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Vichan posted:I couldn't help myself and just had to look it up. The only female character that those criticisms could plausibly be leveled against is Finree. I think it offers some insight into the chud mindset that they don't see the female POV characters' flaws as being flaws. "A cop who dedicates her life to ensuring that the government police state can keep their collective boot on the necks of the oppressed"; "A venture capitalist shark who, when forced to experience life as the very poor do, then doubles down on her rich lifestyle", "The daughter of a head of state who will instantly  her love interest when he attempts mercy and reconciliation with the enemy"GOD Abercrombie, why do all your female characters have to be perfect Mary Sues? 
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Oct 19, 2019 18:48
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Magitek posted:The only female character that those criticisms could plausibly be leveled against is Finree. I think it offers some insight into the chud mindset that they don't see the female POV characters' flaws as being flaws. Now that you mention it, finree probably was too perfect. Her only flaw is that she's a woman in a man's world. Even in this book every wise character just talks about how smart she is. Abercrombie could have made something about the fact that she was obsessed with climbing the political ranks while committed to the son of a treasonous lord, but that was pretty much just handwaved away
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Oct 20, 2019 03:41
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Magitek posted:The only female character that those criticisms could plausibly be leveled against is Finree. I think it offers some insight into the chud mindset that they don't see the female POV characters' flaws as being flaws. The thing you list about Rikke arguably isn't a flaw, depending on how much her Long Eye thing affects her. And he did threaten to have her viciously raped by animals. But Rikke clearly is flawed for other reasons. Doesn't appear to have learned many of the things you might expect of the daughter of a leader, clearly has a bit of a problem with anger and vengeance, which does underlie what you point to. I agree it's a dumb reading. There are recent works where you could legitimately make the argument this guy is making but... This ain't one of them. He clearly has a siege mentality and is on the defensive against all popular culture. Terror Sweat posted:Now that you mention it, finree probably was too perfect. Her only flaw is that she's a woman in a man's world. Even in this book every wise character just talks about how smart she is. Abercrombie could have made something about the fact that she was obsessed with climbing the political ranks while committed to the son of a treasonous lord, but that was pretty much just handwaved away I'm alright with Finree. I don't think she was so unrealistically perfect for a mature, smart woman. And you can still find flaws - notably, mishandling her son a bit. Maybe what you mention about her political climbing (which we didn't see much here but certainly saw to some extent in The Heroes) come out in later books where it looks like Leo and Orso will end up in conflict?
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Oct 20, 2019 09:42
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Neurosis posted:The thing you list about Rikke arguably isn't a flaw, depending on how much her Long Eye thing affects her. And he did threaten to have her viciously raped by animals. But Rikke clearly is flawed for other reasons. Doesn't appear to have learned many of the things you might expect of the daughter of a leader, clearly has a bit of a problem with anger and vengeance, which does underlie what you point to. I agree it's a dumb reading. There are recent works where you could legitimately make the argument this guy is making but... This ain't one of them. He clearly has a siege mentality and is on the defensive against all popular culture. Well in the heroes Finree is smart, attractive, rich, has a brilliant tactical mind, is the daughter of the unions military leader, not vain and vapid like those *other girls* who only talk about clothes and poo poo, able to successfully negotiate with a barbarian giant AND black dow, isn't afraid of anyone. It feels a little much
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Oct 20, 2019 22:01
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Terror Sweat posted:Well in the heroes Finree is smart, attractive, rich, has a brilliant tactical mind, is the daughter of the unions military leader, not vain and vapid like those *other girls* who only talk about clothes and poo poo, able to successfully negotiate with a barbarian giant AND black dow, isn't afraid of anyone. It feels a little much She's also cold, rude, distant, traumatized by her imprisonment, making GBS threads herself when she tries to hardball Black Dow, and pushes away her loved ones when she's released, and oblivious to Gorst the Incel obsessing over her. She's smart and capable, but not perfect by any means.
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Oct 20, 2019 22:13
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Fly Molo posted:She's also cold, rude, distant, traumatized by her imprisonment, making GBS threads herself when she tries to hardball Black Dow, and pushes away her loved ones when she's released, and oblivious to Gorst the Incel obsessing over her. She's smart and capable, but not perfect by any means. Yeah maybe I'm trying to justifying that one guys viewpoint a bit too much
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Oct 21, 2019 00:20
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I think many of the CHUD types don't view female characters' flaws as glaring or noticeable because they don't cause them to fail. It's not about being a well rounded and believable character, it's about the fact that female characters are able to triumph and succeed on their own terms or even by luck. Unless Rikke's thirst for vengeance causes her to die alone and unmourned having been hacked to death in an assassination in a privy somewhere, they don't see it as a flaw. His real problem with the book is that the female characters end up maintaining their positions/more or less achieving their goals while the male characters either don't or require some sort of help from female characters. I mean basically that guy doesn't want to see female characters be successful period and wants male characters who are confident and don't fail. Or at least, based on the fact that he has female characters he likes, female characters can succeed as long as they're miserable or totally sexless (e.g. Ferro) but there have to be successful male characters as well. The bit when he starts complaining about modern cultural things being brought into the book makes me think the guy might be an insufferable 'New Atheist' types who probably thinks Bayaz is a total badass mastermind and fails to see any kind of critique of religion because 'it's so obviously bullshit'.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:01
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He also hates ~any~ portrayal of workers struggling or... immigration?
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Oct 21, 2019 18:07
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Fly Molo posted:She's also cold, rude, distant, traumatized by her imprisonment, making GBS threads herself when she tries to hardball Black Dow, and pushes away her loved ones when she's released, and oblivious to Gorst the Incel obsessing over her. She's smart and capable, but not perfect by any means. She also is slapped right the hell down by Bayaz (along with pretty much everyone else) when she starts getting too ambitious and flippant with him. She's just as morally compromised as everyone else in these books.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:21
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look guys i'd be perfectly happy to read books about the adventures of logen ninefingers and his dozen and northmen in general until i die but how the hell are you gonna criticize joe for writing about whoever the gently caress he wants? did this nerd read the description before he bought the book and read it and decided to neg it because joe had the audacity to use WOMEN as pov characters? i'm mad as hell
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Oct 22, 2019 01:55
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Four full length novels with Logen as a main character is just entirely insufficient, okay
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Oct 22, 2019 02:15
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licensed B9 manga
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Oct 22, 2019 03:29
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edit: double post
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Oct 22, 2019 03:29
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Magitek posted:Four full length novels with Logen as a main character is just entirely insufficient, okay unironically agree but i'll take what mr. abercrombie sees fit to give me Nevvy Z posted:licensed B9 manga please no more first law comic books
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Oct 22, 2019 03:30
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Finished Little Hatred. It was alright. There was a whole lotta sexin' goin on in this book. Seemed kinda like Blade Itself, where things will get better as the series goes on.
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Oct 23, 2019 03:05
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Crimpolioni posted:Any character who isn't a literal demon dedicated to doing nothing but evil for the sake of doing evil 24/7 will have people writing paragraphs in their defense, in my experience I mean, there literally is not a single character in the series who is not morally compromised in some way. For example, everyone wants to fillate Logen (not that I don’t love the character), but the man is a loving butcher who murders his friends and a child on screen in the books. Clearly someone could take that, sit in the mud and say “Logen is a terrible irredeemable human being,” except he is not, which I think is a central theme to these novels—period. Like I said, everyone in these novels are pretty awful people, but human enough to worthy of potential redemption. Except Bayaz. And Cosca, sure he leads an immoral band of mercenaries (what mercenaries aren’t immoral), but he sticks to people he loves... and ends up almost sacrificing his life for those people, and ends up doing heroic things. If you think about Cosca, who protects his men by taking jobs where they don’t have fight, or faking it, takes Glockta’s money at Dagoska and actually defends the city and the civilians until the very end, when it would have been far easier to just take Gurkish gold and Glockta’s and still turn over the city to its fate. I am really truly puzzled by this notion that Cosca sticks out as one of the truly terrible people in the novels, who is completely lacking of a single redeeming quality, by which someone might draw a comparison to Baron Munchausen.
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Oct 23, 2019 17:07
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ZombieLenin posted:I am really truly puzzled by this notion that Cosca sticks out as one of the truly terrible people in the novels, who is completely lacking of a single redeeming quality, by which someone might draw a comparison to Baron Munchausen. Cosca has less remorse than basically everyone else that you see onscreen, I think is the difference. In part this is because we don't see his internal thoughts in the way we see those of Logen etc.
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Oct 23, 2019 17:54
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Honestly I disagree a lot with this notion that's often applied to fictional characters that caring about their loved ones is a redeeming feature or a measure of human decency. Everyone except complete psychopaths cares about their loved ones, the measure of human decency in the real world is whether you give a gently caress about other people than just your closest friends and family. Fictional characters can be completely horrible and still be interesting and charismatic, you don't have to look for every sign that maybe they're not that bad.
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Oct 23, 2019 18:03
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rudd threetrees. the rock of uffrith. look no further for a man who only ever did what he thought was right.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:16
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ZombieLenin posted:If you think about Cosca, who protects his men by taking jobs where they don’t have fight, or faking it, takes Glockta’s money at Dagoska and actually defends the city and the civilians until the very end, when it would have been far easier to just take Gurkish gold and Glockta’s and still turn over the city to its fate. [/spoiler] Isn't it implied that he switches over to the Gurkish at the cost of most of his company being sold into slavery?
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Oct 23, 2019 20:51
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Suxpool posted:rudd threetrees. the rock of uffrith. look no further for a man who only ever did what he thought was right. Yulwei was also decent, at least for a magi.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:26
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Forley the Weakest.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:06
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ZombieLenin posted:I mean, there literally is not a single character in the series who is not morally compromised in some way. I'd argue that he's a defensible character until Red Country, where he's presented as truly irredeemable - probably because as somebody said up-thread it's the first time that you see him through the eyes of the people he exploits instead of the people he tries to ingratiate himself to. Edit: and in particular, I think the thing that makes him irredeemable in that book is that he he has the power to prevent the atrocities his men cause, but he presents himself as a helpless onlooker with no power. He's one of the few characters who doesn't either try to prevent the evil he causes or embrace it wholeheartedly - he rejects the idea that he has any agency even when he self-evidently does, and as a result pretends that he's blameless in the face of atrocity. I think that makes him particularly despicable, arguably even more than a Pike or Glotka who knows that what they're doing is evil but acknowledge that they choose to do it. Notahippie fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 23:26
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Notahippie posted:I'd argue that he's a defensible character until Red Country, where he's presented as truly irredeemable - probably because as somebody said up-thread it's the first time that you see him through the eyes of the people he exploits instead of the people he tries to ingratiate himself to. reading between the lines i believe the implication has always been that Cosca doesn't care what atrocities his men commit and just talks a load of bullshit. he's so completely self-interested that it's all beneath his notice.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:45
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ZombieLenin posted:I mean, there literally is not a single character in the series who is not morally compromised in some way. Cosca eventually dies just after unsuccessfully ordering his two remaining men to kill a child to prove his point. He is so reprehensible, that he is run through with his own sword by the very guy whom he hired to tell the world how great he is. Best Served Cold shows him at his best, because he can only not be a fuckup when he has no other choice. And, besides not killing Monza, he shows very little concern about anyone else. He even murders all the other captains who betrayed him for Murcattos.
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Oct 24, 2019 09:05
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I always figured the change was due to age and mental decrepitude brought on by a long life of heavy drinking and maybe syphilis. Like, maybe he actually was a slightly better person between BSC and Red Country. No textual support because I've lost my copies so... eh.
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Oct 24, 2019 09:14
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I would love a short story about him as Grand Duke of Visserine
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Oct 24, 2019 18:49
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Do Bayaz next.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:16
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I always figured the change was due to age and mental decrepitude brought on by a long life of heavy drinking and maybe syphilis. He was slightly better in the sense that he finally reached the bottom in RC. The Company of the Gracious Hand is much smaller and more pitiful than the outfits he has led before, which gives him much less opportunity for lucrative contracts. We meet the guy, who once fought for High Kings and Grand Princes and used to be a Duke, scouring the outskirts of the Union for rebels and plundering villages in the neutral zone. He's bitter because of opportunities he lost and bent on getting enough money to reconquer his former Duchy. But he was never a good person, or even a particularly admirable one. As Temple calls him out, he never cares about anything unless it's currently beyond his reach. Notahippie posted:I'd argue that he's a defensible character until Red Country, where he's presented as truly irredeemable - probably because as somebody said up-thread it's the first time that you see him through the eyes of the people he exploits instead of the people he tries to ingratiate himself to. It's even worse – Sufeen's and Temple's scruples clearly amuse him. He considers them cowards who talk big but are too dependent of his company to really oppose him and rubs it into their noses. He does the same to Lorsen and Brint.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:57
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I'm liking the book up until the 25% mark, but not loving it. Too many PoV characters introduced too quickly for me to really get into any of them, and no real memorable dramatic scenes or well described places. I don't go in for nostalgia at all, so when old characters show up, it's not serving as entertainment like it may for someone else. Maybe I'm just the wrong reader.
MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 22:57
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I'm about done with the new one and so far really all i can say is im glad Glokta and Shivers get a fairly nice turn of things. Shivers especially just gets totally dumped on in that Styrian novel and just, goddamn.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:03
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I always figured the change was due to age and mental decrepitude brought on by a long life of heavy drinking and maybe syphilis. Like somebody else said, I saw him as the same person as in the other novels, same old Cosca, just on the other side this time. And then it wasn't so charming anymore.
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Oct 25, 2019 12:49
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm about done with the new one and so far really all i can say is im glad Glokta and Shivers get a fairly nice turn of things. Shivers especially just gets totally dumped on in that Styrian novel and just, goddamn. My preferred ending for Glokta would be Rews actually shanking him, and I can't really buy that he wouldn't
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Oct 25, 2019 19:13
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Crimpolioni posted:My preferred ending for Glokta would be Rews actually shanking him, and I can't really buy that he wouldn't His story is plausible, and is similar to Vick’s. “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven”, replacing the latter part with “than get tortured to death for killing a high-ranking member of the Inquisition”.
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Oct 25, 2019 19:22
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should Rews actually bare Glokta a grudge? it's understandable to be bitter that you got caught but as far as i recall it was a righteous bust
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Oct 25, 2019 19:56
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Suxpool posted:should Rews actually bare Glokta a grudge? it's understandable to be bitter that you got caught but as far as i recall it was a righteous bust maybe it's been too long since I read the first book but iirc glokta doesnt even do the torturing. well, most of it. he has a practical beat the poo poo out of him for a confession and then leaves and someone else is the one that burns his whole body.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:48
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The burns are the result of an accident that happens shortly after he arrives in the north, which IIRC are pretty common in these penal work camps
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Oct 25, 2019 23:04
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Suxpool posted:should Rews actually bare Glokta a grudge? it's understandable to be bitter that you got caught but as far as i recall it was a righteous bust Yeah, but this is hardly a consolation when you get tortured, shipped to a gulag, nearly worked to death and disfigured.
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Oct 26, 2019 01:22
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also yeah glokta talks Pike down by pointing out that since nobody knows his old identity, glokta can make good use of him if hes willing to put it all aside, whereas if he murders the arch lector he'll just be an outlaw
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Oct 26, 2019 01:55
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Just in case you were wondering what kind of person big dawg 293 is... Bigdawg293 5.0 out of 5 stars Best Creed album, start to finish. July 8, 2018 Format: MP3 Music I really loved this cd. Every song is good, start to finish and is their best overall work in my opinion. Previous Creed albums had 3-4 classic, timeless songs that were incredible but also had several mediocre and forgettable songs as well. You can find the good songs from their previous three albums on the "best of" cd which is a pretty good compilation. This album does not suffer that problem, Every song is great. Since Creed has broken up I follow all the members bands, Alter Bridge, Tremonti and Art of Anarchy. I hope some day they will come together and record again and not worry about touring as that seems to be where the friction exists. While their solo and side projects are great, none of them equal Creed. These guys were magic together. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 26, 2019 03:21
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