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So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking?
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Oct 24, 2019 05:04
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On Terra Firma posted:That's his gimmick. It's cool. He has his agenda and he's passionate about it. I just would prefer if we could be civil about it. I don't know him from Adam. So I don't assume to be rude to some stranger because of perceived anonymity. I thought we grew out of that poo poo in high school.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:08
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inkblottime posted:Don't be condescending to me just because you disagree. it's odder to think that big government and big tobacco have more in common than big tobacco and little tobacco. to think that there is a distinction in companies which peddle nicotine, you have to create an artifical cultural disconnect between the big, bad conglomerates and the small, good mom and pops which is definitely convenient for nicotine marketing purposes then again literal big tobacco propaganda is being repeated itt as if it were some noble fight for individual consumer rights (remember: capitalism can subsume all criticism within itself) and it's still an open question in this thread about if the regular consumption of addictive substances among kids is bad or not Solenna posted:So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking? ostensibly you wouldn't but folks like to threaten that they would in order to clamp down on positive public health moves. see, this thread is about public health, until it is suddenly about personal liberty. turns out addicts really don't like having their motivations challenged and don't always respond in a consistent way
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Oct 24, 2019 05:22
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Solenna posted:So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking? It sucks but you have to be an addict to know how it feels. Like coffee. Why the gently caress do we drink it? It tastes like poo poo yet it feels so good. So the taste kind of becomes the drug. Yet if you could get it without the taste it would better. And if you could get it without the dying from lung cancer that would be even better. To be honest I think I started smoking to self medicate and could not quit because I got to much out of it. I like coffee in the same way. A few years ago I moved to vaping because I wanted the high while lowering the health concerns. I still get checkups and if at some point I find my heart can't handle the nicotine I'll probably stop. As it is, like coffee, I enjoy it, especially in mint flavor and feel I have successfully lowered my risks. Enjoyment of a vice we have a hard time quantifying and it's highly subjective. That's why I take issue when people who don't understand think that it's stupid. I think Fast Food is stupid. Yet people keep getting obese on it. Now to be fair that's a complicated subject since income factors into getting cheap, unhealthy food but I think people would be kinda pissed if Fast Food was banned because the government felt it would be healthier for everyone to buy from the grocery store. I'm not trying to conflate that with vaping but rather the act of enjoying something that may have risks as a knowledgeable and consenting adult you partake in it. The poo poo big tobacco pulled is bullshit because people literally thought it was healthy. With vaping, we have nicotine, which we know can cause cardiovascular issues. I don't think anyone's trying to hide that. What is getting hidden is why the government is coming down so hard on vaping and not any other risks teens face today. I think it should be a concerted effort. Don't let teens vape, smoke, drink alcohol/coffee, etc. I don't think teens should be doing any of that. Juul? gently caress those guys. Yes they need to have their asses sued for the same poo poo they did back with cigarettes. But we're adults. Some of us smoked, got hooked, and maybe even enjoyed it. For me, this is a safer way to enjoy it, like I enjoy my cup of coffee in the morning. If you don't drink coffee? If you don't vape? I don't recommend you try it. I enjoy it.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:28
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inkblottime posted:What is getting hidden is why the government is coming down so hard on vaping and not any other risks teens face today. I think it should be a concerted effort. Don't let teens vape, smoke, drink alcohol/coffee, etc. I don't think teens should be doing any of that. Juul? gently caress those guys. Yes they need to have their asses sued for the same poo poo they did back with cigarettes. But we're adults. just checking in, but you know teens are not allowed to drink or smoke tobacco, right
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Oct 24, 2019 05:32
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luxury handset posted:it's odder to think that big government and big tobacco have more in common than big tobacco and little tobacco. to think that there is a distinction in companies which peddle nicotine, you have to create an artifical cultural disconnect between the big, bad conglomerates and the small, good mom and pops which is definitely convenient for nicotine marketing purposes You're acting like an rear end in a top hat. I would be more than happy to discuss with you the issues at hand but it seems like you've already made up your mind and will call anyone out who doesn't agree with you. There's big money in lobbying. Not so much is small businesses.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:32
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luxury handset posted:it's odder to think that big government and big tobacco have more in common than big tobacco and little tobacco. to think that there is a distinction in companies which peddle nicotine, you have to create an artifical cultural disconnect between the big, bad conglomerates and the small, good mom and pops which is definitely convenient for nicotine marketing purposes There is a massive distinction which has been explained at length which you choose to deliberately ignore. You do this every few pages and across multiple threads. quote:then again literal big tobacco propaganda is being repeated itt as if it were some noble fight for individual consumer rights (remember: capitalism can subsume all criticism within itself) and it's still an open question in this thread about if the regular consumption of addictive substances among kids is bad or not Nobody is quoting tobacco propaganda but that certainly hasn't stopped you from throwing the accusation around. I've repeated what health organizations and governments have said about the products and their relative risks. If you take issue with that take issue with the institutions that I'm quoting and referring to. Oh wait that's all just me being selective because I'm an "addict" even though the evidence is overwhelmingly clear. Too bad there isn't any science to support my position. quote:ostensibly you wouldn't but folks like to threaten that they would in order to clamp down on positive public health moves. see, this thread is about public health, until it is suddenly about personal liberty. turns out addicts really don't like having their motivations challenged and don't always respond in a consistent way You've been consistently smug and wrong so there's something to be said for that. Solenna posted:So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking? Almost all adults prefer flavors to "tobacco" which is still a flavor. It's one of the reasons people stick with it. They enjoy using it. Enjoyment is part of why it's worked so well as a cessation mechanism. Some people seem to take issue with people enjoying it. It's not just the ban on juice that would drive people back. It's conflating THC with nicotine and not clarifying which of the two is causing the lung illnesses and killing people. It's public health "experts" saying the jury is out on whether it's safer than smoking despite a decade of research saying otherwise. It's people getting up in congressional hearings and lying under oath in order to misrepresent studies and research groups. All of this leads people to believe it's no better or somehow worse than smoking. A ban is just another item on a long list of tactics people are using to demonize vaping nicotine. Most of it is bullshit and easily refutable and they know it. Maybe people won't go back to combustible products. I hope that's the case. It will most definitely put a halt to people thinking about switching or attempting to quit using ENDS or other reduced harm products. Some people seem to be okay with that. It's also going to lead to a lot of avoidable death and disease but hey whatever helps luxury handset sleep at night. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 05:36
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inkblottime posted:There's big money in lobbying. Not so much is small businesses. i really don't see any difference in altria and the vape shop down the road. both sell the same addictive substance. independent vape retailers have lobbying organizations too, and they have the same goals as phillip morris. i see no purpose in trying to pretend that there's some kind of large organizational collusion between government and tobacco firms that grassroots nicotine peddlers are somehow fighting against. this is the same kind of thinking that leads people to buy 'gently caress capitalism' tshirts from a mall
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Oct 24, 2019 05:36
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luxury handset posted:i really don't see any difference in altria and the vape shop down the road. both sell the same addictive substance. independent vape retailers have lobbying organizations too, and they have the same goals as phillip morris. i see no purpose in trying to pretend that there's some kind of large organizational collusion between government and tobacco firms that grassroots nicotine peddlers are somehow fighting against. this is the same kind of thinking that leads people to buy 'gently caress capitalism' tshirts from a mall Ignorance is bliss. If you don't want to find out the difference, that's your deal. But bashing your half baked theory against the wall over and over again isn't going to win you anything. If you got out and talked to the vape shop down the road, you might get some insight but I doubt it. You sound very stubborn in your resolve and you don't strike me as someone who compromises in a discussion.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:41
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luxury handset posted:i really don't see any difference in altria and the vape shop down the road. You don't see a difference between a large corporation with a history of lying to the public that has been killing millions of people for decades and shops that for the most part have been set up with the intention of getting people off of those products? loving really? quote:both sell the same addictive substance. independent vape retailers have lobbying organizations too, and they have the same goals as phillip morris. Small vape companies have the goal of restricting the market share to Altria and a hand full of other companies with a history of selling tobacco? News to me. quote:i see no purpose in trying to pretend that there's some kind of large organizational collusion between government and tobacco firms that grassroots nicotine peddlers are somehow fighting against. It's not about two parties colluding. It's about both groups pushing for a specific outcome for two very different reasons. The government wants to limit teen use and the uptake of new users and will use that as a cudgel to shut down large parts of the market. There's a bit of puritanism that you're going with that paints everyone as a troubled "addict" who needs to be told what to do. Altria wants to push everyone off the playing field except for them. They will get through the PMTA process, the smaller companies can't afford it. If the end result is the same then it doesn't really matter what the motivations are. We're already headed there and it's already happening and you don't seem to have a problem with this. If that's the case then you have more in common with large tobacco companies than I do. You have never once addressed this gap in your thinking.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:46
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inkblottime posted:Ignorance is bliss. If you don't want to find out the difference, that's your deal. But bashing your half baked theory against the wall over and over again isn't going to win you anything. If you got out and talked to the vape shop down the road, you might get some insight but I doubt it. You sound very stubborn in your resolve and you don't strike me as someone who compromises in a discussion. there's really no reason to compromise with people who can't even admit to themselves that they're in perfect agreement with big tobacco, but need to pretend that there is somehow some daylight between their opinions. it seems that public health is less important than personal convenience in substance as well as the appearance of token opposition to large corporations while happily consuming their products On Terra Firma posted:You don't see a difference between a large corporation with a history of lying to the public that has been killing millions of people for decades and shops that for the most part have been set up with the intention of getting people off of those products? loving really? once again you fall victim to the obviously hollow argument "i am selling you this addictive substance for your own good, trust me" this is why i keep calling you an addict, amigo
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Oct 24, 2019 05:51
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luxury handset posted:there's really no reason to compromise with people who can't even admit to themselves that they're in perfect agreement with big tobacco,  quote:but need to pretend that there is somehow some daylight between their opinions. it seems that public health is less important than personal convenience in substance as well as the appearance of token opposition to large corporations while happily consuming their products Please explain why the UK is approaching the issue incorrectly in promoting vaping as a cessation tool. There is nothing of substance in your position that I can see other than you hate people that use nicotine and will come up with any excuse to reinforce that view.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:55
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On Terra Firma posted:There is nothing of substance in your position that I can see other than you hate people that use nicotine and will come up with any excuse to reinforce that view. yes i know, i've already elaborated on the boundaries of your thought. of all the cycles we keep going through itt such as "why can't you admit you are repeating corporate marketing" and "yes, it is actually bad that teenagers use nicotine" and "you refuse to discuss scientific opinions which disagree with you while aggressively touting those that support you" and "it is really weird to accuse me of being an anti-nicotine moralist when i am a nicotine user", your inability to break out of these cycles is probably the only remaining perspective i have to share on this topic
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Oct 24, 2019 06:01
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luxury handset posted:yes i know, i've already elaborated on the boundaries of your thought. of all the cycles we keep going through itt such as "why can't you admit you are repeating corporate marketing" and "yes, it is actually bad that teenagers use nicotine" and "you refuse to discuss scientific opinions which disagree with you while aggressively touting those that support you" and "it is really weird to accuse me of being an anti-nicotine moralist when i am a nicotine user", your inability to break out of these cycles is probably the only remaining perspective i have to share on this topic So in other words you have nothing else to add to the discussion other than manhandling the thread?
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Oct 24, 2019 06:12
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luxury handset posted:yes i know, i've already elaborated on the boundaries of your thought. of all the cycles we keep going through itt such as "why can't you admit you are repeating corporate marketing" Because I'm not and pointed you to where I'm getting my information. If you think I'm repeating corporate marketing then so are a bunch of well respected health organizations and once again you conveniently ignore that part. quote:and "yes, it is actually bad that teenagers use nicotine" and "you refuse to discuss scientific opinions which disagree with you while aggressively touting those that support you" Yes I tend to err on the side of large systematic reviews and actual measurements of harm within users. My views on the relative risk of these products is only in line with fringe groups such as ::checks notes:: US National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, the RCP, British Medical Association, The British Lung foundation, Cancer Research UK, Public Health England, The Canadian Government, New Zealand Ministry of Health and countless others. I'm definitely on the fringe when it comes to what I put faith in.  quote:and "it is really weird to accuse me of being an anti-nicotine moralist when i am a nicotine user", your inability to break out of these cycles is probably the only remaining perspective i have to share on this topic Yeah persisting in your desire to argue in bad faith has been extremely helpful to the discourse so I'll be sad to see you go.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:13
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Solenna posted:So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking? Ultimately, I can't explain why I want to smoke a cigarette more than I would just like nicotine in some other form; I just do. It's subjective. Vaping is much closer to smoking in terms of being satisfying for me, compared to other forms of nicotine, but it's still shittier enough that I'd rather deal with full satisfaction and full harm. Also tobacco-flavoured vape juice tastes nothing like actually smoking tobacco, it's like inhaling the flavour of tobacco that's been soaking in a puddle for a while, and that's exactly as appealing as it sounds.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:29
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On Terra Firma posted:Yeah persisting in your desire to argue in bad faith has been extremely helpful to the discourse so I'll be sad to see you go. while you don't understand much of the things you say in this thread, you really don't understand what bad faith arguing is
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Oct 24, 2019 06:39
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^^^ Give it a rest. Getting personal doesn't help how you look here. ^^^PT6A posted:Also tobacco-flavoured vape juice tastes nothing like actually smoking tobacco, it's like inhaling the flavour of tobacco that's been soaking in a puddle for a while, and that's exactly as appealing as it sounds. Oh man. My first hit was tobacco and I immediately considered menthol which I never liked as a regular smoker. After that I tried a couple different tobacco flavors in the beginning, thinking that one of them had to be better and they all tasted like rear end. That was even back before they improved the tobacco flav--wait, no. It still tastes like rear end. I don't know where they got the numbers that most people preferred tobacco flavor before Juul came around. I don't know anyone who prefers it over literally any other flavor. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 06:46
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luxury handset posted:while you don't understand much of the things you say in this thread, you really don't understand what bad faith arguing is You say things that you and I both know are completely false yet you continue to say them. When confronted with any evidence that shows how and why you are incorrect you ignore it and move on to other lies or unsubstantiated claims.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:51
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inkblottime posted:That was even back before they improved the tobacco flav--wait, no. It still tastes like rear end. I don't know where they got the numbers that most people preferred tobacco flavor before Juul came around. I don't know anyone who prefers it over literally any other flavor. There is no data to back up the claim everyone was using tobacco prior to Juul. It is completely wrong and the opposite has been well documented going back years and years.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:52
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On Terra Firma posted:There is no data to back up the claim everyone was using tobacco prior to Juul. It is completely wrong and the opposite has been well documented going back years and years. The only thing I can think of is that they surveyed gas stations that only had tobacco flavored cartos on the shelf.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:56
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On Terra Firma posted:You say things that you and I both know are completely false yet you continue to say them. no, i am being completely sincere when i point out the identical language between your advocacy of vapes as a smoking alternative and literally every other big tobacco company trying to push vapes by harm mitigation as a marketing tool. you have to interpret my posts as dishonest in order to deal with the internal dissent that comes from being simultaneously anti-big tobacco and in agreement with big tobacco. i've been saying these things since my very first posts in this thread. i get that these words cause you discomfort but that does not make me a liar, that just means the things i have to write are not things you like to read e: i made this post three weeks ago, i could have made it tonight, it seems clear to me that the fundamental flaw of this thread - as an apologetic thread for nicotine abuse and not a thread about harm reduction - is going to cause it to continue to go nowhere luxury handset posted:there are actual, medically tested and proven nicotine cessation therapies out there with a decently high rate of effectiveness. you would prefer to talk about your chosen method of nicotine ingestion and use corporate messaging to draw false distinctions between the noble, innovative, mom and pop nicotine sellers who are totally not at all in the same business as the hated Big Tobacco Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 06:57
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luxury handset posted:no, i am being completely sincere when i point out the identical language between your advocacy of vapes as a smoking alternative and literally every other big tobacco company. you have to interpret my posts as dishonest in order to deal with the internal dissent that comes from being simultaneously anti-big tobacco and in agreement with big tobacco. i've been saying these things since my very first posts in this thread. i get that these words cause you discomfort but that does not make me a liar, that just means the things i have to write are not things you like to read You have also repeatedly ignored the fact that what I'm saying is identical to what numerous health organizations all over the world are saying. That is the only source of what I know and believe. There's no internal dissent. You are pulling my motivations out of thin air despite the fact that I have thoroughly explained out what I think, believe, and how I got here. I've directly asked you if these same organizations are parroting big tobacco talking points and you have ignored it. I've asked you if you believe they are influenced by big tobacco and you've ignored it. I've asked you to give me any examples of where the evidence reviews are somehow mislead or tainted and you've ignored it. So again you are lying when you say I am parroting tobacco talking points. That's only one topic where you've lied or been dishonest. I can give plenty of other examples if you want. luxury handset posted:e: i made this post three weeks ago, i could have made it tonight, it seems clear to me that the fundamental flaw of this thread - as an apologetic thread for nicotine abuse and not a thread about harm reduction - is going to cause it to continue to go nowhere It's just as wrong 3 weeks ago as it is now. Right there in the first line you accuse me of using corporate messaging which I am not. You then say the reason I'm doing this is because I am an addict looking for validation which I am not. You're implying that I'm either lying in the thread about what my motivations are or I'm lying to myself. Since neither of these things are true you are essentially making things up. Not sure why this is hard to wrap your head around! On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 07:05
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On Terra Firma posted:You have also repeatedly ignored the fact that what I'm saying is identical to what numerous health organizations all over the world are saying. when the FDA said something different you questioned their motivations and said they were unscientific On Terra Firma posted:So the numbers the CDC and FDA harp on about are pretty misleading although some users in this thread take issue with that interpretation. On Terra Firma posted:Again, people wonder why there is a distrust of the FDA and many public health officials to properly regulated reduced harm products. This is another reason why that is. They are deliberately misleading the public of relative risk much like they are with ENDS. On Terra Firma posted:A lot of people believe most of the harm from smoking actually comes from nicotine, and public health in America doesn't seem motivated to make a distinction between the two. I think it's more of a moral reason than scientific which is pretty dishonest. What's more confusing is that the FDA doesn't classify nicotine as a carcinogen and allows the sale of cessation products over the counter. when your interest in what health organizations has to stay stops at the boundary of "does this agree with what i want to believe" then we have a word for that but all of this is a distraction from the fact that your rhetoric about smoking cessation is identical to big tobacco marketing pushing vapes as smoking cessation, to which your only defense is to wave your hand and say "but scientists!" which, actually, does not address the fact that your rhetoric is identical to what big tobacco has to say, and after a month of this thread you've been unable to dig yourself out of this pattern of dismissal
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Oct 24, 2019 07:09
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luxury handset posted:when the FDA said something different you questioned their motivations and said they were unscientific Explain to me how any of those statements are wrong.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:11
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On Terra Firma posted:Explain to me how any of those statements are wrong. i have been, but you seem to soundly reject the "addict logic" hypothesis in this, the "nicotine addiction: is it really that bad?" thread
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Oct 24, 2019 07:13
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luxury handset posted:i have been, but you seem to soundly reject the "addict logic" hypothesis in this, the "nicotine addiction: is it really that bad" thread You have not addressed any of the posts you quoted. Not once.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:13
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On Terra Firma posted:You have not addressed any of the posts you quoted. Not once. i have addressed those posts directly. in fact, me quoting one of those posts and asking you directly to explain yourself is what caused both of us to post in this thread many times today. but we're at an impasse where neither of us is willing to acknowledge the other's reality. the main difference is that in my reality, i think nicotine usage among children is bad
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Oct 24, 2019 07:20
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^^^ My vaping does not equal children smoking anymore than your drinking habit equal child alcoholics. See I made a statement on false pretenses that you are drunk. ^^^ Straw-man argument. The nuance of the subject is too complicated to boil down to A = B and lacks credible evidence. It's easier to do that and probably makes you feel better but it's misguided and simple. I honestly don't know who funds my supplier. I like to think that he was telling the truth when he started the business and makes all of his juice in-house. He could be lying. It could be China. It could be big tobacco, although considering how risking investing in one small business is, much less thousands, I highly doubt it. It would be the conspiracy of the century. I like to think that his hard work paid off and he's keeping in business by not lying to his customers but I don't have all the facts to make such a bold statement for or against supporting big tobacco. I need more evidence. As it is, I feel safe in my belief that he's just good at the business he made. He's a nice guy. I've gotten several personally written "thank you"s from him. However, the chances of big tobacco running ALL the vape shops is incredibly low and, in my opinion, a stupid waste of money. So assuming just because someone who vapes they are support big tobacco is dubious at best. I would call this assumption mostly false due to lack of facts and/or evidence. Something that is fact, if I go back to smoking Marlboros, I will absolutely be supporting big tobacco. Now can we move on from this morbidly abused dead horse? inkblottime fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 07:27
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luxury handset posted:i have addressed those posts directly. in fact, me quoting one of those posts and asking you directly to explain yourself is what caused both of us to post in this thread many times today. but we're at an impasse where neither of us is willing to acknowledge the other's reality. the main difference is that in my reality, i think nicotine usage among children is bad No you haven't. In the post you're referring where you engaged after the thread died down you simply repeated the same "well you're an addict" assertion. Go back and read. quote:i don't want to sound too confrontational or kick this thread up into a slapfight again, but all of your arguments use addict logic. your primary motivation in this thread seems to be trying to assert that nicotine is unfairly maligned which is... not a popular argument It's the same argument with no basis in the truth and no substance for anyone to engage with. Again, you are lying. I mean poo poo, even in the post I'm quoting you seem to be claiming I think nicotine use in teens is good when in first loving post of the thread I point out that it is an issue that needs to be addressed immediately. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 07:30
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PT6A posted:Also tobacco-flavoured vape juice tastes nothing like actually smoking tobacco, it's like inhaling the flavour of tobacco that's been soaking in a puddle for a while, and that's exactly as appealing as it sounds. The ironic thing is that keeping tobacco out of flavor bans doesn't make any sense, because the "tobacco flavor" is produced with a combination of flavors that mimic it. So it's no different than the rest of the fruit flavors or whatever.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:37
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Bullfrog posted:The ironic thing is that keeping tobacco out of flavor bans doesn't make any sense, because the "tobacco flavor" is produced with a combination of flavors that mimic it. So it's no different than the rest of the fruit flavors or whatever. Yeah I thought it was weird too. I think it's so they can claim "for the children". If they banned tobacco flavor it would be too obvious since children don't smoke gross tobacco flavor. I hate the fact they put the "lung disease" lie in with "for the children". It's so obvious yet people are willing to set the disconnect aside because "lung disease" scares people and "for the children" sells the deal. Ultimately ~4000 small businesses in Washington state are in trouble.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:44
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PT6A posted:Also tobacco-flavoured vape juice tastes nothing like actually smoking tobacco, it's like inhaling the flavour of tobacco that's been soaking in a puddle for a while, and that's exactly as appealing as it sounds. When the flavor ban started being threatened, I ordered $100 worth of Njoy Watermelon Twist and Mint pods. And pick up 1 or 2 packages whenever I go into Walgreens or CircleK. If the goal was to temporarily raise the profits of big tobacco, it has succeeded. And, yes, I am using a big tobacco product. It's the only one I have found that doesn't give me heartburn or make me hack up a lung.
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Oct 24, 2019 12:29
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Not to interrupt the slapfest between you two and inkblot occasionally jumping in, but it's... kind of hosed up the way the vapes that are killing kids are being dismissed because it's not the legal stuff. That stuff is directly correlated to vaping becoming popular, and it's reputation for being safer than smoking. It's like saying liquor laws should ignore underage drinking because it's illegal anyways.inkblottime posted:^^^ My vaping does not equal children smoking anymore than your drinking habit equal child alcoholics. See I made a statement on false pretenses that you are drunk. ^^^ I can't make a judgement on it without knowing you, but yeah unless you only do it at home and don't have any kids to say, "yeah my dad vapes" then you are part of vaping getting normalized and that little stuff adds up into kids thinking it's cool and good. And yeah, kids seeing adults drinking and wanting in on it is exactly why underage drinking is so prevalent.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:53
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luxury handset posted:suboxone is a recognized treatment used for opiate addiciton though Can you answer my question? If your grandma had to smoke something, and you could get her to choose between regular cigarettes or a vape, are you telling me you would just say "ehh who knows if its really any safer?"
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Oct 24, 2019 15:20
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inkblottime posted:It sucks but you have to be an addict to know how it feels. Like coffee. Why the gently caress do we drink it? It tastes like poo poo yet it feels so good. So the taste kind of becomes the drug. Yet if you could get it without the taste it would better. Yo, I don't have a dog in this tobacco fight but I read this and had to point out that good coffee exists, there are a lot of people who drink coffee at least partly for the taste, and while you might just have a natural inclination against the taste I feel like you're probably missing the good stuff so far. If you don't like the burnt/bitter flavors, try to find a single origin light roast and give it a try. No shame in putting in a bit of cream or milk. If someone could come up with a light roast decaf that still tastes like the unaltered thing, I'd have a hard time not putting a quart away every day. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 15:43
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^^^ Thanks for the advice. It derails the discussion but hey, maybe it'll help in the coffee thread. ^^^FoolyCharged posted:Not to interrupt the slapfest between you two and inkblot occasionally jumping in, but it's... kind of hosed up the way the vapes that are killing kids are being dismissed because it's not the legal stuff. That stuff is directly correlated to vaping becoming popular, and it's reputation for being safer than smoking. It's like saying liquor laws should ignore underage drinking because it's illegal anyways. There's a lot to unpack here. I don't think anyone is dismissing the fact that kids are dying but more information is needed and the CDC is being smarmy and vague with that information. Plus the facts don't add up. Lung disease cause by inhaling oil would be very difficult to hide in nicotine vaping products since the ingredients are hydrophilic and oil is hydrophobic. In other words it would separate in solution and be pretty obvious someone hosed up. At this point I truly believe the CDC is giving half-truths about the situation in order to make it look like all vaping products are the issue. It makes sense, it's a health organisation and the world would be a better place without vices. But there's a crisis and instead of addressing it head on, there's a concerted effort to kill two birds with one stone. Hit vaping hard. Personally I think it sucks we are being lied to. I'm a stickler for info. I want the facts. The evidence. You say 15% of the cases reported nicotine, I want to know, were they kids being interviewed in front of their parents in a state where THC is illegal? Because that would be a case where I would question that information. Were the kids tested to confirm no THC? I think this is important for the CDC to get right because it calls to the validity of information. So if you are here to ban all vapes because it's a vice that's a bad influence on kids, I can't help you. There's a lot of poo poo out there that can gently caress kids up. I wish we could save them all. If you want to talk about smart regulation and getting awareness (dangers of) to kids and restricting how vaping is advertised or something we can actually talk about without insulting each other, I'm game. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 15:44
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FoolyCharged posted:Not to interrupt the slapfest between you two and inkblot occasionally jumping in, but it's... kind of hosed up the way the vapes that are killing kids are being dismissed because it's not the legal stuff. That stuff is directly correlated to vaping becoming popular, and it's reputation for being safer than smoking. It's like saying liquor laws should ignore underage drinking because it's illegal anyways. The THC stuff that's responsible for all the lung illness outbreaks is nothing like the nicotine based liquids. You can't even use them in the same pods/tanks/devices because one is oil based and the other is not. It's like saying bleach and water are the same thing because you can drink both. inkblottime posted:Personally I think it sucks we are being lied to. I'm a stickler for info. I want the facts. The evidence. You say 15% of the cases reported nicotine, I want to know, were they kids being interviewed in front of their parents in a state where THC is illegal? Because that would be a case where I would question that information. Were the kids tested to confirm no THC? I think this is important for the CDC to get right because it calls to the validity of information. That number is actually down to 8-9% and a large number of people who initially claimed they only used nicotine retracted and said it was actually THC. It's been falling every single day for the last week or two. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 15:51
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inkblottime posted:At this point I truly believe the CDC is giving half-truths about the situation in order to make it look like all vaping products are the issue. It makes sense, it's a health organisation and the world would be a better place without vices. But there's a crisis and instead of addressing it head on, there's a concerted effort to kill two birds with one stone. Hit vaping hard. there's no conspiracy between big tobacco and big government to kill vaping. big tobacco is the vaping industry, despite how much pro-vapers itt would like to pretend otherwise with marketing based on manufactured authenticity
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Oct 24, 2019 15:57
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luxury handset posted:there's no conspiracy between big tobacco and big government to kill vaping Oh hello again this has already been explained to you. luxury handset posted:big tobacco is the vaping industry, despite how much pro-vapers itt would like to pretend otherwise with marketing based on manufactured authenticity This is a lie. Try again.
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Oct 24, 2019 15:58
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