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joepinetree posted:Morales presided over a much larger reduction in gini coefficient and a much greater increase in the share of income held by the bottom 20% of the population. yeah, he managed to reduce Bolivia's gini so that now it is about the same as Peru's. Under Morales, Bolivia has become a bit more like Peru and Colombia and Ecuador. It's still poorer than them and over the last decade has grown too slowly to ever catch up with them in terms of income, so its still a mixed picture. I just want to know what Morales has done that distinguishes him from leaders in Peru or Colombia. . . because judged by results, he looks very bland and unremarkable. Which I might add, is NOT a reason to try and overthrow him. Blandness is hardly the worst thing to have in a politician. There's plenty who couldn't resist messing everything up
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Oct 24, 2019 17:49
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Oh yeah this is mostly curiosity. Dad told me that apparently now that the economic boom was receding he tried to open new farmlands by burning a bit of land and ended up with a bigass fire in the Bolivian Amazon. Is that true?
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Oct 24, 2019 18:14
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punk rebel ecks posted:Are there any Bolivian goons here? We should get the opposition ballot burners some accounts so the regime change crew can claim authentic voices backing them up But in seriousness think Morales' base is far less likely to be english speaking and have an account on an ol dead forum than a middle class kid from the city
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Oct 24, 2019 18:17
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https://twitter.com/AlSociologia/status/1187404019423207430?s=20
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Oct 24, 2019 19:04
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Cool image, but there is no impeachment process going on in Peru right now, the Congress is the only one that can do it and is dissolved until February 2020 when temporary Congress persons will serve until the 28th of July 2021; the current Comisión Permanente (congress persons from the dissolved congress representing all bancadas or groups of 5 or more congress persons) is just there to rubber stamp the executive's decrees. The new congress persons will scrutinize every decree and could impeach, but unless someone fucks up it's unlikely with the latest polls showing the president has 75%+ approval (mostly because he dissolved congress).
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Oct 24, 2019 19:17
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mila kunis posted:We should get the opposition ballot burners some accounts so the regime change crew can claim authentic voices backing them up There's nothing wrong with having people on the ground tell you of their experiences and things happening. A good reason why this thread is quality is because you have actual Latin Americans disclosing things on their country rather than a bunch of gringos who skim Counterpunch articles.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:17
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punk rebel ecks posted:There's nothing wrong with having people on the ground tell you of their experiences and things happening. A good reason why this thread is quality is because you have actual Latin Americans disclosing things on their country rather than a bunch of gringos who skim Counterpunch articles. it also helps that the NYT hasn't had the failscion of a former Minister For Clubbing Suspected Trade Unionists To Death tell Americans it would be #woke #bae #thepeopleweburnedalivehaditcoming to send in troops to put her daddy back in power yet. but hey, the night is young
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Oct 24, 2019 19:28
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Squalid posted:yeah, he managed to reduce Bolivia's gini so that now it is about the same as Peru's. Under Morales, Bolivia has become a bit more like Peru and Colombia and Ecuador. It's still poorer than them and over the last decade has grown too slowly to ever catch up with them in terms of income, so its still a mixed picture. I mean, for starters there's the fact that the entire context was different. Bolivia had had either near 0 or negative economic growth prior to 2005. Then there's the fact that "economic growth" is only part of the picture. Share of income held by the lowest 20% has increased faster than any other country in Latin America since 2005. That is not "bland."
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Oct 24, 2019 19:28
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punk rebel ecks posted:There's nothing wrong with having people on the ground tell you of their experiences and things happening. A good reason why this thread is quality is because you have actual Latin Americans disclosing things on their country rather than a bunch of gringos who skim Counterpunch articles. What he's referring to is that in Latin America reading and writing in english is reserved for the privileged, and most likely we'd get a white urbanite perspective on Morales rather than from someone who composes his base, mostly poor and indigenous people. Us latin american posters here able to hold a political discussion in fluent english probably had middle class upbringings and more likely than not are cave-dwelling computer touchers, we're informed yes but don't expect this to be "the people's perspective" or anything.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:12
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joepinetree posted:I mean, for starters there's the fact that the entire context was different. Bolivia had had either near 0 or negative economic growth prior to 2005. Then there's the fact that "economic growth" is only part of the picture. Share of income held by the lowest 20% has increased faster than any other country in Latin America since 2005. That is not "bland." I mean it kind of is, since if you start at a worse level its generally easier to improve. I found some economic time series I can compare and Bolivia's poverty rate starts falling dramatically after the year 2000 and was going down very fast even before Morales became President https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.LMIC?locations=PE-BO-CO This compares the % earning less than $3.20 per day in Peru, Bolivia, and Colombia. You can change the level of poverty you look at or look at the gini or something. Bolivia has definitely done well relative to its national income level, and Colombia has done comparatively badly. You can see though that since 2013 Bolivia's improvement has slowed a lot. I think this is mostly a product of a weak commodity market that hurts the Bolivian economy. It's somewhat remarkable to me how similarly the Andean economies are all doing. Morales gets a lot of press but it mostly seems to be because he's just flashier than other moderately left leaders in the region. Looking at the data though Colombia looks like it performs remarkably badly on measures of poverty. Morales has definitely done better than Colombia's leaders.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:33
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bagual posted:What he's referring to is that in Latin America reading and writing in english is reserved for the privileged, and most likely we'd get a white urbanite perspective on Morales rather than from someone who composes his base, mostly poor and indigenous people. Still far better gringo dipshits that think they understand the worlds because they read once a Jacobin article, and think they are the saviour Latin America from the safety of their home.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:45
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Squalid posted:I mean it kind of is, since if you start at a worse level its generally easier to improve. Do you know anything about poverty alleviation or sustainable development, or are you just assuming that's a universal principle?
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Oct 24, 2019 21:35
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Squalid posted:I mean it kind of is, since if you start at a worse level its generally easier to improve. I found some economic time series I can compare and Bolivia's poverty rate starts falling dramatically after the year 2000 and was going down very fast even before Morales became President The fact that the income growth since 1980 until 2005 was either flat or negative seems to cut very strongly against your argument that it is easier to grow from a worse level. qnqnx posted:Still far better gringo dipshits that think they understand the worlds because they read once a Jacobin article, and think they are the saviour Latin America from the safety of their home. Why is it far better? I'd say your rich white expat living in Florida doesn't know any more about living conditions in Latin America than your "gringo dipshit who read a Jacobin article" I'd also say that "Rich people are aligning themselves with the United States government to gently caress over the poor and benefit the wealthy and multinational corporations" is a fair guess about anything happening in Latin America, and the only thing that changes historically is if the rich people are aligning with the US or Europe.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:04
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I'm not talking about expats but people on the ground. Much like Brazil goons in this thread.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:12
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joepinetree posted:Why is it far better? I'd say your rich white expat living in Florida doesn't know any more about living conditions in Latin America than your "gringo dipshit who read a Jacobin article" We are both posting here in Something Awful. The chance of either of us, or any other poster fitting with the "knowing english = actually cultured = aligns with the US government to gently caress over the poor" line of arguing is not really any statistically relevant, and those that would have, got banned or left already. So yeah, I will argue that a local goon is more reliable than some gringo with a messiah complex.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:26
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Winter Rose posted:Do you know anything about poverty alleviation or sustainable development, or are you just assuming that's a universal principle? I mean I'm not an expert and its not like an iron law of nature. . . it's just an observed tendency. It's easier for less developed nations to achieve higher growth and increase life expectancy/quality of life than richer nations because they can get big benefits out of small efforts. For example you can employ just a few nurses to travel around a country vaccinating babies and massively reduce deaths from disease at very little effort. However to keep improving public health takes exponentially increasing effort. After vaccination you want to start distributing antibiotics, but that requires nurses and doctors permanently available in every community to make diagnoses. Then tackling cancers and heart disease takes even more effort and expense. We can see this in places like China, Japan, and Vietnam where the economy enters a period of rapid growth that gradually tapers off. In Latin America developmental economists sometimes talk about a "middle income trap" in which countries are able to take the basic steps towards development like vaccination, but for whatever reason are not able to go further and experience economic stagnation. joepinetree posted:The fact that the income growth since 1980 until 2005 was either flat or negative seems to cut very strongly against your argument that it is easier to grow from a worse level. I mean this stuff is complicated. South America has had to deal with a lot of selfish morons and sociopathic leaders more interested in being insanely racist than actually doing good things. If the countryside is blowing up with rebels and narcos it can become a struggle just to maintain basic services like vaccination. I guess I felt the need to point out that Morales is not particularly exceptional a leader when Plutonis said "Play to win." In this case "winning" appears to mean 'maintain social spending at the present moderate levels, as long as national debt remains manageable.' Don't get me wrong, that's something worth fighting for, but is that even realistically being threatened by the opposition? In the long run I can't see it being wise to trade democracy and an independent judiciary for short term guarantees. It is a very dangerous bargain. Politics is not a game you ever really win or lose, you always just have to keep playing. I'm not following Bolivian politics very closely though so hopefully Morales won legitimately and there's no issue. If I were Bolivian I'd probably feel on edge, I'd of really not liked that Supreme Court ruling. Maybe it was all normal though, I don't really know how courts work/don't work in Bolivia either!
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Oct 24, 2019 22:30
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qnqnx posted:We are both posting here in Something Awful. The chance of either of us, or any other poster fitting with the "knowing english = actually cultured = aligns with the US government to gently caress over the poor" line of arguing is not really any statistically relevant, and those that would have, got banned or left already. Anybody who post in D&D and pays 10$ for that privilege being assigned any reliability is, frankly, sadder than a poster actually being part of the state department.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:37
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Squalid posted:I mean I'm not an expert and its not like an iron law of nature. . . it's just an observed tendency. It's easier for less developed nations to achieve higher growth and increase life expectancy/quality of life than richer nations because they can get big benefits out of small efforts. For example you can employ just a few nurses to travel around a country vaccinating babies and massively reduce deaths from disease at very little effort. However to keep improving public health takes exponentially increasing effort. After vaccination you want to start distributing antibiotics, but that requires nurses and doctors permanently available in every community to make diagnoses. Then tackling cancers and heart disease takes even more effort and expense. Japan is a middle income trap country wtf? They have stagnated for a while but they are firmly developed economy in the first world with huge multinationals corporations and banks exerting global power. I don't really think you got this theory straight, maybe the fact you use "for whatever reason" when the theory does provide a series of reasons is telling. And middle income trap is bullshit built on top of idiot world bank categories anyway, read up on dependency theory, i've posted about it before, also look up Raul Prebisch and Celso Furtado. bagual posted:If you guys want to read more on Latin American development, I suggest looking into the publications in the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) library and I'd really recommend this starter on Latin American dependency theory if you really want to understand the history. Squalid posted:I mean this stuff is complicated. South America has had to deal with a lot of selfish morons and sociopathic leaders more interested in being insanely racist than actually doing good things. If the countryside is blowing up with rebels and narcos it can become a struggle just to maintain basic services like vaccination. Just saying oh these idiot latin leaders were bad sociopaths thats why shits hosed really overlooks the overarching theme in these dictatorships that was full on United States support in their quest to squash communism, one that mostly succeed at the cost of social development that would form the basis of a society with advanced knowledge economies and such. Squalid posted:I guess I felt the need to point out that Morales is not particularly exceptional a leader when Plutonis said "Play to win." In this case "winning" appears to mean 'maintain social spending at the present moderate levels, as long as national debt remains manageable.' Don't get me wrong, that's something worth fighting for, but is that even realistically being threatened by the opposition? Yes, the right wing turn-over these last years in latin america has gutted social security networks, pensions, healthcare and education through neoliberal reforms against the welfare state. What's happening in Bolivia reminds me of a few years back in a bunch of countries when the chuds rose up. Squalid posted:In the long run I can't see it being wise to trade democracy and an independent judiciary for short term guarantees. It is a very dangerous bargain. Politics is not a game you ever really win or lose, you always just have to keep playing. You're under the illusion there was ever a guarantee in the first place. Bolivia has an even more hosed up history than most other latin american countries, especially in the racism department, where Evo has arguably put in the most work being the first leader to ever belong to the largest native ethnicity in the country, Aymara. When you lose in politics in South America, sometimes it means the death squads are coming for you and your friends, don't give me that wishywashy poo poo. Homeless Friend posted:Anybody who post in D&D and pays 10$ for that privilege being assigned any reliability is, frankly, sadder than a poster actually being part of the state department.  qnqnx posted:Still far better gringo dipshits that think they understand the worlds because they read once a Jacobin article, and think they are the saviour Latin America from the safety of their home. 
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Oct 25, 2019 00:41
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Can someone explain what the attack on the judiciary is here, because as far as I can see the overarching complaint is “Morales didn’t put nazis on the court” and this whole “judges shouldn’t be political” theory is liberal nonsense.
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Oct 25, 2019 01:04
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uninterrupted posted:Can someone explain what the attack on the judiciary is here, because as far as I can see the overarching complaint is “Morales didn’t put nazis on the court” and this whole “judges shouldn’t be political” theory is liberal nonsense. It was a misconception that Morales used the court that he presumably appointed to circumvent constitutional term limits in order to let himself run for president again after losing a referendum on it. In reality, the court just struck down term limits that were shoehorned in under threat of an armed right wing insurrection, on the basis that that should not influence law and it was not added by the constitutional assembly. Or so I understand it.
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Oct 25, 2019 01:07
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Homeless Friend posted:Anybody who post in D&D and pays 10$ for that privilege being assigned any reliability is, frankly, sadder than a poster actually being part of the state department. Go back to CSPAM with your dumbass attitude, thanks in advance.
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Oct 25, 2019 01:17
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Cup Runneth Over posted:It was a misconception that Morales used the court that he presumably appointed to circumvent constitutional term limits in order to let himself run for president again after losing a referendum on it. In reality, the court just struck down term limits that were shoehorned in under threat of an armed right wing insurrection, on the basis that that should not influence law and it was not added by the constitutional assembly. Or so I understand it. yeah I think I have some mild criticisms of Morales here (should be getting a successor ready or ideally have one, the election immediate results were kinda  ), but the protesters at best angrily hosed up election integrity themselves and there's not really a good remedy to that that isn't unfair to SOMEBODYhopefully things get resolved with a minimum of violence
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Oct 25, 2019 01:28
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bagual posted:Japan is a middle income trap country wtf? They have stagnated for a while but they are firmly developed economy in the first world with huge multinationals corporations and banks exerting global power. I don't really think you got this theory straight, maybe the fact you use "for whatever reason" when the theory does provide a series of reasons is telling. I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Japan is a middle income country, I was just using it as an example of how economic growth tends to slow as countries become more wealthy. Their stagnation is exaggerated anyway, Japan's growth is fine considering their population trend. I'm not really prepared or informed enough to defend the idea of a middle income trap or challenge dependency theory. Rather instead I was only using it to show that it's not just me observing that growth is easier when economies start less developed, this is something a lot of people have observed and commented on. You don't have to look very far back in my post history to find me saying nice things about Morales. But really you shouldn't feel the need to make excuses for him. I don't know what the deal is with this election yet but if I were Bolivian I think I'd expect to hear a drat good explanation of what was going on. Do you think, if he had lost, he'd be justified faking the results? For me the answer is obviously no, no matter how lovely his opponents. If people stop believing they can trust the elections or get fair judgements from courts, then they will seek to advance their agenda through the only way that works: violence. Taking that away is like sealing the safety valve on a steam engine. Everything might seem to run just fine but at some point you're going to get an explosion. Avoiding that risk is worth a few years in the opposition, and judging by the results released before things got weird it's not like Morales's party was facing a crushing defeat anyway. They would have tools to protect their progress. If you were a leftist Peruvian in 1968 it probably felt like a win when Juan Velasco Alvarado launched his coup and seized control of the country. He even did some good things as President like land reform. In reality though this "win" proved illusory. He was out in 7 years and replaced with a more right-leaning General. By the time democracy was restored Peru's economy was crumbling and the countryside was crawling with guerrillas. And yeah, the USA was almost certainly involved in overthrowing Velasco? That's just how things are. The USA exists, and any politician who thinks they can ignore that fact is an idiot whose nation will suffer for their error.
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Oct 25, 2019 02:01
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what you don't seem to understand is that the actions of the US undercut your own "people have to trust elections" argument if they're committing coups whenever someone they don't like gets into power (democratically or not) then the trust in elections is already destroyed
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Oct 25, 2019 03:01
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Doctor Jeep posted:what you don't seem to understand is that the actions of the US undercut your own "people have to trust elections" argument that doesn't undercut my argument at all. nobody has to trust elections. it's stupid to trust elections that are fake. and when you can't trust elections, if you want to accomplish something you will try to do so via other means. when you throw away the legitimacy of a government it inevitably creates violence. when you destroy the systems that keep leaders accountable, like elections or the independence of the judiciary, politicians will exploit their impunity for personal gain and corruption will inevitably flourish. These are the costs of playing to win.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:28
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qnqnx posted:Go back to CSPAM with your dumbass attitude, thanks in advance. I should correct myself, they would be very reliable and not valid. Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 03:31
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Squalid posted:that doesn't undercut my argument at all. nobody has to trust elections. it's stupid to trust elections that are fake. and when you can't trust elections, if you want to accomplish something you will try to do so via other means. when you throw away the legitimacy of a government it inevitably creates violence. when you destroy the systems that keep leaders accountable, like elections or the independence of the judiciary, politicians will exploit their impunity for personal gain and corruption will inevitably flourish. These are the costs of playing to win. but if there is a very powerful outside entity that is constantly messing with your systems of accountability and also your opponents don't give a poo poo about them why would you still give a poo poo about them? you're asking people to shoot themselves in the foot out of decorum. and the result will be that actual people will get very very hurt, through the policies of the right wing ghouls that will come in power.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:39
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bagual posted:When you lose in politics in South America, sometimes it means the death squads are coming for you and your friends, don't give me that wishywashy poo poo. Murderous right-wing dictators go live in Europe and get eulogised by world leaders as a really nice guy and all round gentleman.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:44
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Doctor Jeep posted:but if there is a very powerful outside entity that is constantly messing with your systems of accountability and also your opponents don't give a poo poo about them why would you still give a poo poo about them?. then obviously you wouldn't give a poo poo about them? How did you expected me to respond to this. All of this is rather abstract since Bolivian institutions are obviously robust enough against rightwing wrecking that Morales was able to win two previous Presidential elections, get a new constitution passed, win landslide victories in the legislative, and passing sweeping economic and social reforms. Obviously fascists aren't ever going to care about democracy but who cares what they think, it's worth fighting for.
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Oct 25, 2019 04:24
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democratic institutions aren't robust if their existence/proper operation requires a leftist party to be in power constantly, that's the opposite of robustness
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Oct 25, 2019 04:51
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Bureaucratic red tape might be a nuisance but what many people fail to acknowledge when cursing it is that it exists to prevent or at least stall the misuse of power and destruction of necessary institutions
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Oct 25, 2019 04:53
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Doctor Jeep posted:democratic institutions aren't robust if their existence/proper operation requires a leftist party to be in power constantly, that's the opposite of robustness what. do you think Bolivia has just been an unbroken string of Aymara socialists since democracy was restored in 1982? Or do you reason to believe Carlos Mesa, who resigned in the face of protests organized by Morales last time he was President, is just waiting to pull a Reichstag and declare himself President for Life? I'm not sure if you are making a theoretical argument about democracy in the abstract or making a point about Bolivia today. I can't follow your argument at all. abolishing democracy and instituting a nationalist dictatorship to own the fascists
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Oct 25, 2019 05:57
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Squalid posted:what. do you think Bolivia has just been an unbroken string of Aymara socialists since democracy was restored in 1982? Or do you reason to believe Carlos Mesa, who resigned in the face of protests organized by Morales last time he was President, is just waiting to pull a Reichstag and declare himself President for Life? I'm not sure if you are making a theoretical argument about democracy in the abstract or making a point about Bolivia today. I can't follow your argument at all. what I think is that I really don't give a poo poo if morales jiggered with the system a bit in order to get himself elected again because he'll do better than whatever his opponents would've done in power calling that a nationalist dictatorship is dumb
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Oct 25, 2019 07:58
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bagual posted:Just saying oh these idiot latin leaders were bad sociopaths thats why shits hosed really overlooks the overarching theme in these dictatorships that was full on United States support in their quest to squash communism, one that mostly succeed at the cost of social development that would form the basis of a society with advanced knowledge economies and such. It's worth remembering that dictators in Latin America has gone on way before the Cold War regimes aided and abetted by the US. The system of caudillos was put well in place by the Spaniards, and in certain areas was based on the already existant empires. When the Spanish were kicked out, democracy barely got a chance to get going before venture capitalists from Europe and the US came down and began helping out rulers pliable to their causes. There's hardly ever been a time in one single country where people were just left to their own devices. Someone from outside always wanted something.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:25
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Squalid posted:I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Japan is a middle income country, I was just using it as an example of how economic growth tends to slow as countries become more wealthy. Their stagnation is exaggerated anyway, Japan's growth is fine considering their population trend. Maybe don't use theories you're not prepared to back-up as examples? Growth slowing down does not equal middle income, and yes people have observed that growth slows down because that's a thing that happens, so what? You gotta have a theoretical perspective to elaborate on, lest you just stay describing the basics like such number go up, such number go down, that good, that bad, and so on, with no real perspective to what it means in a wider context. I've actually looked up the recent world bank classifications, Bolivia is a low middle income country on par with countries like Cambodia and Cameroon while Peru is upper middle income like most of the rest of Latin America. Your whole "Morales is bland" argument seems unfounded to me as you're just comparing aggregate statistics without historical context and not even getting a level field for comparison according to the theory you used as an illustrative example. Squalid posted:You don't have to look very far back in my post history to find me saying nice things about Morales. But really you shouldn't feel the need to make excuses for him. I don't know what the deal is with this election yet but if I were Bolivian I think I'd expect to hear a drat good explanation of what was going on. Do you think, if he had lost, he'd be justified faking the results? That's the thing, this whole divided election thing reminds me of my country, Brazil, in 2014, when the workers party got reelected for the 4th time on a small vote margin after some social unrest and the opposition immediately made "they stole the election, they want a communist dictatorship" into a talking point, then proceeded to undermine the government and call for street protests immediately after the election until they finally got the impeachment on a flimsy technicality that was of course immediately expunged from the law afterwards. One of Bolsonaro's big takes during the campaign was that our electronic voting system was a communist ploy to keep the left in power, one that he obviously dropped when he won. So even buying into this vote fraud narrative the opposition is trying to spin seems dumb to me, I've seen like it before and if things go as they went here by 2023 Evo will be out and bolivian gas and oil will be reprivatized. Squalid posted:If you were a leftist Peruvian in 1968 it probably felt like a win when Juan Velasco Alvarado launched his coup and seized control of the country. He even did some good things as President like land reform. In reality though this "win" proved illusory. He was out in 7 years and replaced with a more right-leaning General. By the time democracy was restored Peru's economy was crumbling and the countryside was crawling with guerrillas. And yeah, the USA was almost certainly involved in overthrowing Velasco? That's just how things are. Admittedly never even heard of the guy, more familiar with the history of countries this side of the Andes (and Chile). Skimmed over the wiki, surely gonna read up on it later, if you got any good books/videos/articles on peruvian history  Squalid posted:The USA exists, and any politician who thinks they can ignore that fact is an idiot whose nation will suffer for their error. Allende.... deserved 9/11!!! Squalid posted:that doesn't undercut my argument at all. nobody has to trust elections. it's stupid to trust elections that are fake. and when you can't trust elections, if you want to accomplish something you will try to do so via other means. when you throw away the legitimacy of a government it inevitably creates violence. when you destroy the systems that keep leaders accountable, like elections or the independence of the judiciary, politicians will exploit their impunity for personal gain and corruption will inevitably flourish. These are the costs of playing to win. South american right-wing wages constant lawfare because more often than not the courts are stacked full of arch-conservatives who've been there since the dictatorships. Corruption already flourishes, violence is already the solution for a lot of people and so on. Morales got some victories at the courts, and that's only scandalous by latin american standards because he's leftist. That said I'm a hypocrite in this point because for example yesterday Lula had a major judicial victory in the Supreme Court and made one step towards being freed, so trusting the law and the institutions, as hosed as they are, may just pay off. Of course, a top general immediately threatened to close the Supreme Court for helping Lula go free because we live in hellworld but that's them breaks. I figure that if the right-wing bends the law in their favor for their criminal enterprises, it's the left's role to be serious and sober and push forward a just society with just laws. Doctor Jeep posted:what I think is that I really don't give a poo poo if morales jiggered with the system a bit in order to get himself elected again because he'll do better than whatever his opponents would've done in power This is the insidiousness of the right's narrative, you're already saying you wouldn't mind some vote shenanigans when in fact it was a normal election with international observers invited and the opposition was the one burning ballot boxes on their baby shitfit. Don't justify what didn't happen. All in all we have to wait and see what the response to the calls for a rerun will be, I actually have serious doubts about Morales as if Venezuela is anything to learn from, when a power group led by a personalist reasonably competent charismatic leader entrenches itself in power, things go to poo poo real fast when the guy everyone relies on kicks the bucket and party bureaucrats take over, with the level of competence you'd expect. IMO Frente Amplia in Uruguay is an example how democratic socialism is supposed to be done, no eternal leader and they still got gay weed abortion marriages locked in, and have good chances at being re-elected this year. Of course Uruguay is tiny and relatively rich tho. I'm just frustrated that leftist leaders doing anything that may be presented as legally shady immediately get the dictator word thrown around and dictatorship and evil and whatever, and when the right-wing jails political opposition through ideologically motivated judges, takes down democratically elected leaders, deals drugs, funds death squads, encourages torture and firing at civilian communities, genocides native populations and murders enviromentalists, elected officials and social movement organizers, it's all completely reasonable and normal and part of the democratic game. 100YrsofAttitude posted:It's worth remembering that dictators in Latin America has gone on way before the Cold War regimes aided and abetted by the US. The system of caudillos was put well in place by the Spaniards, and in certain areas was based on the already existant empires. When the Spanish were kicked out, democracy barely got a chance to get going before venture capitalists from Europe and the US came down and began helping out rulers pliable to their causes. There's hardly ever been a time in one single country where people were just left to their own devices. Someone from outside always wanted something. I agree, historically Latin American states kept being colonial states, republics of landowners and property holders who leverage the state against the people in favor of the first-world's interests in cheap raw materials and their own interests of getting rich and loving off. What was the last time a latin american military was actually fighting an external threat instead of murdering their own citizens?
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Oct 25, 2019 13:03
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bagual posted:I'm just frustrated that leftist leaders doing anything that may be presented as legally shady immediately get the dictator word thrown around and dictatorship and evil and whatever, and when the right-wing jails political opposition through ideologically motivated judges, takes down democratically elected leaders, deals drugs, funds death squads, encourages torture and firing at civilian communities, genocides native populations and murders enviromentalists, elected officials and social movement organizers, it's all completely reasonable and normal and part of the democratic game. I'd just like to clarify I was being sarcastic and never meant to actually accuse Morales of being a dictator. It was mere humorous exaggeration. It just usually precedes "for life," especially what with the Tropico series and whatnot.
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Oct 25, 2019 13:15
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bagual posted:That's the thing, this whole divided election thing reminds me of my country, Brazil, in 2014, when the workers party got reelected for the 4th time on a small vote margin after some social unrest and the opposition immediately made "they stole the election, they want a communist dictatorship" into a talking point, then proceeded to undermine the government and call for street protests immediately after the election until they finally got the impeachment on a flimsy technicality that was of course immediately expunged from the law afterwards. One of Bolsonaro's big takes during the campaign was that our electronic voting system was a communist ploy to keep the left in power, one that he obviously dropped when he won. Isn't electronic voting prone to hacking? A lot of American posters on here are adamantly against anything but paper voting.
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Oct 25, 2019 16:30
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Even if it's prone to hacking how is it less safe than paper ballots who have been frauded for centuries now
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Oct 25, 2019 16:47
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Pretty much every anti-corruption think-thank or NGO has argued against electronic voting systems that are not backed with paper ballots because it increases the chances of undetectable fraud and you can just use the money you were going to spend on your fancy new electronic system and use it to mitigate whatever avenues for fraud there are with paper ballots. LATAM countries are trying to move to a sort of hybrid electronic-paper ballot system whereas the US uses a hodge-podge of terrifyingly insecure WinXP kiosks in some states and traditional paper ballots in others. My post should not in any way be construed as me trying to defend Bolsonaro who is a huge piece of poo poo who was 100% scaremongering about voter fraud to rile up his base, just like best friend DJT and every other right-wing lunatic.
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Oct 25, 2019 16:49
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I think electronic voting in Brazil, while it works and is very practical, was a bad idea just because now every loving election there will be people screaming "fraud! the ballots have been hacked!" No matter if its just as safe or even safer, is more a matter of perception: is a machine, people dont know whats going on there, and is harder to prove they werent frauded then papers you can count and recount Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 16:54
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