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Loomer posted:This is only the case if the curse is fuelled by abstract suffering rather than the direct symbolic repetition of the first murder. But... stealing someone else's life force to sustain your own power over them is in no way a symbolic repetition of the first murder.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:19
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So, our ST sprung a true fae on us, murdering one character and releasing the rogue fetch we finally had our hands on. I'm kinda disappointed, but that's more because of other bad approaches by one of the STs recently. Our characters have been out of Arcadia for, at best, a couple of weeks. Were we realistically expected to survive that encounter? Loomer posted:Nah, I'm too hairy. On a related note to the above, I just discovered the novel Olga Romanoff, which is both now in the public domain and, more importantly, has sixteen illustrations of skyships from 1897 that would be perfect for a single shot of Czar Vargo's Intervention that I can write up and include in the timeline download as a value add. Can you put up the rest of these illustrations?
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Oct 24, 2019 08:00
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Ferrinus posted:But... stealing someone else's life force to sustain your own power over them is in no way a symbolic repetition of the first murder. Stealing someone else's blood for the purpose, however, is. Caine's crime is twofold - there is the shedding of blood first, and the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing second. The nightly repetition of feeding symbolically reproduces both misdeeds in a way that capitalism, apt bloodsucking vampire metaphors aside, doesn't. Every act of feeding requires the physical violation of a body and the outpouring of blood (the murder, and in the case of the less satisfying vitae of animals, the sacrifice that God spurns), born out of a refusal to accept one's wrongdoing and face the consequences (the shamelessness).
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Oct 24, 2019 08:05
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Tias posted:So, our ST sprung a true fae on us, murdering one character and releasing the rogue fetch we finally had our hands on. I'm kinda disappointed, but that's more because of other bad approaches by one of the STs recently. I haven't trimmed them out yet so you'll have to grab the book itself. https://archive.org/details/olgaromanoff00grif/page/n11
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Oct 24, 2019 08:06
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No worries, thanks for info!Loomer posted:Stealing someone else's blood for the purpose, however, is. Caine's crime is twofold - there is the shedding of blood first, and the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing second. The nightly repetition of feeding symbolically reproduces both misdeeds in a way that capitalism, apt bloodsucking vampire metaphors aside, doesn't. Every act of feeding requires the physical violation of a body and the outpouring of blood (the murder, and in the case of the less satisfying vitae of animals, the sacrifice that God spurns), born out of a refusal to accept one's wrongdoing and face the consequences (the shamelessness). In oWod, this lacking contrition is in fact the basis of the entire cainite heresy/path of Caine. Not only do the Cainites suggest that God was cool with trying to get Abraham to sacrifice his son, but also delighted in Cains sacrifice of the blood of his brother. This turns the premise of V:tM on its head, making vampirism a blessing and a reward from God.
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Oct 24, 2019 08:13
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Tias posted:So, our ST sprung a true fae on us, murdering one character and releasing the rogue fetch we finally had our hands on. I'm kinda disappointed, but that's more because of other bad approaches by one of the STs recently. A direct attack by one of the Others, when you're fresh out of chargen and just after you're done exhausting resources to capture a fetch? The answer, depending on which rules for True Fae are in use, vary from first edition corebook "I would not have done this" to second edition corebook "I really would not have done this."
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Oct 24, 2019 08:24
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1st ed.. But still dumb. E: We'd spent 9 XP - and only had one brawl-specced character.
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Oct 24, 2019 08:31
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Zereth posted:that's the Scarecrow Ministry from Changeling. This is one of the many, many problems with Beast: most of the actual seeds of good ideas it have are already covered. I think the idea of having a horrible monster that gives you all your powers you need to feed with alien morals is kind of neat, so is the horrible idea that everyone you loved will be supernaturally compelled to kill you. There's some things I don't think other WoD stuff does specifically. Just waking up one day and find out you've got a dimensional shambler oozing out of your stomach. Of course, Beast doesn't even do too much with that idea since people can't even see your spooky monster form.
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Oct 24, 2019 10:48
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Loomer posted:Stealing someone else's blood for the purpose, however, is. Caine's crime is twofold - there is the shedding of blood first, and the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing second. The nightly repetition of feeding symbolically reproduces both misdeeds in a way that capitalism, apt bloodsucking vampire metaphors aside, doesn't. Every act of feeding requires the physical violation of a body and the outpouring of blood (the murder, and in the case of the less satisfying vitae of animals, the sacrifice that God spurns), born out of a refusal to accept one's wrongdoing and face the consequences (the shamelessness). On the other hand, the entire vampirism-as-curse-of-Cain aspect has always been screwy because it is...not how the Mark of Cain works in either tradition or text. Like, the entire point of the Mark of Cain is to protect Cain as well as mark him out. His punishment is not the mark, but rather that God has withdrawn from him all love and blessing, and the Mark is a protection to ensure no one takes advantage of this to pursue further punishment, because God's word is law and just, and going extrajudicial punishment on top of that would be declaring you know better than God, among other things. So, like, we're already way off map.
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Oct 24, 2019 12:58
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Tias posted:1st ed.. But still dumb. The True Fae are kind of end bosses to begin with. Even if you did have a bunch of fighters, that's the kind of fight you go into with tons of prepwork and allies.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:03
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Loomer posted:Stealing someone else's blood for the purpose, however, is. Caine's crime is twofold - there is the shedding of blood first, and the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing second. The nightly repetition of feeding symbolically reproduces both misdeeds in a way that capitalism, apt bloodsucking vampire metaphors aside, doesn't. Every act of feeding requires the physical violation of a body and the outpouring of blood (the murder, and in the case of the less satisfying vitae of animals, the sacrifice that God spurns), born out of a refusal to accept one's wrongdoing and face the consequences (the shamelessness). Cain's sacrifice was plants. God actually accepted the sacrifice of animal blood. That was Abel's. And the reason Cain's sacrifice wasn't acceptable was not that it was plants, but that it was lovely. Abel chose the best of his herds, while Cain grabbed basically the least good part of his harvest.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:05
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Tias posted:So, our ST sprung a true fae on us, murdering one character and releasing the rogue fetch we finally had our hands on. I'm kinda disappointed, but that's more because of other bad approaches by one of the STs recently. No, lol.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:05
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Mors Rattus posted:On the other hand, the entire vampirism-as-curse-of-Cain aspect has always been screwy because it is...not how the Mark of Cain works in either tradition or text. Like, the entire point of the Mark of Cain is to protect Cain as well as mark him out. His punishment is not the mark, but rather that God has withdrawn from him all love and blessing, and the Mark is a protection to ensure no one takes advantage of this to pursue further punishment, because God's word is law and just, and going extrajudicial punishment on top of that would be declaring you know better than God, among other things. And the original Mark of Cain story is also part of the Old Testament's concern with the plight of those who have no social defense and no group to fall back on. Hence the exhortations to defend the widow, the orphan, and the resident alien (with attendant warning that since they can't ask humans for help, the only person they can ask for justice is God, and you don't want God to think you acted unjustly). Cain is given such protection because both he and God are aware that 'wander the earth alone with no home and no family' would normally be a death sentence. The Old Testament is pretty consistent on this.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:11
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As a side note, this isn't really a mark against oWoD's take on Cain so much as a result of it being written from an aggressively Kids Of American Protestants viewpoint; it relies entirely on idiosyncratic and highly personal interpretations of the direct text without integrating literally any of thousands of years of scholarship, tradition or thought on the matter.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:17
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Mors Rattus posted:Cain's sacrifice was plants. God actually accepted the sacrifice of animal blood. That was Abel's. And the reason Cain's sacrifice wasn't acceptable was not that it was plants, but that it was lovely. Abel chose the best of his herds, while Cain grabbed basically the least good part of his harvest. poo poo, right you are. I'm going to go slink off into the shadows for a while.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:26
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Tias posted:So, our ST sprung a true fae on us, murdering one character and releasing the rogue fetch we finally had our hands on. I'm kinda disappointed, but that's more because of other bad approaches by one of the STs recently. I don't want to laugh, because that isn't funny, but, uh, no. That's not okay, even if it were some sort of ST fiat 'it gets tossed back into Arcadia due to Y' cutscene thing and not an actual direct conflict that also fucks up your efforts thus far (casually snatching up the Fetch you guys worked hard to snatch first). They simply aren't supposed to be that commonplace on this side of the Hedge, Changeling society wouldn't, uh, exist, if they were.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:26
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I don't want to laugh, because that isn't funny, but, uh, no. That's not okay, even if it were some sort of ST fiat 'it gets tossed back into Arcadia due to Y' cutscene thing and not an actual direct conflict that also fucks up your efforts thus far (casually snatching up the Fetch you guys worked hard to snatch first). The fetch we chased ran into the Hedge, and only one chase scene into the Hedge we met it.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:43
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In the Hedge itself, you definitely couldn't beat a True Fae. They kind of only become vulnerable when forced to deal with reality or their oaths are forced into contradiction.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:48
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Mors Rattus posted:As a side note, this isn't really a mark against oWoD's take on Cain so much as a result of it being written from an aggressively Kids Of American Protestants viewpoint; it relies entirely on idiosyncratic and highly personal interpretations of the direct text without integrating literally any of thousands of years of scholarship, tradition or thought on the matter. I really want to dig deep into the theology of just how weird God’s punishment got. I’m having trouble NOT imagining God, the perfect being they are, gazing down from Heaven upon some Tzmisce’s Vicissitude nightmare and going “Huh...that’s not quite what I intended.”
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Oct 24, 2019 14:17
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I bet God was really stoked that Cappadocius was planning to kill and eat him. Just a whole 'finally, someone else is going to take over this shitshow' vibe.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:20
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Tias posted:The fetch we chased ran into the Hedge, and only one chase scene into the Hedge we met it. Is your ST under the impression that the Gentry are just commonly roaming the Hedge all the time? That's kind of like going down a secondary Frankish trade road and running straight into Charles Martel, except in this analogy Charles has supreme magical power, so let's say Charles Martel marching at the head of his royal army. They've got people (or, well, semi-people) to do things like this for them, though even a Huntsman would definitely be overkill in this scenario.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:30
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Wasn't there a scenario in Gehenna that delved a little more into the nitty gritty of the Mark of Cain? I think it was the one about Lilith getting revenge on him, where she basically had to orchestrate someone else to actually drop him because otherwise the mark would destroy her too. There might have been other stuff they had to work around as well. Not that that's any more biblically accurate or anything, I just remember liking that they played around a bit more with it being a bit more than just Caine being the Ur-Vampire.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:34
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Loomer posted:Stealing someone else's blood for the purpose, however, is. Caine's crime is twofold - there is the shedding of blood first, and the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing second. The nightly repetition of feeding symbolically reproduces both misdeeds in a way that capitalism, apt bloodsucking vampire metaphors aside, doesn't. Every act of feeding requires the physical violation of a body and the outpouring of blood (the murder, and in the case of the less satisfying vitae of animals, the sacrifice that God spurns), born out of a refusal to accept one's wrongdoing and face the consequences (the shamelessness). You've already been corrected on the animal thing, but the difference between shedding and consuming blood can't be discarded here. A vampire wouldn't feel regenerated if they just brained someone with a jawbone and strolled off whistling. They have to take something from you, and, moreover, they have to keep taking that thing from you and your peers, and keep at least some of you alive so they can do it over and over. The blood is the life; it's not just a way of keeping score.
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Oct 24, 2019 17:32
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Cuntellectual posted:I think the idea of having a horrible monster that gives you all your powers you need to feed with alien morals is kind of neat, so is the horrible idea that everyone you loved will be supernaturally compelled to kill you. There's some things I don't think other WoD stuff does specifically. Just waking up one day and find out you've got a dimensional shambler oozing out of your stomach. And Better Angels exists, so again Beast is preemptively irrelevant.
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Oct 24, 2019 17:36
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I feel V5 does a better job of explicitly linking death to the vampiric condition. You can't simply take blood points until your tracker is maxed out - Someone has to die to quiet the Beast completely.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:17
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I ride bikes all day posted:I feel V5 does a better job of explicitly linking death to the vampiric condition. You can't simply take blood points until your tracker is maxed out - Someone has to die to quiet the Beast completely. ew, how so? This is the first thing about the hunger mechanic that I haven't liked.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:01
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By default you can't go below 1 hunger without killing a human when feeding. So no matter how much bagged blood you chug, the Beast isn't fully sated until you take a life.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:10
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Oh that's not so bad. I don't care for it, but it's not gonna stop me from playing and is pretty thematic.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:11
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Omnicrom posted:And Better Angels exists, so again Beast is preemptively irrelevant. What's that?
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Oct 24, 2019 21:44
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Cuntellectual posted:What's that? Greg Stolze game about playing supervillains. You have a demon inside you. It wants to drat you to hell. You keep it satisfied by doing acts of grandiose but stupid evil that don't actually harm the world. It also has his latest take on Shadowguiding from Wraith, which is super interesting but I'm still not sure if it actually works in play.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:51
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Ferrinus posted:The bourgeoise already exist. Vampires would simply not be a big deal unless they challenged the ruling order, which they don’t, because they mostly reproduce and represent it. 1e has a book that gives a write up for a viable blood stand in. It's in the shards/mirrors/alternate universe book whose name I forget. The Woundgate setting (Which has a large number of humans aware of the supernatural. Basically one step removed from True Blood.) in particular heavily implies it's an actual industry for the supernaturally aware portion of the human populace. Albeit, there's also some implications that it's a really hosed up sort of business because it's the World of Darkness and normal healthy things tend to be prohibited for the sake of drama. Ironically, it comes from a plant. Which technically means that vampires that prefer to use it go vegan. It's also incredibly toxic to living humans if I remember the stats for it. So any human that drinks the stuff thinking they're going to get super powers or steal life or whatever is probably going to be taking a trip to the hospital. Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 23:18
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Mors Rattus posted:It also has his latest take on Shadowguiding from Wraith, which is super interesting but I'm still not sure if it actually works in play.  Ah, the best and most difficult mechanic to actually use.
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Oct 24, 2019 23:45
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Ferrinus posted:You've already been corrected on the animal thing, but the difference between shedding and consuming blood can't be discarded here. A vampire wouldn't feel regenerated if they just brained someone with a jawbone and strolled off whistling. They have to take something from you, and, moreover, they have to keep taking that thing from you and your peers, and keep at least some of you alive so they can do it over and over. The blood is the life; it's not just a way of keeping score. No one is proposing ignoring the difference. The symbolic re-enactment of the murder is, however, a necessary precondition for the consumption of the blood to take place - without the act of shedding the blood, the blood is not available to consume.
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Oct 25, 2019 02:34
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Hey, does anyone have a link to that collection of goon bloodlines for VtR? I remember it having some very interesting sea vampires.
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Oct 25, 2019 02:44
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I know we're probably not as deep knowledge-wise on Changeling: The Dreaming fluff but did they ever hit at broadly a reason the Arcadian sidhe were kicked back to Earth?
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Oct 25, 2019 03:05
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Dawgstar posted:I know we're probably not as deep knowledge-wise on Changeling: The Dreaming fluff but did they ever hit at broadly a reason the Arcadian sidhe were kicked back to Earth? Civil war insurrection or somesuch.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:11
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Dawgstar posted:I know we're probably not as deep knowledge-wise on Changeling: The Dreaming fluff but did they ever hit at broadly a reason the Arcadian sidhe were kicked back to Earth? The moon landing, right?
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Oct 25, 2019 03:14
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Lord_Hambrose posted:The moon landing, right? Nah, that just provided the window to get rid of 'em.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:21
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:Hey, does anyone have a link to that collection of goon bloodlines for VtR? I remember it having some very interesting sea vampires. Yeah, post links to your homebrew and I'll add it to the OP
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Oct 25, 2019 04:02
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Lord_Hambrose posted:The moon landing, right? The moon landing OPENED the gates to Arcadia, but the Sidhe that came through were on the losing end of a Civil War of somesuch.
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Oct 25, 2019 04:27
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