the important part, though I'm sure that's not what you were implying with the comparison. Darwinism posted:I mean just admit that there's some intangible ~trainer bond~ effect that weakens if you don't spend tons of time with one specific poke-man and don't pretend like it's the video game where everyone can have storage lockers full of Pikachus That Can Punch God because they left the things at a combination daycare/sex party The solution here is clearly to reskin LANCER, with Trainer Levels instead of Pilot Levels and each mech being a different Pokemon. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 07:36
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Lemon-Lime posted:The solution here is clearly to reskin LANCER, with Trainer Levels instead of Pilot Levels and each mech being a different Pokemon. That would actually be a fantastic Pokemon Stadium-esque game
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Oct 22, 2019 08:02
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Black August posted:yeah see that was incredible for a reveal since it had serious "Tai the gently caress did you do" vibes Yeah, they added an extra dungeon right before the fight with Apocalymon. You go through a series of doors. Behind each door has a villain That Matters to one of the characters. The character has an epiphany. They Digimon warp digivolve in a original sequence. And then you have a boss battle. https://youtu.be/glEp54adU-s This is where the only walkthrough I can find online starts that sequence.
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Oct 22, 2019 12:49
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Almost every CRPG has a ton of mathematical operations "under the hood" that only a vanishingly small number of people would ever want to translate directly into a tabletop game. This is a simple fact, and it's gobsmacking that there was like a page-long argument about it.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:57
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I do wish sometimes there was a roguelike that used GURPS' ruleset
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Oct 22, 2019 17:13
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The other thing that is gobsmacking about this conversation is how much it misses the point of an RPG, which is to tell a collaborative story. It's like those PbtA hacks where the writer is like, "Oooh, I love X genre, I'm going to port that to AW!" So many of those games prove to be crap because the writer forgot to answer the most basic questions of an RPG: Who are the PCs? What challenges are they going to face, and what actions are they going to take to overcome those challenges? How will those actions drive the story? What does their opposition look like, and how does it change as the characters progress? For that matter, what does character progression look like? Is it "number go up," or does it shape narrative? What social contract will cement the PCs together, and how will their collaboration influence the direction of the story. You can spend as much time and effort as you want replicating breeding and evolving and throwing excellent curve balls and whatever the gently caress else, but if your "character's" stats/actions boil down to "throw balls" and "uh, fight monsters with other monsters, I guess," then you're going to have a garbage RPG. Not all genres port cleanly, and some are better left as computer or card games.
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Oct 22, 2019 17:14
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Ilor posted:The other thing that is gobsmacking about this conversation is how much it misses the point of an RPG, which is to tell a collaborative story. It's like those PbtA hacks where the writer is like, "Oooh, I love X genre, I'm going to port that to AW!" So many of those games prove to be crap because the writer forgot to answer the most basic questions of an RPG: Who are the PCs? What challenges are they going to face, and what actions are they going to take to overcome those challenges? How will those actions drive the story? What does their opposition look like, and how does it change as the characters progress? For that matter, what does character progression look like? Is it "number go up," or does it shape narrative? What social contract will cement the PCs together, and how will their collaboration influence the direction of the story. Pfft, maybe these morons working on EVs and breeding calculations and poo poo don't have an RPG core. Meanwhile I, a certified brain genius, am three quarters of the way through my Dread hack Cock Block Brock where the goal of the game is to stop Brock from fuckin' and we lose when the tower falls and one of finally slips in our vigilant guarding of nurses from Brock.
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Oct 22, 2019 17:36
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Ilor posted:The other thing that is gobsmacking about this conversation is how much it misses the point of an RPG, which is to tell a collaborative story. It's like those PbtA hacks where the writer is like, "Oooh, I love X genre, I'm going to port that to AW!" So many of those games prove to be crap because the writer forgot to answer the most basic questions of an RPG: Who are the PCs? What challenges are they going to face, and what actions are they going to take to overcome those challenges? How will those actions drive the story? What does their opposition look like, and how does it change as the characters progress? For that matter, what does character progression look like? Is it "number go up," or does it shape narrative? What social contract will cement the PCs together, and how will their collaboration influence the direction of the story. “Fighting monsters with other monsters” is baked into the entire genre, it’s not weird to wonder how you make a fundamental part of the genre feel satisfying to play. Like, you don’t need to think too hard about how to solve a particular problem in a genre where the answer 8/10 times is “I fight it with my monster”
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Oct 22, 2019 17:48
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Imagine - Pokemon, but they're used more like Stands, gaining unique individual powers depending on who they bond with and how
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Oct 22, 2019 17:53
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thetoughestbean posted:Like, you don’t need to think too hard about how to solve a particular problem in a genre where the answer 8/10 times is “I fight it with my monster” In fairness, in many D&D games and similar the answer is usually "I fight it with my adventurer"
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Oct 22, 2019 17:58
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Black August posted:Imagine - Pokemon, but they're used more like Stands, gaining unique individual powers depending on who they bond with and how There are a few fan hacks of Persona out there, but they're all half finished
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Oct 22, 2019 19:49
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Black August posted:Imagine - Pokemon, but they're used more like Stands, gaining unique individual powers depending on who they bond with and how Nuns with Guns posted:There are a few fan hacks of Persona out there, but they're all half finished
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Oct 22, 2019 19:58
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It seems to me that your average Pokemon narrative is basically a pilgrimage story, what with all the focus on traveling unemployed nobodies having episodic hijinks while they check off milestones in the pursuit of a climatic destination. As such, a good Pokemon ttRPG would probably look a lot more like Ryuutama than D&D or GURPS or whatever.
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Oct 22, 2019 20:08
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Haystack posted:It seems to me that your average Pokemon narrative is basically a pilgrimage story, what with all the focus on traveling unemployed nobodies having episodic hijinks while they check off milestones in the pursuit of a climatic destination. As such, a good Pokemon ttRPG would probably look a lot more like Ryuutama than D&D or GURPS or whatever.
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Oct 22, 2019 20:10
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thetoughestbean posted:“Fighting monsters with other monsters” is baked into the entire genre, it’s not weird to wonder how you make a fundamental part of the genre feel satisfying to play. If you want the Pokémon experience, why not, you know, just play Pokémon? It sort of defines its own genre (really well, I might add).
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Oct 22, 2019 21:18
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Pokemon (or a monster battler, generally) does seem like it would make for a good big board game, where you can build a team? Not quite a TTRPG, but something where you can have a themed team or angle for your favorites, and build combat teams that work well together.
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Oct 22, 2019 21:25
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What's wrong with Pokethulhu anyway?
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Oct 22, 2019 21:30
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Joe Slowboat posted:Pokemon (or a monster battler, generally) does seem like it would make for a good big board game, where you can build a team? Not quite a TTRPG, but something where you can have a themed team or angle for your favorites, and build combat teams that work well together. dang, maybe some kind of tabletop game involving cards, you could have cards for the different pokemons and stuff that'd be convenient for keeping track of their stats
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Oct 22, 2019 21:39
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Needlessly turning eveything into an RPG has been a cornerstone of the RPG industry since D20. It was also a thing before that, but licensed properties like Ghostbusters and D6 Star Wars were actually good and cool.
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Oct 22, 2019 21:49
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That's because both of those games were willing to tinker with the core premise to make them more RPGable.
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Oct 22, 2019 21:50
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theironjef posted:Pfft, maybe these morons working on EVs and breeding calculations and poo poo don't have an RPG core. Meanwhile I, a certified brain genius, am three quarters of the way through my Dread hack Cock Block Brock where the goal of the game is to stop Brock from fuckin' and we lose when the tower falls and one of finally slips in our vigilant guarding of nurses from Brock. I'd play this. I'm not sure with who, but I'd find a goddamn group.
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Oct 22, 2019 21:58
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