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Strudel Man posted:See, I would be concerned about everyone playing basically the same in that case. From what they've said, it won't be like that. They seem to have more freedom to be different now. Since the original game was still heavily based on CK1's feudal model and that doesn't really fit a lot of nations but they kinda...forced it in. Especially now landless characters are an option according to RPS.
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Oct 24, 2019 12:58
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Average Bear posted:Turns out the "Deus Vult" controversy was a bunch of hot air. My phone for some loving reason tends to occationally suggest that I read poo poo from right wing rags which I just ignore, but I guess this was why one article was somewhere along the lines of "Political correction forces developers to change their games".
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Oct 24, 2019 13:08
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A super-aeolipile wouldn't be enough to get an Industrial Revolution going in antiquity, regardless. Metallurgy aside, the institutional and financial tools to get industrialists gleefully building factories left and right wasn't there. There's no joint-stock companies to raise capital quickly, no papermaking to spam the documents you need to keep a business organized (and no cheap paper also means it's more costly to propagate scientific findings), no printing press, no double-entry bookkeeping, no patents, and a plethora of other institutional innovations, which together mean there simply wasn't enough to start the boom we associate with the Industrial Revolution. In fact, if I want to overdo the argument, I'd go so far as to say the steam engine wasn't even necessary for an industrial revolution. Imagine a Greco-Roman manufacturing explosion based upon a thousand waterwheels and a complex canal network. Imagine.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:37
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You all need to read Prof. Neville Morely's article on Trajan's Engines: https://www.jstor.org/stable/826934?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
Astroclassicist fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 13:44
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Ofaloaf posted:A super-aeolipile wouldn't be enough to get an Industrial Revolution going in antiquity, regardless. Metallurgy aside, the institutional and financial tools to get industrialists gleefully building factories left and right wasn't there. There's no joint-stock companies to raise capital quickly, no papermaking to spam the documents you need to keep a business organized (and no cheap paper also means it's more costly to propagate scientific findings), no printing press, no double-entry bookkeeping, no patents, and a plethora of other institutional innovations, which together mean there simply wasn't enough to start the boom we associate with the Industrial Revolution. We're all contaminated by ideas of a tech tree and funny lines of thinking like "invention of stirrups means knights means feudalism". And also progress as a linear thing. Nowadays we can see some backward Asian or African town and count how much stuff it misses compared to New York or London but historically it doesn't work like that. Comparing societies would look more like comparing modern companies. Those guys work with cutting edge tech but the pay isn't that nice and there's a lot of crunches. And that company has an average employee age of 49 but they're nice and there's always a fruit basket in the kitchen. And those guys work with databases from the 80's but do a very important medical research. It's all much muddier than a line on a chart.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:50
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Ofaloaf posted:A super-aeolipile wouldn't be enough to get an Industrial Revolution going in antiquity, regardless. Metallurgy aside, the institutional and financial tools to get industrialists gleefully building factories left and right wasn't there. There's no joint-stock companies to raise capital quickly, no papermaking to spam the documents you need to keep a business organized (and no cheap paper also means it's more costly to propagate scientific findings), no printing press, no double-entry bookkeeping, no patents, and a plethora of other institutional innovations, which together mean there simply wasn't enough to start the boom we associate with the Industrial Revolution.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:15
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Splicer posted:Are you actually arguing that capitalism is required for technological growth? No, he's making the point that the industrial revolution was intrinsically linked to capitalism. He even ended his post outlining an alternative possibility for a Greco-Roman industrial revolution outside the circumstances of the historic one.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:16
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Arrhythmia posted:No, he's making the point that the industrial revolution was intrinsically linked to capitalism. He even ended his post outlining an alternative possibility for a Greco-Roman industrial revolution outside the circumstances of the historic one.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:21
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Splicer posted:Then why is it in reply to a post about the steam engine referencing a joke image about technological progress that doesn't even reference the industrial revolution? Because he thought it would be an interesting point to make.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:22
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Arrhythmia posted:Because he thought it would be an interesting point to make.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:24
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The aeolipile does set me off, tbh. I used to post on alternate history sites, and people just took one look at the aeolipile and ran with it to ridiculous lengths. I sorta just had a flashback to that and started posting.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:47
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It's a cute little angle for alt-history, but if it was actually good enough to get some real power out of, then it probably would've gotten actually used for something. Romans had water wheels that they used for milling and mining, so they would've had a use for the rotational energy, but when you compare it to the first proper steam engines that used high pressures of air to move pistons, they were very different things based on pretty different principles. I wonder what kind of energy you could get out of a free-spinning boiler like that, and if it would be any greater than the energy of the man who was stoking the fire.
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Oct 24, 2019 15:28
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Splicer posted:The phrasing read to me like it was supposed to be a rebuttal of something but maybe I'm reading too much into it I liked the post and thought it made an interesting point about, as Ofaloaf put it, institutional innovations. 
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Oct 24, 2019 15:52
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Ofaloaf posted:A super-aeolipile wouldn't be enough to get an Industrial Revolution going in antiquity, regardless. Metallurgy aside, the institutional and financial tools to get industrialists gleefully building factories left and right wasn't there. There's no joint-stock companies to raise capital quickly, no papermaking to spam the documents you need to keep a business organized (and no cheap paper also means it's more costly to propagate scientific findings), no printing press, no double-entry bookkeeping, no patents, and a plethora of other institutional innovations, which together mean there simply wasn't enough to start the boom we associate with the Industrial Revolution. Most of these things existed in Song China. Why does no one talk about the gap left by the Mongol Dark Ages?
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Oct 24, 2019 17:24
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Not as fun to blame non-white non-Christians
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Oct 24, 2019 17:27
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Splicer posted:Are you actually arguing that capitalism is required for technological growth? I would. Mantis42 posted:Most of these things existed in Song China. Why does no one talk about the gap left by the Mongol Dark Ages? I always took it that what the mongols did (in china) was not totally unusual for the area. They essentially hopped in and put on the emperor hat for a few generations and then became lovely and failed. The muslim world got totally hosed by mongols tho. SnoochtotheNooch fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 17:48
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Average Bear posted:I never play the norse because they're toxic masculinity. lovely and gross. lol norse is one of the few cultures in CK2 that allows females to be commanders and warleaders, out of the box. its much less toxic then like the majority of the world during this time.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:03
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Tormented posted:lol norse is one of the few cultures in CK2 that allows females to be commanders and warleaders, out of the box.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:05
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Please stop getting trolled by a literal genocide apologist. This.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:07
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By the way, sorry again about the genocide. I apologize.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:07
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Average Bear posted:By the way, sorry again about the genocide. I apologize. *In a Ricky Ricardo voice* Average Beeeaar, you have some esplaining to do!!!
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Oct 24, 2019 18:08
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Chomp8645 posted:*In a Ricky Ricardo voice* Lol *Lucy desperately tries to hide all of the corpses coming down her conveyor line*
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Oct 24, 2019 18:11
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*Droopily looking up from signing "I'm sorry" hallmark cards* Ehhhhhhhh! It's a living.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:12
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Splicer posted:Are you actually arguing that capitalism is required for technological growth? What do you think kickstarted the industrial revolution?
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Oct 24, 2019 18:51
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Capitalism developed as a result of the material conditions created by the mercantilist era and the early industrial revolution and the enclosure movement, it didn't cause them.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:07
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Average Bear posted:*Droopily looking up from signing "I'm sorry" hallmark cards* Ehhhhhhhh! It's a living. Narrator voice: Ha! Ha! Ha! We'll be right back with 'I love Genocide denial' after these commercial messages.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:15
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Average Bear posted:By the way, sorry again about the genocide. I apologize. Please stop your genocide apologetics. Take pride in it instead!
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Oct 25, 2019 02:47
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:I always took it that what the mongols did (in china) was not totally unusual for the area. They essentially hopped in and put on the emperor hat for a few generations and then became lovely and failed. Not necessarily unusual, but still incredibly brutal and destructive. The whole conquest meant decades of warfare.
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Oct 25, 2019 03:58
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It's possible the aeolipile could have become something more, but it would have taken the vision of an end result to do that, and absent that inspiration it was going to remain a neat thing to show off at parties or something. Rome had plenty of time from when it was described, with enormous prosperity and stability in much of the empire, in which to have worked on it.
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Oct 25, 2019 04:39
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The Aelopile makes me look around and wonder what tchotchkes I have that are actually the secret to completely changing the mode of production. Like, are my descendants going to be looking back and laughing at me for not figuring out how nailclippers are basically the key to an FTL engine?
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Oct 25, 2019 04:42
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All the Romans had to do was put more science beakers into researching Steam Engine and we could have been in space by now, smdh
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Oct 25, 2019 06:23
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Fister Roboto posted:All the Romans had to do was put more science beakers into researching Steam Engine and we could have been in space by now, smdh No, they were missing this vital tech:  In Civ I, it had no in-game effect (!) but did unlock Steam Engine and Gunpowder. I love the flavor the whole tech tree was going for: 
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Oct 25, 2019 06:38
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Love that you can develop a universal cure for cancer before submarines, lunar flights, and nukes.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:01
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I always liked that you discovered the alphabet, then writing. No idea what you're doing with an alphabet if you don't have the concept of writing yet...
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Oct 25, 2019 08:44
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When playing Civ Vi I consistently build universities before inventing the wheel.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:49
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I repeat again and again: Civilization caused huge harm to people understanding of history and life and whatever. Almost every concept in it is an understandable simplification of reality and no one consciously thinks about it as a historical simulator, but interactive media are powerful that way. They make you feel for granted a lot of things like there's a line between a barbarian and civilization, there's a clear scientific progress measurement, bigger cities and empires are good as long as they can keep it up, everyone can look like modern America if they play their cards right and so on and so on. Paradox is not perfect of course but it has more nuance and somewhat less glorifying. Not like it tells you "good job on colonizing this are and destroying whole cultures" but at least it doesn't pretend that history is a joyful march of liberty and progress.
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Oct 25, 2019 09:03
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Angry Salami posted:I always liked that you discovered the alphabet, then writing. No idea what you're doing with an alphabet if you don't have the concept of writing yet... Writing can be incredibly useful as an administration tool, and it seems to have been invented and developed in that capacity. When illiterate people came in contact with a literate culture, they started using an alphabet for magical purposes, have artisans make inscriptions on objects, as blessing, but that is a completely different use of an alphabet. I am talking about the runes of Nordic people in the late Roman and Early Middle Ages. They didn't write letters to communicate, their society wasn't literate, yet they had their alphabet, in a kind of write-only mode. That is not a use of an alphabet that will help with science. It was used for magic, prestige and decoration.
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Oct 25, 2019 11:03
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ilitarist posted:I repeat again and again: Civilization caused huge harm to people understanding of history and life and whatever. Almost every concept in it is an understandable simplification of reality and no one consciously thinks about it as a historical simulator, but interactive media are powerful that way. They make you feel for granted a lot of things like there's a line between a barbarian and civilization, there's a clear scientific progress measurement, bigger cities and empires are good as long as they can keep it up, everyone can look like modern America if they play their cards right and so on and so on. Never thought of it that way, but this is 100% true and linked to my main criticism of 4X / grand strategy as a whole: no one has figured (afaik) a way to make playing tall viable and rewarding. It's either "you can do OK but you just have many, many hours of waiting for nothing to really happen" or "you'll just be crushed by people bigger than you", and never even comes close to "you can have advantages by not expanding like a madman" Many games have some mechanic to stop people from blobbing out of control, but usually blobbing remains encouraged and the penalties for overblobbing are ridiculously small compared to remaining small and not having enough money, materials, army or whatever else to literally just play the game... Even in CK2 you can only go so far as a count with a 3 county demesne or whatever, even though it's by far the game closest to letting you have fun in a tall playthrough. Or are there some games where playing tall is good and cool? Point me in that direction please
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Oct 25, 2019 11:33
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ilitarist posted:everyone can look like modern America if they play their cards right and so on and so on I mean all they have to do is rush the Aesthetics branch of the Culture techtree in order to pump out prestige and become a great power, then shift focus to trains and let your capitalists build a factroy or two. Shame the USA is hardcoded to hoover up all the immigrants from Europe though.
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Oct 25, 2019 11:50
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I'd like a civ game that uses a cyclical model of history where you have to deal with inevitable civilisational collapse and periods of mass migration and warlordism.
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Oct 25, 2019 12:05
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