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I think when you base an RPG off a pre-existing franchise, ideally you're converting a setting, and free to create game mechanics that support a role-playing game in that setting, shaping them to emphasize the themes and conflicts that make that setting compelling. That's often not been done well of course, but there's nothing inherent in most movie/tv/book settings that prohibit creating some kind of RPG based on them. What I've gathered from skimming like five pages of Pokemon chat is that people just want a tabletop fighting game, not really an RPG. Like you could make an RPG where you can roleplay a pikachu or a charizard or (that's the limit of my knowledge of pokemon names) whatever, and then go on adventures and have encounters and pretend what it's like to be a pokemon? Or I guess as a pokemon owner? Do three to five pokemon owners hang around together and solve problems and go on adventures and investigate mysteries? Are there character archetypes or different jobs or anything specific to the setting that would make such a character compelling, aside from [what kind of sword they use/what brand of gun they bought] what kind of pokemon they own? I genuinely don't know, but I've seen nothing in the last few pages about those things, it all seems to be about whether or not you can adapt the specific mechanics of pokemon training and fighting to work as a game, and... that's already been done. It sounds like a fighting game rather than an RPG to me. A fighting game that I'm pretty sure my nephews already play, with cards.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:12
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Leperflesh posted:I genuinely don't know, but I've seen nothing in the last few pages about those things, it all seems to be about whether or not you can adapt the specific mechanics of pokemon training and fighting to work as a game, and... that's already been done. It sounds like a fighting game rather than an RPG to me. A fighting game that I'm pretty sure my nephews already play, with cards.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:17
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Black August posted:Imagine - Pokemon, but they're used more like Stands, gaining unique individual powers depending on who they bond with and how Pretty much describing how Digimon goes in the Animes and Manga* *everyone here should go read V-Tamer 01, as it's one of the single best things to come out of the franchise Also to the people who are suggesting we're doing the wrong thing by focusing on how to implement mechanically things like battle systems and evolution mechanics rather than more roleplay oriented stuff, well to be frank the latter is something that literally almost every RPG in existence already covers to at least some extent, it's kinda pointless to reinvent the wheel there, meanwhile that other stuff(especially regarding evolution mechanics) is actually pretty important to nailing the feel of the genre
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Oct 22, 2019 22:47
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Again, there's no point in adapting the pokemon games where you catch and train pokemon to beat bosses to tabletop. They're already gamified. You want to adapt the anime/manga, where characters and their pokemon buddies have random adventures and make friends in order to overcome difficulties.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:50
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fool_of_sound posted:Again, there's no point in adapting the pokemon games where you catch and train pokemon to beat bosses to tabletop. They're already gamified. You want to adapt the anime/manga, where characters and their pokemon buddies have random adventures and make friends in order to overcome difficulties. pokemon games have characters who have adventures and make friends and overcome difficulties though? i really don't get why people keep trying to draw lines in the sand about what pokemon property should/shouldn't be doable in an rpg. they're not so radically different that you can't find a good middle
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Oct 22, 2019 22:55
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Brother Entropy posted:pokemon games have characters who have adventures and make friends and overcome difficulties though? Neither the player characters nor pokemon in the games have meaningful personalities. They're just an avatar and statsticks you throw at npcs with one sentence personalities opposing statsticks.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:56
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I don't see why they are exclusive personally. poo poo, moves that are unlocked via Bonds with your monster literally are in the video games, and called z-moves
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Oct 22, 2019 23:06
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I mean Ash beats Brock by finally coming to an understanding with pikachu, then going and super charging him with an old bike generator. The way power is gained and progress is made, the entire story structures, are completely different.
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Oct 22, 2019 23:14
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Brother Entropy posted:pokemon games have characters who have adventures and make friends and overcome difficulties though? Sure, but they're not the player.
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Oct 22, 2019 23:20
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fool_of_sound posted:Neither the player characters nor pokemon in the games have meaningful personalities. They're just an avatar and statsticks you throw at npcs with one sentence personalities opposing statsticks. 'just an avatar and statstick' is every tabletop character before you sit down to the first session and start roleplaying
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Oct 22, 2019 23:57
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bro this is a different game this is PTU this isn't the videogame different game it won't give you EV training just try it bro
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Oct 23, 2019 00:03
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The impression I'm getting here is that half the members present don't understand Pokemon at all, and the other half doesn't understand RPG design at all.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:13
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Brother Entropy posted:'just an avatar and statstick' is every tabletop character before you sit down to the first session and start roleplaying
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Oct 23, 2019 00:14
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Ilor posted:Not convinced. Most good RPGs have ways to bind backstory into the narrative that are more than just "number before numbers go up." nothing i've said disagrees with this
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Oct 23, 2019 00:16
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Brother Entropy posted:'just an avatar and statstick' is every tabletop character before you sit down to the first session and start roleplaying Uh no. Most games have ways of tying your character to other PCs and the world at large. I'm pretty sure you know this.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:21
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Halloween Jack posted:Okay, now you're just trolling me I was making a joke about how that description is basically Persona but now I'm longing for a finished Persona/Shin Megami Tensei type RPG too...
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Oct 23, 2019 00:23
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Voidheart Symphony is getting kickstarted presently for the Persona side of SMT games.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:24
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fool_of_sound posted:Uh no. Most games have ways of tying your character to other PCs and the world at large. I'm pretty sure you know this. okay so put that in the pokemon game? this doesn't really have anything to do with my point that the games and anime aren't radically different enough that you have to choose one or the other in making a pokemon tabletop game
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Oct 23, 2019 00:27
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fool_of_sound posted:Uh no. Most games have ways of tying your character to other PCs and the world at large. I'm pretty sure you know this. Old school games don't. You have some pokemon and you go into a dungeon to find treasure and stronger pokemon. Fuckin' get some stats and go fight poo poo and navigate and explore. That's not the same as wanting to play the card game. Acting like someone who wants that obviously just wants a board game is being wilfully dense.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:28
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Mr. Maltose posted:Voidheart Symphony is getting kickstarted presently for the Persona side of SMT games. I'd like a normal SMT game instead because I'm sick of loving Persona.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:32
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i played around with the idea of an SMT hack for gamma world years ago when gamma world was still kinda new (more DDS than regular SMT i guess) but instead i decided to be really depressed and do nothing constructive with my life for years
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Oct 23, 2019 00:34
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Brother Entropy posted:okay so put that in the pokemon game? this doesn't really have anything to do with my point that the games and anime aren't radically different enough that you have to choose one or the other in making a pokemon tabletop game It's about how stories are told and power is gained, like I said. In the games you gain power by defeating trainers and wild pokemon in battle. Almost all problems are resolved via combat (with a few via riding/HMs), and if you cannot succeed, the answer is to go do more combat with weaker stuff until you have become strong enough to do so. In the anime/manga, you gain power by building trust and having adventures with your pokemon. While there is substantial combat, not all stories are or can be resolved through combat. Navigating difficult terrain, encountering temporary allies and travelling with them for a while, and helping people in need solve their problems are all stories worth telling, that an adaptation of the games isn't focused on. When you cannot overcome a problem, characters retreat, examine and reaffirm relationships with each other, their pokemon, and their temporary allies in order to develop new techniques that they use to defeat previously insurmountable obstacles. Basically, the more focus there is on bringing over combat mechanics from the video games, the more you're just making a simplified tabletop version of the videogame, and less you're making a roleplaying game based in the pokemon setting. Jimbozig posted:Old school games don't. You have some pokemon and you go into a dungeon to find treasure and stronger pokemon. Fuckin' get some stats and go fight poo poo and navigate and explore. That's not the same as wanting to play the card game. Acting like someone who wants that obviously just wants a board game is being wilfully dense. I mean, I guess there's potential design space for 'pokemon, the dungeon crawler' but I'm genuinely not sure why that wouldn't be handled better as a board game, or even just the video game. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 00:35
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Mr. Maltose posted:Voidheart Symphony is getting kickstarted presently for the Persona side of SMT games. I'm well aware but it's a very distinct modification of Persona 5's "raid the dungeon=enact systemic change" filtered through Rhapsody of Blood's mechanics. It does not have Personae as distinct manifestations the players control, or the JRPG-style combat mechanics, and the only way the tarot major arcana come into play is through Covenants as an analog to the social links in Persona. This isn't to say it needs all of those because it stands perfectly fine as-is, but something a bit closer than that is what I had in mind.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:39
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fool_of_sound posted:It's about how stories are told and power is gained, like I said. all you've basically said is 'you gain exp in different ways and there should be non-combat mechanics', neither of which is at odds with the combat systems in the games
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Oct 23, 2019 00:43
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Absolutely fair. Personally I’m waiting for a tabletop adaption of the Last Good Persona Game, Persona 2.
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Oct 23, 2019 00:45
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Mr. Maltose posted:Absolutely fair. Personally I’m waiting for a tabletop adaption of the Last Good Persona Game, Persona 2. 'i would like to negotiate with the demon' [everyone at the table groans as the GM pulls out the 20x20 spreadsheet, contemplating death]
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Oct 23, 2019 00:46
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Brother Entropy posted:all you've basically said is 'you gain exp in different ways and there should be non-combat mechanics', neither of which is at odds with the combat systems in the games Not really but whatever
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Oct 23, 2019 00:46
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It’s a little weird to see the argument that an rpg system that primarily focuses on combat might as well just be a board game when games like D&D 4e are pretty much just systems for combat and are widely loved by the folks here
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Oct 23, 2019 01:13
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Brother Entropy posted:all you've basically said is 'you gain exp in different ways and there should be non-combat mechanics', neither of which is at odds with the combat systems in the games Put simply, the page count devoted to each of its various subsystems speaks volumes on what your game is about and how players will be spending their time at the tabletop. So if you're not going to dedicate serious space to these other mechanics needed to, you know, tell a collaborative story rather than just play fight-games, you're probably better off with a card or computer game.
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Oct 23, 2019 01:24
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thetoughestbean posted:It’s a little weird to see the argument that an rpg system that primarily focuses on combat might as well just be a board game when games like D&D 4e are pretty much just systems for combat and are widely loved by the folks here
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Oct 23, 2019 01:26
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Ilor posted:You're not wrong, and I would actually posit that D&D hasn't been about role-playing since 3E was launched, and that in its current form it is at best a fantasy tac-sim game with the merest nod to its origins. i mean, it's origin was 'tabletop wargame'
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Oct 23, 2019 01:30
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I think there’s also a difference between a CCG and a board game and a Pokémon board game would be a lot of fun. Something where you capture your way across a league, racing your rival players to take down the champ. I don’t think the card game really does that? I admit, I don’t really want a TTRPG of Pokémon, but somewhere between that and an RPG seems cool?
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Oct 23, 2019 01:33
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Joe Slowboat posted:I think there’s also a difference between a CCG and a board game and a Pokémon board game would be a lot of fun. Something where you capture your way across a league, racing your rival players to take down the champ. I don’t think the card game really does that? There was a board game that did that, actually. I don’t know if it was good or not, I never played it
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Oct 23, 2019 01:36
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fool_of_sound posted:
So like in your mind there is no real reason why anyone should play a dungeon crawling RPG at all anymore? Now that we have Gloomhaven and tons of good dungeon videogames, there's no point?
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Oct 23, 2019 01:43
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Ilor posted:Except that all of the time and page-space you spend modeling those combat systems is time and page space you're not spending on other stuff. Pokemon is already an IP with a ton of inherent crunch, so unless you're planning on putting out a 1000+ page rulebook, your equivocation is either completely missing the point or intentionally disingenuous. Pathfinder 2e is 995 pages for the core rules, and that could work fine for a Pokemon RPG. One book with all the rules and moves, and then you have a starter pokedex with the first 152, build up from there. And that's definitely a big enough IP you can sell two meaty rulebooks as a basic buy-in.
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Oct 23, 2019 01:45
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Ilor posted:Except that all of the time and page-space you spend modeling those combat systems is time and page space you're not spending on other stuff. Pokemon is already an IP with a ton of inherent crunch, so unless you're planning on putting out a 1000+ page rulebook, your equivocation is either completely missing the point or intentionally disingenuous. kinda sounds like you're the one being disingenuous here, plenty of other tabletop games have managed to have crunchy combat and roleplay mechanics without one gobbling up the other like, this is rapidly approaching 4e-era grognardery where combat and roleplay are treated like a zero sum game and 4e was worse for roleplaying than 3.5 because it had more involved combat that couldn't be easily skipped over
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Oct 23, 2019 01:50
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I started reading PTU again because of this and it seems pretty drat fun, and I want to run a game of it now. How it answers the questions we have posited in the thread is by giving pokemon tutor points which are an abstraction of your ability to teach it then making your player characters spend time teaching them. A lot of stuff is done that lets you teach them techniques, train them and teach them moves. There seem to be neat synergies too, and there is a clear amount of effort put into the game. I might suggest giving it a scan. thetoughestbean posted:There was a board game that did that, actually. I don’t know if it was good or not, I never played it Master Trainer is bad, basically a roll to hit game with very few actual decisions.
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Oct 23, 2019 01:52
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Ilor posted:Except that all of the time and page-space you spend modeling those combat systems is time and page space you're not spending on other stuff. Pokemon is already an IP with a ton of inherent crunch, so unless you're planning on putting out a 1000+ page rulebook, your equivocation is either completely missing the point or intentionally disingenuous. Ilor posted:You're not wrong, and I would actually posit that D&D hasn't been about role-playing since 3E was launched, and that in its current form it is at best a fantasy tac-sim game with the merest nod to its origins. These are some amazingly pretentious posts
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Oct 23, 2019 01:53
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Jimbozig posted:So like in your mind there is no real reason why anyone should play a dungeon crawling RPG at all anymore? Now that we have Gloomhaven and tons of good dungeon videogames, there's no point? For the most part yea? I feel that the core tradeoff of refinement of design, speed of play, and reduction in setup and planning time (and sometimes lack of GM requirement) vs more extensive customizability of encounters and dungeons falls strongly in favor of the board/video/card game if roleplaying is going to be a light or non-existent element.
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Oct 23, 2019 02:01
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Ilor posted:Except that all of the time and page-space you spend modeling those combat systems is time and page space you're not spending on other stuff. Pokemon is already an IP with a ton of inherent crunch, so unless you're planning on putting out a 1000+ page rulebook, your equivocation is either completely missing the point or intentionally disingenuous. Ilor posted:You're not wrong, and I would actually posit that D&D hasn't been about role-playing since 3E was launched, and that in its current form it is at best a fantasy tac-sim game with the merest nod to its origins. I mean if your defining trait of being about roleplaying is Real estate of mechanical combat rules to role playing stuff then no version of D&D has ever been about Role playing.
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Oct 23, 2019 02:02
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