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everdave posted:I do have a multi meter (cheap free ones from harbor freight). Don't hold this while doing work on live wall-voltage/current things. If it decides that today is the day then it's going to explode.  If you want to do more than low voltage work I would snag a slightly more expensive Extech off Amazon which won't make you flinch every time you jam it into an outlet. While you're there grab a non-contact voltage detector. I'm not saying the extech is super safe, but it has a real fuse in it and autoranging. It has yet to explode in my hands, but I never ever do current testing. It is UL listed (according to the sticker on mine) which I can almost guarantee your hazard fraught one is not.Something like this: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012VYKVQ/ and https://smile.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-NCVT-1-Non-Contact-Indicator/dp/B001UAHZAM/
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Oct 21, 2019 18:52
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everdave posted:The other 2 are 50 or 60a. Whoa! Regular outlets should be on 20 amp breakers max. Are you sure you read that right?
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Oct 21, 2019 19:05
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Nevets posted:Whoa! Regular outlets should be on 20 amp breakers max. Are you sure you read that right? I will take a pic tonight, no I am not sure but there are only three, stupid I don't have a pic already. Thanks for the tip H110Hawk, I thought I was being safe but I was testing very high voltage to make sure water heater was disconnected with one and one time it wasn't and the meter saved me but had no idea a meter could blow up
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Oct 21, 2019 19:15
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everdave posted:Thanks for the tip H110Hawk, I thought I was being safe but I was testing very high voltage to make sure water heater was disconnected with one and one time it wasn't and the meter saved me but had no idea a meter could blow up It's fine, those little freebies are just... junk. You were doing the right thing and you should keep doing it, and you don't have access (I presume...) to really high voltages (>600V, what all of these things are like "rated" to meter - I use quotes because I wouldn't touch 600V with this ExTech, even with its UL rating) in your house unless you start digging around in your hybrid/electric car past 1 or more warning labels. The highest number you're likely to see anywhere is 240V across the phases in your box. I burned up 2 of them I got for free trying to meter out a 12v fuse in my prius, threw them in the trash and got this extech, it's been solid since. I wouldn't use it as an electrician but for a home hobbiest who replaces the occasional outlet its perfect.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:22
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I post this regularly about meters: Skip to 5:25 to see a HF meter get tested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEoazQ1zuUM Keep watching to see a Fluke get tested. Cheap meters are ok for low voltage DC, but there's no way I'd use one on 120VAC. An Extech, Amprobe, Uni-T or Fluke is well worth the $50-$100.
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Oct 21, 2019 20:03
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Sounds like I will not be touching household electrical with one of these meters again! I have like 3 of them still sealed, am I safe with them testing car electrical stuff like battery/alternator and relays? I have tons of cars
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Oct 21, 2019 20:29
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everdave posted:Sounds like I will not be touching household electrical with one of these meters again! Yeah, they're totally fine for that. I keep them around in emergency tool boxes and stuff. But I go back to my basic old Fluke I've had for about a million years or the used Extech with a DC clamp meter for line voltage. (the DC clamp is freaking awesome for diagnosing parasitic draw on cars, FYI).
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Oct 21, 2019 20:39
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Motronic posted:Yeah, they're totally fine for that. I keep them around in emergency tool boxes and stuff. Good to know. And even to me it sounds like a mental illness but I have like $50k+ of imported cars to work on and sell and these little items I need like $100 in cleaning supplies or a new battery or a $60 ozone generator or a $50 multi meter I am having a hard time not just going to Amazon and ordering. I know it is weird and bizarre but having a hard time pulling the trigger.
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Oct 21, 2019 20:45
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Yup, they're fine for car stuff, but check the voltage accuracy. I've gotten ones that show 15V on a 12v lab supply, which makes them useless for testing say, an alternator. A 9v battery is a great test device, they're pretty much dead nuts 9V unless they're dead. Check out EEVBlog for budget meter recommendations. Dave has a bunch of reviews and shootouts in various price points. For example: Fluke 101 Basic Digital Multimeter Pocket Portable Meter Equipment Industrial https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JT5RUUU/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_p1GRDbXW4T1VC No amperage measurements, no trueRMS, but $40, and true CATIII. sharkytm fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Oct 21, 2019 |
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Oct 21, 2019 20:54
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everdave posted:Good to know. If you want to go up a bit: https://www.amazon.com/Extech-MA445-True-Clamp-Meter/dp/B01IB4N3YG/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=dc+clamp+meter&qid=1571688196&sr=8-12 If you've ever tried to track down parasitic draw gremlins in new cars and know how the ECUs "wake up" when the battery is first connected so your reading are off and wished there was a way to just let the drat this sit without connecting the battery back to the car through your meter - this is it. Throw that thing around a battery cable and just take a reading. No disconnecting necessary.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:05
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Motronic posted:If you want to go up a bit: https://www.amazon.com/Extech-MA445-True-Clamp-Meter/dp/B01IB4N3YG/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=dc+clamp+meter&qid=1571688196&sr=8-12 I was looking at a RMS clamp meter recently and the reviews on the Extech ones are really mixed, I assume you like yours well enough? I just pulled the cover off mine, and it is indeed a cheapy little fuse - 0.25A/250V with a UL stamp embossed into the metal cap. Again, I wouldn't use this for in-line current measurement that wasn't off say 2-4 1.5V AA batteries nor would I hook it up to more than household voltages. (And no, I don't consider the output on your fluorescent ballast to be "household" - don't do it. ) Edit: That's on a 50A breaker, but I've put it straight across the lugs on my panel with a 100A breaker. It's either going to go or not, note I'm not using the "unfused 10A" plug, tempted to just fill it in with epoxy. The right tools make these things easy to do, and I learned half of what I use here from this very thread to those coming along wondering how to not kill yourselves with electricity. 
H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Oct 21, 2019 |
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Oct 21, 2019 21:45
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Don't fill it in, just think about the setting before giving the probes to anything. It's right up there with "what size socket does this bolt take?"
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Oct 21, 2019 23:33
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H110Hawk posted:I was looking at a RMS clamp meter recently and the reviews on the Extech ones are really mixed, I assume you like yours well enough? I should have specified, that is what I found on amazon that looked like the current model. This is the old rear end thing I have:  Apparently it's not and the new version of this is like $200+ I got is used....I had no idea. Sorry, sorry.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:06
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Motronic posted:I should have specified, that is what I found on amazon that looked like the current model. This is the old rear end thing I have:  I mean sure I could raid my dad's drawer of assorted flukes too.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:22
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God drat, gently caress the wiring in my house. I don't think any of it is technically "wrong" (other than one outlet in my garage that had hot/neutral swapped that I then fixed) but it's maddening. First off, there's a single breaker that has way too many rooms on it. It has the living room...and my bedroom...and one of the other bedrooms...and the bathroom...and half my basement. Seriously, it's like 75% of my house. The only rooms that aren't on that circuit are the kitchen on its own breaker, the third bedroom on its own, and the porch and shed and remainder of the basement that share one. The other breakers are all dual-style for the stove, dryer, and then each room's electric heat registers have their own. I have unused breakers/"slots" in the panel (seems to be just 2, not a ton, but more than 0), so it's absurd that 4.5 different rooms and the garage are on one circuit. And then here's the spaghetti mess in my garage:  Where it enters, just for reference.  The romex that curves when it first comes in from the right is the line from the breaker...near as I can tell, it goes into that first box, and...then I sort of lose it. I got the general gist of where things go, but it's still crazy. The line seems to get split in either the first or second box to go down to an outlet just out of frame that's always on. The line going "towards" me on the ceiling is an always on to the garage door opener, the line then goes to the left to both an outlet, and a light switch. The switch controls three overhead lights, and three outlets that are split off those lights, two outlets on one wall about ten feet apart, and then the third outlet on the opposite wall. The outlets are only on when the switch/lights are on. The other lines from either the first and/or second box go to the two exterior lights. I tried to change one of the exterior lights to a motion sensor light, but the PO caulked the fixture to the round box, and just used a couple pieces of untreated wood up against the siding to attach to:  I can't remove the fixture from the box. I've cut all the caulk I can, scored it with the knife going into the slot, but it's on there good. I will have to cut it off the wire, but then I won't have enough slack to attach a new fixture, so I'll have to re-run it to the switch. Not hard, just annoying, really. I also got one of those proper siding pieces that have a notch in them to go flush against the siding to attach a fixture to. Seems like a better choice than a 1/2" thick piece of wood. DrBouvenstein fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 01:25
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So I have a pair of 12V UPS batteries that are attached via 10 gauge stranded wire to a grey anderson connector. I need to add about a foot of wire to these to be able to fit the batteries in. What should I use to splice some extra wire in? This is what I have currently:  It came from the factory this way, I don't think I have the necessary tools to be able to crimp another anderson connector on.
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Oct 23, 2019 02:27
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devicenull posted:So I have a pair of 12V UPS batteries that are attached via 10 gauge stranded wire to a grey anderson connector. I need to add about a foot of wire to these to be able to fit the batteries in. What should I use to splice some extra wire in? Is that grey thing actually crimped on? Look closely for something to release the wires. If so just make a new one to length, crimp on the ring terminals, and install it in the grey thing.
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Oct 23, 2019 02:31
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If that's an Anderson connector then yes, the terminals inside of it are crimped on. If you have at least a standard crimping tool, I'd cut the existing ring terminals off, use butt crimps to extend the wire, then crimp new ring terminals on. If you don't have that, then cut the wires mid length, and use solder and heat shrink to add extensions between the two crimped ends.
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Oct 23, 2019 03:46
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HEY it’s me workshop outlets not working guy. 3 breakers are 20/50/60amp. Only electrical is ceiling ancient fluorescent fixture and lots of outlets, though PO said wired for 220 but he was full of poo poo on lots of things and that’s been 12 years almost (there is a thick black cable not hooked up curled up around breaker box). I can find no gfci outlets even though that was supposedly required but I think they built this themselves.
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Oct 23, 2019 05:22
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If there are 50 and 60 amp breakers servicing regular 15 amp outlets they probably re-used old ones to save money. Either way that's a big fire hazard unless your main panel has the garage sub panel fused at 20 amps (which is possible but unlikely). Otherwise if something out there shorted and started drawing more than 20 amps the outlets or wire in the garage could start a fire. A picture of your main panel and garage subpanel would be really helpful.
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Oct 23, 2019 15:56
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Nevets posted:If there are 50 and 60 amp breakers servicing regular 15 amp outlets they probably re-used old ones to save money. Either way that's a big fire hazard unless your main panel has the garage sub panel fused at 20 amps (which is possible but unlikely). Otherwise if something out there shorted and started drawing more than 20 amps the outlets or wire in the garage could start a fire. My inside the house panel is from 1960 and has the circle glass fuses, I see no mention of workshop but original label is faded where you can barely read and the workshop was built way after, probably early-mid 2000's I got house in early 2008... I will take pictures of the workshop breaker box after work today
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Oct 23, 2019 17:49
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DrBouvenstein posted:one outlet in my garage that had hot/neutral swapped I am encountering a ton of this lately. I've been doing a lot of fixes from inspections for realtors and every other house has a reverse polarity issue. Multiple receptacles. I'm blaming the minimum wage workers at Lowes/Depot/etc and you tube.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:32
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Here’s a pic of the breaker box in my workshop
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Oct 24, 2019 04:36
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Ok, you have 2x separate 20 amp breakers there, and 1x double pole 50 amp and 1x double pole 60 amp breaker. Are you sure the outlets are controlled by one of the bigger breakers? Without seeing the inside of the panel I'd bet that the 50 amp powers that disconnected 240v circuit you mentioned, one 20 amp powers the lights, one 20 amp powers the outlets, and the 60 amp actually shutsoff power to the entire workshop subpanel.
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Oct 24, 2019 11:31
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Nevets posted:Ok, you have 2x separate 20 amp breakers there, and 1x double pole 50 amp and 1x double pole 60 amp breaker. Are you sure the outlets are controlled by one of the bigger breakers? This would be my bet as well.
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Oct 24, 2019 12:11
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DrBouvenstein posted:First off, there's a single breaker that has way too many rooms on it. It has the living room...and my bedroom...and one of the other bedrooms...and the bathroom...and half my basement. Seriously, it's like 75% of my house. The only rooms that aren't on that circuit are the kitchen on its own breaker, the third bedroom on its own, and the porch and shed and remainder of the basement that share one. The other breakers are all dual-style for the stove, dryer, and then each room's electric heat registers have their own. Quoting myself here...what would it take to get at least the garage on its own breaker? I can see the line going to the garage from the basement. It goes through the end joist on the inside. I haven't traced it back from there, but I suspect, since it shares a circuit with the living room and the living room is the closest room to the garage, that it likely goes back to the last outlet on the living room circuit. Assuming that's the case, I should be able to remove that outlet, disconnect the line to the garage, pull it back down to the basement area, and then simply run that line back to the panel and insert it into an empty breaker slot? My big question is if I have to run a 100% new, unbroken, line from the breaker to where it enters the first junction box in the garage, or can I run a line from the breaker to where the line to the garage would be after disconnecting it from the living room circuit and splice them together in a box?
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Oct 24, 2019 14:49
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DrBouvenstein posted:Quoting myself here...what would it take to get at least the garage on its own breaker? You have heard of the branch analogy for electric wiring, correct? I'll use some plant terminology. Each node is a box and each internode is a length of wire between boxes. You'd have to map out on paper at least the garage of that circuit. Hopefully, the garage is at the tip of a branch on that circuit. Otherwise, you will have to bypass it in order to place the garage separate while reconnecting the rest of the existing circuit. This will take a lot of running back to the breaker. Turn off the power. Disconnect the hot wire (just the hot, you can leave the neutrals and grounds alone) that you think is supplying the garage. Bend all the hot wires apart so they aren't touching each other or any metal in the box. Chase the kids and pets away. Turn the power back on. Go and see which boxes on that circuit are now off, ALL of them. This sounds like a big circuit. This should take awhile. If this cuts off anything besides the garage, then follow the branch into the garage and repeat. Keep updating that map.
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Oct 24, 2019 15:11
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kid sinister posted:You have heard of the branch analogy for electric wiring, correct? I'll use some plant terminology. Each node is a box and each internode is a length of wire between boxes. You'd have to map out on paper at least the garage of that circuit. Hopefully, the garage is at the tip of a branch on that circuit. Otherwise, you will have to bypass it in order to place the garage separate while reconnecting the rest of the existing circuit. Yeah, I am 90% sure the garage is the tip because the wiring to the garage done after the house was built (I think the whole garage was done some time after.) And there is one line going between the house and garage to supply power, nothing that then goes back inside from the garage that could power other circuits. But I will absolutely double check that there aren't any other outlets, fixtures, circuits that get disconnected. As to the other question? I can use a junction box to just splice a new line coming from the breaker to the line going to the garage, right?
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Oct 24, 2019 15:22
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You can splice a circuit as long as: 1. You use wire that's the same gauge 2. You use wire nuts / etc. that are rated for that wire 3. It's done in an accessible junction box Sounds like getting the garage separated should be fairly easy. The basement shouldn't be too bad either if it isn't finished, just find where the circuit branches off upstairs and disconnect it at that point, splice it onto a new wire and run that back to the panel. The bedrooms all being on together probably isn't as a big an issue as it was 10-20 years ago since phones and laptops now draw much less power than TV's and Desktops did back then. I'd worry about the bathroom not being on it's own circuit, though. Even assuming the outlet(s) are all GFCI and not wired to kill the entire circuit when it trips, you still have to worry about one hair dryer plunging most of you house into darkness.
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Oct 24, 2019 15:23
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Nevets posted:Ok, you have 2x separate 20 amp breakers there, and 1x double pole 50 amp and 1x double pole 60 amp breaker. Are you sure the outlets are controlled by one of the bigger breakers? So what is my next step? I do have one scorched/melted outlet (just one) but it has provided power for years still and the outlets stopping to function might have coincided with me accidentally leaving the weed eater battery charger plugged into that outlet (not the scorched one but the above one) for a matter of days. But again the breakers have not tripped. Is there anything I can safely test or do I just need to leave it to an electrician and spend $$$
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Oct 24, 2019 19:05
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everdave posted:So what is my next step? I do have one scorched/melted outlet (just one) but it has provided power for years still and the outlets stopping to function might have coincided with me accidentally leaving the weed eater battery charger plugged into that outlet (not the scorched one but the above one) for a matter of days. But again the breakers have not tripped. Is there anything I can safely test or do I just need to leave it to an electrician and spend $$$ You could go back to that meter discussion, get something appropriate for line voltage and start by testing the first outlet on that run. I assume you can see the romex and trace it from/to the outlet and panel.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:11
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Also, you said the 20 amp breaker felt weak/loose? If it's not clicking hard like the other one it might mean you still have a short somewhere and the breaker won't fully re-engage if that's the case.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:37
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Motronic posted:You could go back to that meter discussion, get something appropriate for line voltage and start by testing the first outlet on that run. I assume you can see the romex and trace it from/to the outlet and panel. Yes I can see all the white wiring run through the studs throughout the whole workshop. Easy as pie to see the wires ran to each outlet and touch it or do whatever to it. Nevets posted:Also, you said the 20 amp breaker felt weak/loose? If it's not clicking hard like the other one it might mean you still have a short somewhere and the breaker won't fully re-engage if that's the case. It "clicks" back and forth into place but it "wiggles" and feels loose in the actual breaker box if that makes sense, the 50 and 60 do not feel loose I truly appreciate all ya'lls advice And I need to slide over to the AC thread Motronic and ask a ton more stuff about my Japanese cars ha, don't ya love me!?
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Oct 24, 2019 20:00
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If it's loose in there you might have a serious problem, electrical arcing could have literally eaten away at the contacts and plastic housing that hold the breaker firmly in the panel.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:38
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Nevets posted:If it's loose in there you might have a serious problem, electrical arcing could have literally eaten away at the contacts and plastic housing that hold the breaker firmly in the panel. Should I turn all breakers off in there for now which I assume would shut off all power? I assume this is not something I should try to fix myself?
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Oct 24, 2019 21:50
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everdave posted:Should I turn all breakers off in there for now which I assume would shut off all power? Can't hurt. everdave posted:I assume this is not something I should try to fix myself? Honestly, this is all leading up to us needing to see inside that panel. And that's not something I'm going to suggest you do on your own since you don't have any prior experience or a clear way to kill all incoming power to that panel (from the house, assuming it's on one of those fuses - or two).
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Oct 24, 2019 21:58
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Motronic posted:Can't hurt. Noted, I'll turn them off, I don't get any light from the fluorescent fixture anyways BC the bulbs are burned out or halfway out. Will turn breakers off and look into getting an electrician out next week (taking oldest daughter camping for scouts all this weekend in the pouring rain if we make it the whole time) Thanks for advice
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Oct 24, 2019 22:23
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Nevets posted:If it's loose in there you might have a serious problem, electrical arcing could have literally eaten away at the contacts and plastic housing that hold the breaker firmly in the panel. ...or it could just be that the cover isn't adjusted flat enough to the breakers to hold them in. I ran into that one last week with brand new construction. I had to do some work. Flipping off a tandem breaker was enough to snap it out of its slots.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:31
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Still, without a reliable way to ensure that the panel is safe to open up and do work in, my advice would be to call a professional. Electricity can and will kill you if given the chance.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:34
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I'm not sure if this fits in this thread, but who cares. Today at work I opened an old(er) doorbell. It had this inside, mounted on kind of a wheel that moved with the hammer going towards the metal plates: It's a mercury tilt switch. You tilt it, the mercury flows over 2 contacts, closing your circuit. In the case of the doorbell that made the hammer go back. Before I look up how common these are, I wanted to share how impressed I am about putting mercury in a loving doorbell. So, what is your guess how much voltage/amps this thing can take?
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Oct 25, 2019 17:30
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