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Anyway, so the thread is on fire and it's all of y'alls fault
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Oct 25, 2019 18:30
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Daric posted:Anyway, so the thread is on fire and it's all of y'alls fault This is what happens when y'all read only Dresden and none of the other UF out there. Like Kitty Goes to Washington! This easily has the most realistic horror sequence I've seen in one of these yet: the horror of being pulled over by a cop at a traffic stop. And then the MIB come and take you away to meet Queen Vampire of Washington DC.
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Oct 25, 2019 18:36
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Daric posted:Anyway, so the thread is on fire and it's all of you guys' fault
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Oct 25, 2019 18:46
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I read Dresden, Verus, Rivers, Kate Daniels, the Libriomancer series, and I even read the Iron Druid series all the way through to the end even though it was terrible. But! I read these books as entertainment and escapism, not to feel justified in the moral choices made by the characters. I don't care if Dresden kills ever member of the Red Court but not the White Court. He hasn't even tried to go after the Black Court. But I also don't care. I'm just along for the ride.
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Oct 25, 2019 18:50
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rndmnmbr posted:There's a lot of mileage in the monster struggling to be human, and I see what Butcher is going for with Thomas. But sex and consent is a hot button topic, rape is thought of as a particularly evil and vile act, and it touches the lives of a huge number of people, more than you might realize. So it was a poor choice of Butcher's to make his struggling monster a sex vampire. Pretty much any other choice would be far more sympathetic.  anilEhilated posted:e: You know what, screw this. This is not the place to be exploring statements on moral relativity, no matter how idiotic.  I think I'm done with this.Daric posted:I read Dresden, Verus, Rivers, Kate Daniels, the Libriomancer series, and I even read the Iron Druid series all the way through to the end even though it was terrible. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 19:12
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StrixNebulosa posted:This is what happens when y'all read only Dresden and none of the other UF out there. Like Kitty Goes to Washington! This easily has the most realistic horror sequence I've seen in one of these yet: the horror of being pulled over by a cop at a traffic stop. And then the MIB come and take you away to meet Queen Vampire of Washington DC. BRB ordering a book. Also as an aside, this is the thread on ALL Urban Fantasy, and some fantasy. Let's not bash anyone for specifically reading Dresden.
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Oct 25, 2019 19:19
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Exmond posted:BRB ordering a book. Start with Kitty and the Midnight Hour, that's the first in the series.
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Oct 25, 2019 19:30
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holy poo poo there's a crooked cop in World of the Lupi. I mean maybe I should have expected this but I did not expect full on bigotry and a false arrest and our heroine realizing that she's in a crooked department.
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Oct 25, 2019 19:40
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Good thing she became a co-ed before she told Harry that, otherwise he might not have noticed she was talking to him. One thing I recall is that Butcher wrote his first published novel, Storm Front in the 1990s as part of a writing class. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the class he took greatly emphasized "write what you know." Jim Butcher was born (and presumably living much of his life in) Independence, Missouri, which is about an 8 hour drive from Chicago and about a 4 hour drive from St. Louis. He initially wanted to set Dresden in St. Louis but Laurell K. Hamilton already had the Anita Blake series set there (and her agent represented him to get him published). Chicago was further away but probably also a place he was fairly familiar with. Butcher is white and if you notice, most of the circle of friends and enemies around Harry Dresden are also white with notable exceptions in fellow warden Carlos Rodriguez and Native American Senior Council member Listens-to-Wind. Jim Butcher is straight, so there's a dearth of gay characters. I wonder if Butcher is Catholic because he seems comfortable writing the Carpenters and others involved in Catholicism. Being thought gay gets under Dresden's skin a little bit because it likely got under Butcher's skin a little bit when he was younger. Jim Butcher writes out of his experience. He writes what he knows. The problem with that is that he doesn't seems to be expanding what he knows. He stays in his comfort zone and his map of "story space" seems to be filled with cautions and warnings of "Here Be Monsters." I think he avoids people of other races, cultures and sexual orientations not so much out of bigotry but because he fears getting them wrong. Because he learned a long time ago to "write what you know."
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Oct 25, 2019 20:20
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Necrotizer F posted:The problem with that is that he doesn't seems to be expanding what he knows. He stays in his comfort zone and his map of "story space" seems to be filled with cautions and warnings of "Here Be Monsters." I think he avoids people of other races, cultures and sexual orientations not so much out of bigotry but because he fears getting them wrong. Because he learned a long time ago to "write what you know." As a dabbling writer myself, it scares the poo poo out of me to try to write non-white non-Americans because while I can fake it, oh god you can tell it won't be authentic. I am the whitest goon from the whitest part of New York state. And I don't want to offend or appropriate anyone! I can't speak for Butcher yet, but if he wants to change this in himself, he should try writing more short stories, pushing his own boundaries. I need to do the same.
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Oct 25, 2019 20:29
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Hub Cat posted:I think Butcher just wanted to have his Angel (or Spike ironically enough) but with a twist because the Red Court are basically traditional vampires and as I said months ago he just isn't that thoughtful of a writer and didn't consider the implications. He didn't sit down and consider any of this most likely and it just is what it is He could have stuck with traditional vampires (already rape analogues) and gotten away with it. It's definitely the more overt sexual predation that goes hand-in-hand with the White Court that's an issue. He could have stuck with the idea of demons feeding on human emotions but picked anything other than lust as his first and primary choice, they wouldn't feel so icky. White Court centric books being horror novels would have aged way better and been a cool change of pace.
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Oct 25, 2019 21:17
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Why? Succubi and Incubi are mythological creatures dreamed up thousands of years ago. It’s not like he’s the first or the only to have creatures who feed on sex. Edit: Realistically it sounds like several people in here just don't enjoy the Dresden Files books and, while that's a perfectly acceptable opinion to have, relentlessly bashing on the author of the books in a thread specifically catered to fans of the books, where the author will neither see nor take advice from said bashing, is maybe not the best place for it. Butcher also hasn't written a book in 6 years, so who's to say he hasn't progressed in his views. We'll all just have to wait and see. Daric fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 21:59
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Woke Pulp as a genre. Sounds like an oxymoron.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:01
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Daric posted:Why? Succubi and Incubi are mythological creatures dreamed up thousands of years ago. It’s not like he’s the first or the only to have creatures who feed on sex. The harsh critics of Butcher in this thread are those who enjoy his books. And threads about a series are the best place to discuss them even if you don't like them. Butcher writes schlock fiction in a very enjoyable way. Discussing the problematic elements is something we do, and have done, for the life of the thread
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Oct 25, 2019 22:23
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torgeaux posted:The harsh critics of Butcher in this thread are those who enjoy his books. And threads about a series are the best place to discuss them even if you don't like them. Butcher writes schlock fiction in a very enjoyable way. Discussing the problematic elements is something we do, and have done, for the life of the thread Eh, I'm with the guy you are replying to. This thread goes into cycles, people condemning butcher's style of writing, sexism. The defenders remain the same, the accusers change every month.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:28
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Exmond posted:Eh, I'm with the guy you are replying to. This thread goes into cycles, people condemning butcher's style of writing, sexism. The defenders remain the same, the accusers change every month. Ok, so do you think people who don't like the books shouldn't post here?
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Oct 25, 2019 22:30
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Exmond posted:Eh, I'm with the guy you are replying to. This thread goes into cycles, people condemning butcher's style of writing, sexism. The defenders remain the same, the accusers change every month. Uh. I and multiple people in this thread have been posting here regularly. I also enjoy the Dresden Files. I just don't give it a pass on its lovely parts. Hell, I can do it for other series too Ask me how goddamn tired I am of Anne in Verus because it is a lot. Rivers of London is masterfully written except I dislike its dumbass protagonist a lot. Liking something isn't the same as calling it flawless.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:33
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what about people who like some parts of the books but not other parts 
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Oct 25, 2019 22:34
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ImpAtom posted:Uh. I and multiple people in this thread have been posting here regularly. I also enjoy the Dresden Files. I just don't give it a pass on its lovely parts. And the Rivers discussion is a good point. I never see Grant as a dumbass so it's a good discussion because it's such a different view of the character.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:34
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People forgetting Jim had a book released in 2015 itt.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:38
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Inspector 34 posted:People forgetting Jim had a book released in 2015 itt. Yeah but he didn't write it in 2015. So it's been at least 5 years. And the last Dresden book was written in 2013.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:45
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torgeaux posted:Ok, so do you think people who don't like the books shouldn't post here? No, feel free to post. But it's a cycle that is getting a bit old. Everyone just seems to be rehashing the same arguments or going over the same tired points. It's very similar to the GiantBomb thread cycles.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:45
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My issue with is that it's the same argument people have been making since before Skin Game came out. So we're looking at 7-8 years, if not more, of people saying the same poo poo. We're finally at the point where a new book is going to release and should be excited about it but here we go on the "Harry is a sexist homophobe who condones rape" train again. Edit: Like seriously people, this is a book series that has been going on for so long that they actually made a tv show out of it which aired and was cancelled 12 years ago. You're not changing anything now. Daric fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 22:47
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torgeaux posted:And the Rivers discussion is a good point. I never see Grant as a dumbass so it's a good discussion because it's such a different view of the character. Peter Grant is pretty obviously an idiot, reading between the lines, he's just the first Official Magician to be young enough that he approaches magic with a modern mindset - look to Abigail if you want to see what a young person with drive and intelligence learning magic is like.
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Oct 25, 2019 23:05
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Daric posted:My issue with is that it's the same argument people have been making since before Skin Game came out. So we're looking at 7-8 years, if not more, of people saying the same poo poo. We're finally at the point where a new book is going to release and should be excited about it but here we go on the "Harry is a sexist homophobe who condones rape" train again. Uhh if anything this argument is probably going to come up more and more as the new book gets closer to release and new people try and jump into the series. It comes up a lot because Dresden Files is one of the top recommended Urban Fantasy series and probably the most well known so people use it as a starting point and the bad stuff looks worse as time goes on and people are posting about it instead of just giving up because it is a fun read gross stuff aside. Getting mad that new people are coming in and pointing out the fart in the room isn't going to do anything for anybody. Here I'll criticize Rivers for equality sake: I think the fights in it are boring and come off as clinical instead of cool Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 23:05
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ookiimarukochan posted:Peter Grant is pretty obviously an idiot, reading between the lines, he's just the first Official Magician to be young enough that he approaches magic with a modern mindset - look to Abigail if you want to see what a young person with drive and intelligence learning magic is like. It's not obvious at all. You can read each bit with that lean and see it right there. I see him as a guy who is always thinking, wool-gathering as it were, and thinks global thoughts when he should be thinking details in the moment .He's clearly not an idiot, as I read the books. Abigail wouldn't necessarily be more successful that Peter, either. She's clearly smarter, will be a better practitioner, but not necessarily a better copper. Daric posted:My issue with is that it's the same argument people have been making since before Skin Game came out. So we're looking at 7-8 years, if not more, of people saying the same poo poo. We're finally at the point where a new book is going to release and should be excited about it but here we go on the "Harry is a sexist homophobe who condones rape" train again. Yes, and you know it's a, not always the same people, b, informed by standards as they change, even in the last couple of years. No one is arguing to change books that have been written, you know because that's stupid, but pointing out the flaws that exist in the character and as a separate related issue, in the writing of the author. What do you think discussion of books is? torgeaux fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 23:36
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Have you ever worked a job where different people came in every day and argued with you about the same poo poo? If not, consider yourself blessed. It’s hard to have the same arguments for 7 years, with no minds being changed on either side. It gets old. What I would prefer to discuss is where do you think the story is going? Do you think Harry will find some way to get out of being beholden to Mab? What do you think is going to happen to Molly and Mouse and the Swords?
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Oct 25, 2019 23:49
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torgeaux posted:It's not obvious at all. You can read each bit with that lean and see it right there. I see him as a guy who is always thinking, wool-gathering as it were, and thinks global thoughts when he should be thinking details in the moment .He's clearly not an idiot, as I read the books.
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Oct 25, 2019 23:50
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Daric posted:Have you ever worked a job where different people came in every day and argued with you about the same poo poo? If not, consider yourself blessed. It’s hard to have the same arguments for 7 years, with no minds being changed on either side. It gets old. Maybe put it in the OP "newcomers not allowed to mention how Dresden has problematic stuff in it" or else I'm going to retread the same ground when I read Dresden 2
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Oct 25, 2019 23:51
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StrixNebulosa posted:Maybe put it in the OP "newcomers not allowed to mention how Dresden has problematic stuff in it" or else I'm going to retread the same ground when I read Dresden 2 Nah, because one or two people being frustrated that a long running thread about a long running series repeats itself is just the price you pay for participating. Hub Cat posted:I think Peter is really smart he just has kind of an ADHD brain, he is more of a head in the clouds type and its interesting to watch him mature and get more focused on being a good cop as the series goes on. This is pretty much exactly as I see him. And why I like the series. . . the character grows, and it's not just power bumps.
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Oct 25, 2019 23:53
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Necrotizer F posted:Chicago was further away but probably also a place he was fairly familiar with. Not the point, I know, but lol
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Oct 25, 2019 23:58
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There’s no parking lot at Wrigley!!!!!!!!
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Oct 26, 2019 00:03
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To be 100% clear I want to come back here and be all "I really loved Dresden 2". From what I've been told I probably won't, but I want to try to stay positive and be able to tell you guys what I think about these werewolves because I love werewolves, I'm a sucker for seeing them portrayed in almost anything. I'll probably rant about the problematic stuff because like, I can't let it go easily, it bugs me a lot. I wish the market were such that Butcher could rewrite these early Dresden books so they're less... rough, for lack of a better term, but c'est la vie. I'm holding out hope that I'll hit Dresden 4-5 and love it as much as you folks do, and keep reading. Anyways, as I continue my tour of UF, I cannot stop thinking about how brutal and fitting it is that Rosemary and Rue opens with Toby's life being destroyed through a time-slip as a fish. It's so perfect evil and fitting with what the fae do. I'm probably going to focus on it next after I finish Lupi 1, as I need to see what happens next. ("aren't you reading werewolf goes to dc" yes yes I am, I'm trying to stick to a focus on one book, with jumps into another, but given my ADHD tendencies I will probably read both concurrently. anyways.)
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Oct 26, 2019 00:03
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StrixNebulosa posted:To be 100% clear I want to come back here and be all "I really loved Dresden 2". From what I've been told I probably won't, but I want to try to stay positive and be able to tell you guys what I think about these werewolves because I love werewolves, I'm a sucker for seeing them portrayed in almost anything. I'll probably rant about the problematic stuff because like, I can't let it go easily, it bugs me a lot. I wish the market were such that Butcher could rewrite these early Dresden books so they're less... rough, for lack of a better term, but c'est la vie. I'm holding out hope that I'll hit Dresden 4-5 and love it as much as you folks do, and keep reading. For all the criticism of books one and two of Dresden, they're still fun. You can see the clumsy writing, you can see where he hasn't got his craft yet, but they're action movies on the Sci-Fi channel good.
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Oct 26, 2019 00:14
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torgeaux posted:For all the criticism of books one and two of Dresden, they're still fun. You can see the clumsy writing, you can see where he hasn't got his craft yet, but they're action movies on the Sci-Fi channel good. Boiler-plate noir detective plot may be derivative as hell, but cliches are cliches for a reason, yeah! And there's some flash to the writing so without the flaws it'd be plain fun. With the flaws it's still fun but I have to hold my nose. 
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Oct 26, 2019 01:44
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I've been mad at the Dresden Files ever since Butcher literally put "Dresden dances with Mab to an orchestral remix of Shinedown's '45'" into a book. That's just stupid.
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Oct 26, 2019 02:30
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StrixNebulosa posted:As a dabbling writer myself, it scares the poo poo out of me to try to write non-white non-Americans because while I can fake it, oh god you can tell it won't be authentic. I am the whitest goon from the whitest part of New York state. And I don't want to offend or appropriate anyone! I guess my thought on "write what you know" is go out and know more. If you want to know more about how non-white non-American think, talk and act, go interact with. It doesn't have to even be in person. The internet is right the gently caress there. It won't be perfect but it's better than doing nothing. ookiimarukochan posted:Peter Grant is pretty obviously an idiot, reading between the lines, he's just the first Official Magician to be young enough that he approaches magic with a modern mindset - look to Abigail if you want to see what a young person with drive and intelligence learning magic is like. While I'm looking to the next RoL novel, the work I'm truly eager to see is Ben Aaronovitch's novella, "What Abigail Did That Summer." This will come off very much like the so-called "I read Playboy for the articles" but while it's cool, I don't read RoL for the magic. I read it for the police work. Anyone can cook up a magic system, but the police aspects and psychology are amazing in RoL. Plus, yes, the writing. I just grabbed my copy of Whispers Under Ground to reread the bit in which Peter tries to get background information on a murder victim from that victim's father - a powerful U. S. Senator. Peter asked if the Senator's son was a political embarrassment. The Senator, somewhat drunk and grieving, asks Peter which would cause him the most offense, being called a limey or a friend of the family. After a bit more back and forth, Peter finally says, "If you call me a friend of the family you sound like a racist American. And limey is a joke insult. You actually don't know enough about me to insult me properly."
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Oct 26, 2019 02:33
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torgeaux posted:It's not obvious at all. In the first book he explicitly says that he appears as if he's a smart person (has the look and some of the interests) but isn't actually smart enough to be a smart person, and doesn't have the focus to make a good policeman, these two factors are the whole issue that he's about to be put in a safe trivial position which lets the Met look like they're ethnically diverse without the potential for a gently caress-up. And of course, at the end of the first book he causes a massive gently caress-up. Plus a load of the statements he gives in a very authoritative tone are incorrect, and not because Ben Aaronovich hosed up the research.
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Oct 26, 2019 18:05
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Okay, because it was funny to horrify my friends, I started reading Anita Blake despite so many warnings, and I.. did not expect it to start with a vampire strip club. Pros about it so far in the first thirty pages: it feels very 90s, to the point that it feels almost exactly like Vampire: the Masquerade, so...kudos? for capturing that so perfectly. Vampires are both hot and horrifying. Cons: Anita's a gigantic moron to let herself be guilted into going to a vampire strip club. Like wow, you could have just said "hell no" and walked out, but instead you even let them take your cross. Good job!
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Oct 26, 2019 18:31
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I've been mad at the Dresden Files ever since Butcher literally put "Dresden dances with Mab to an orchestral remix of Shinedown's '45'" into a book. I dunno, it sounds pretty good to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k9_MU1lMoc
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Oct 26, 2019 18:59
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