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Weatherman posted:Hi thraed. I am going for a job where as part of the loving application process they have an obligatory question regarding your "expected salary". It's at the bottom of this reply because I have plat but no patience for imgur. BabyFur Denny posted:The best move would be not to play, unless you really really want that job at that company. Or circumvent the application form by networking and dropping off your application at one of the people you know and are working there already. Inept posted:I'd do this one, unless you really want the job, in which case I'd still pick (at least) the one that aligns to your current salary. Just because an article said some companies there are cheap doesn't mean you should lower your expectations. fourwood posted:My current job had almost that exact same thing on the application. I picked 120-140k, but never gave a number after that (the HR guy definitely referenced it, though, so my selection did not go unnoticed). Ended up with an 8% base bump over old job plus a good signing bonus and I’m liking the job okay so far! So uh... yeah, it’s lame but I dunno, I feel like I’m pleased with how it worked out for me. It sounds like you think it’d be a good arrangement, so I say pick one that’s putting a strong foot forward from a negotiating standpoint and hope they call you back. Eric the Mauve posted:I assume since you're even asking the question, rather than laughing and closing the tab, that you're fairly desperate to find a job in that country? Ultimate Mango posted:Whenever I saw that question I put $0 or picked the lowest option and put an appropriate comment someplace. In the state of CA, this question might not even be allowed. Welp you guys sure did cover all the possible options, thanks for pointing me in a particular direction  (/s)I have an update! I ended up choosing the range that I thought was both realistic and that I would be at least satisfied with. Eric the Mauve was spot on about the situation -- I want to get a job in that country, preferably before leaving instead of after. I got through the interviews and just got an offer for $20k over the range I picked  Six weeks till I start!
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Oct 29, 2019 01:19
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Weatherman posted:Welp you guys sure did cover all the possible options, thanks for pointing me in a particular direction Congrats and good luck with the move and the job itself!
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Oct 29, 2019 01:40
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Finished my 3 month probation now. I’m realizing I’m being underpaid based on how much I do and some research. I’ve only just passed probation and I have no leverage though? I can’t think of a way to ask for more without threatening to quit which is risky because I am still disposable for a while. All I can think of is once my bosses consider me indispensable then I can push but not yet. Anything I can do at this point? wish I has looked at this thread at the time ah well.
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Oct 29, 2019 10:55
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You will never be indispensable, get a new offer from a different employer.
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Oct 29, 2019 13:28
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DropsySufferer posted:Finished my 3 month probation now. I’m realizing I’m being underpaid based on how much I do and some research. What SEKCobra said. If this is literally your first job and you have 3 months experience you probably aren't getting a better offer right now because everyone else will also be trying to take advantage of you. And there's nearly no way that finding out if anyone WILL pay you will hurt apart from the time it takes to do the interviews and get the offers. And read this thread.
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Oct 29, 2019 13:38
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Polish your resume and rehearse a nice juicy lie to answer "Why are you leaving your company so soon" and start applying for jobs. I think it's entirely possible to get a better job offer -- assuming you truly are underpaid, which may not be the case, just so you know. Just don't go blabbering to your interviewers about how you're underpaid because that's one way to guarantee continued underpayment at a marginally reduced level.
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Oct 29, 2019 17:09
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SEKCobra posted:You will never be indispensable, get a new offer from a different employer. Also, indispensable is a curse. Just wait until you're truly indispensable to your department and then see how bad your promotions and internal transfer options become. 
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Oct 29, 2019 20:33
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Not really a negotiation, just yet, but more of a question of how do I best present my case to my new boss. Went through a company acquisition earlier this year. Old company pay was good, but their benefit package made overall compensation great. Skipping the details, when it's all said and done after moving to the new company's benefit plan and time off schedule, I'm losing 11,000 dollars in "total compensation". The majority of that is company contributions to the health care plan we had, and I'm losing 7 vacation days. Granted old company was extremely generous, I still considered that part of my overall compensation. In addition to that, I changed job responsibilities, during the acquisition/merger and was placed in what I feel is a higher level position. I'm an IT Systems Admin, with almost 15 years experience, and the old company had me at a mid level (grade 3 out of 5) admin in their operations department. I've moved to an architecture role now, and stepped away from day to day operations. I'm generally a pretty passive guy, but between losing out on the vacation days and medical that made total comp great, plus my perceived increase in job responsibilities made me take a hard look at my total compensation, and I'm definitely under paid right now. I'm not really interested in switching jobs, so I'm aware I have no real leverage. I could have a new one in a couple weeks if I really wanted, but I'm honestly happy where I'm at now for various reasons. I do want to sit down with my boss during our next 1:1 though and put together an argument for additional compensation though, as of right now I'm 20% below "market value" for what they're asking me to do. Pay was fair for my old position, but not for the new one. What's the best way to present my argument? I was planning on going over the reduction in total comp, but I don't feel they're going to be very sympathetic to it. The medical coverage really was an outlier, and I still will have 21 vacation days instead of 28. Not exactly hurting. The new medical coverage is a little under market, but not out of line with some current offerings out there if I was going to find a new job. Vacation, and Medical aren't going to change, so I'm definitely looking for more cash to compensate. Just looking for a good way to present things to my new boss. He seems pretty decent, and I'm willing to give them 6 months or so to get something figured out (HR can move slow), but I just can't allow myself to not try to do something about this.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:21
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Maybe if you pick just the right day and time to catch him in the right mood and ask really really nicely, he'll be persuaded by your logic and your earnestness and just how goshdarn great your work is and will give you a bunch of money. It's worth a shot. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take!
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Oct 29, 2019 21:25
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you just got absolutely turbofucked and you are just gonna be like uhh well i had it good before? look for a new job mate
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Oct 29, 2019 21:36
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You're right, it isn't a negotiation. You're just begging.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:44
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Dispense with the "I'm happy where I am now" thinking, because you clearly are not; you are being underpaid. They are counting on you taking this on the chin. Asking nicely will not get you what you want. Get other offers. Be willing to consider them. Asking nicely and hoping they'll deign to give you what you want in exchange for you "feeling happy" is no way to conduct a negotiation, it's how you conduct a surrender.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:45
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you just got absolutely turbofucked and you are just gonna be like uhh well i had it good before? Turbofucked? Not quite. I feel like it's more of a swift kick in the balls though. Not a Children posted:Dispense with the "I'm happy where I am now" thinking, because you clearly are not; you are being underpaid. They are counting on you taking this on the chin. Asking nicely will not get you what you want. Get other offers. Be willing to consider them. Asking nicely and hoping they'll deign to give you what you want in exchange for you "feeling happy" is no way to conduct a negotiation, it's how you conduct a surrender. I really have no interest in finding another job right now, and I was arguably underpaid before on a cash basis, but I felt the non cash comp more than made up for it. I also full time WFH which at this point in my life is worth a lot to me. My wife and I do just fine, and honestly there's more to life than cash at this point in my life. The extra cash wouldn't really affect my quality of life at this point, it's more of a principle issue. I've had success asking for what I wanted before. Last 2 promotions have been because I sat down with my boss 1:1, made my case, and they went to bat for me with upper management and HR, and I got what I wanted. It's been my experience so far that employers are interested in keeping good folks around and fairly compensated, but it can take time for things to get approved and work their way through the system. I know this thread is all about "gently caress your employer, you're getting hosed, find a new job, make fat cash". If I wanted a new job, I'd be working somewhere else in the next 2 weeks for a lot more cash compensation than I get now. The market is good, and I know my worth. I also know I don't feel like commuting 60 to 90 minutes a day, or not being here when my kids get off the school bus, or missing soccer practice with the kids and so on and so forth. I'm not going to just accept this laying down either. I've got a poo poo ton of PTO to burn, and pretty much won't work the rest of the year from Thanksgiving to Jan 2nd or so. If things aren't happening by the time I get back from my 2 week vacation in Feb, I'll earnestly start looking, at that point it's the principle of the thing and not allowing myself to continue to be "turbofucked". If someone wants to offer any advice on how to better make my case, great. If not that's fine, I'll let ya'll know how it goes. There's a possibility my new boss will tell me he won't do anything for me, at that point they can RIF me and give me the 1 year of severance they'd owe me and I'd be fine with that too.
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Oct 29, 2019 22:09
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If you have a backup plan to start looking for jobs in the future, there is zero downside to starting that process now besides a few hours wasted on interviews. You might as well set those machinations into motion before you're at the point where your continued employment there is overshadowed by total resentment. Any discussion you have will be some variation of "I made more money before, please pay me that amount or more." You can spruce that up by dropping figures on $ values of contracts you worked on and how much money you saved the company doing XYZ, but how that ends basically depends on how much your boss is willing to go to bat for you and how receptive management is to his/your appeals. You have very little control over that besides how your personal charisma plays with those actors. They already have your labor for a price they worked out with people who are not you over the course of the acquisition. Exercise the levers of power you DO have control over.
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Oct 29, 2019 22:25
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skipdogg posted:I could have a new one in a couple weeks if I really wanted, but I'm honestly happy where I'm at now for various reasons. There is no ethical happiness under capitalism. Embrace the greed.
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Oct 29, 2019 22:41
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skipdogg posted:Turbofucked? Not quite. I feel like it's more of a swift kick in the balls though.
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Oct 29, 2019 22:51
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Sundae posted:There is no ethical happiness under capitalism. Embrace the greed. Happiness is fair pay for fair work. Fair pay which you secured by knowing the numbers, negotiating and being willing to act in the face of an unfair situation. At least until the billionaires bring back feudalism.
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Oct 30, 2019 01:56
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Funnily enough, the upper levels of a megacorporate hierarchy resemble feudalism in a more than passing way.
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Oct 30, 2019 02:42
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Billionaires access to labor is a return to the power structures of the past for sure.
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Oct 30, 2019 03:30
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Xguard86 posted:Happiness is fair pay for fair work. Fair pay which you secured by knowing the numbers, negotiating and being willing to act in the face of an unfair situation. Every moment of happiness you consume is ten moments of happiness denied to a malnourished seabird.
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Oct 30, 2019 03:44
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skipdogg posted:It's been my experience so far that employers are interested in keeping good folks around and fairly compensated, but it can take time for things to get approved and work their way through the system. If that was the case here, your new ownership would have retained benefits for their employees. Feel free to talk to your manager, but don't be surprised if they no longer have the power to do anything meaningful to help. There are other remote jobs. It really doesn't hurt to interview. If you don't like what you hear, you can always stay at your current place.
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Oct 30, 2019 12:50
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skipdogg posted:I really have no interest in finding another job right now skipdogg posted:I'm not going to just accept this laying down either. does not compute
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Oct 30, 2019 13:24
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Sundae posted:Every moment of happiness you consume is ten moments of happiness denied to a malnourished seabird. My God you are correct. Suicide is the only moral choice.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:37
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Xguard86 posted:My God you are correct. Suicide is the only moral choice. Exactly! I'll go first. *shows himself out of the thread*
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Oct 30, 2019 16:30
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:What SEKCobra said. If this is literally your first job and you have 3 months experience you probably aren't getting a better offer right now because everyone else will also be trying to take advantage of you. Yeah I should have read this thread 3 months ago got me there and I look at me now. Example poster of what happens when you don't negotiate. I have 2 years experience. I've done an interview already. Basically I could be in the 60K range vs the lower 50s I am now. I hate having to make a job move but it's easier to get hired when you are working. My excuse for leaving after three months is they are putting me on graveyard shift and I can't do that schedule. Does should like a good enough reason to a hiring manager for leaving a company after 3 months? That was what I said last interview and no signs of negative feedback for that.
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Oct 30, 2019 22:43
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Leaving a company after 3 months is a red flag own its own. If I were interviewing (phone screening, actually) you I'd be drilling deep on that one: what field is this, what are the usual expectations for scheduling, why were you assigned to graveyard shift as opposed to someone else, etc. What I want to figure out is (1) are you refusing to do something that the low guy on the totem pole should expect to have to do in your industry (i.e., what *I* very well might soon expect you to do) and if not, (2) were you assigned there because your ex-employer didn't like what they saw the first couple months and wanted to encourage you to leave. If your answers are good then I would no longer worry about it. Some companies and some managers are lovely. tbh sometimes a 3 month employment period in the recent past will get your resume auto-canned by a lot of companies if they have a lot of applicants to sort through, but if you get to an interview then it's probably not a problem as long as your explanation for it is good.
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Oct 30, 2019 23:04
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Update to this: I accepted the job but convinced them to push back my start date. Got another offer in the meantime that doesn't involve moving and is not on a yearly contract with no benefits, which I am taking instead. I want to thank you guys for the advice and gentle mockery.
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Nov 2, 2019 01:13
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It's been a week since I had a phone interview with the internal recruiter for the company I was hoping to see about working for. Haven't heard anything. I did send the perfunctory after-interview email. I got the impression that things were going well, and that there was a next step involving another phone interview with a few technical folks, so this weirds me out. But on the other hand, while I'm underpaid in my current position, I'm comfortable, so I'm happy to wait them out and also look out for other relevant offers.
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Nov 2, 2019 02:59
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skipdogg posted:Turbofucked? Not quite. I feel like it's more of a swift kick in the balls though. Well I'm certainly looking forward to the updates on this one.
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Nov 10, 2019 01:17
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Succes story: my wife got told that her employer decided to move the office which meant a 300% increase in commute time. She decided to start looking for a new job immediately. A company she interviewed at before but didn’t agree to her salary demands a few months ago reached out again and she anchored above the number that was declined previously and saying she wasn’t interviewing again unless they were able to make it work. After 2 rounds of interviews they decided to offer her a 20% higher salary and overall better benefits (company car for private use, more training budget and ability to visit multiple conferences). She’d lose 2 vacation days though. She was ready to accept but I told her to at least ask for extra vacation days and/or compensation. They were (or acted) really reluctant and said they had to get CEO approval, but added 5% more salary to make up for the vacation days. Only thing she had to do was ask. Where she was paid market value previously, she now made a pretty nice leap in both salary as well as benefits.
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Nov 13, 2019 18:17
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Never don't negotiate.
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Nov 13, 2019 18:54
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Vox Nihili posted:Well I'm certainly looking forward to the updates on this one. Boss called me today out of the blue. New company is adjusting my salary to be more in line with other people in their IT department. 12% raise effective immediately. New bonus target 10% instead of 5%. Still eligible for standard 3-4% merit increase next March/April. (Old company you didn't get a merit increase if your pay was adjusted in the last 6 months). The kicker, I hadn't even had the 1:1 conversation about things yet. We've both been traveling and haven't been able to find time for a 1:1. Told him I was going to try to schedule some time before the end of the year to have a talk with him about this, but this was a pleasant surprise. He was 100% open to talking about job grade/title adjustment and further comp adjustment. I was quite surprised they did this on their own.
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Nov 13, 2019 20:31
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LochNessMonster posted:Succes story: my wife got told that her employer decided to move the office which meant a 300% increase in commute time. dope poo poo
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Nov 13, 2019 22:02
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LochNessMonster posted:Succes story: my wife got told that her employer decided to move the office which meant a 300% increase in commute time.
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Nov 14, 2019 02:59
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Dik Hz posted:Homeboy, I don't know anything about you, but I think you outkicked your coverage. You have a real winner there. I'm fully aware of that. We had a lot of discussion (based on this threads knowledge) on how to approach the company this time and she played the game perfectly. She didn't have a great BATNA now since she wanted to leave her old company, but the new company didn't know that. They only knew that she was willing to walk away if the offer wasn't good enough as she did exactly that the last time they were negotiating.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:27
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Hi thread, this is a cross-post from the Corporate thread regarding a job application that has progressed to the negotiation stage. I work for Company A as a pharmaceutical scientist. I make $75k and have been at the company for 5 years. I have a MS in Biology and skill sets X, Y and Z. My (ex-) boss quit 6 months ago to join Company B across the country (from CA to MA). He posted a position one level senior to mine, asking for skill sets X, Y and Z along with a BS (+5 yrs experience), MS (+2 yrs), or PhD (+1 yr). I had grown to be pretty good friends with ex-boss (he is a good dude) and shot him a text that I was interested and he fast-tracked me into an interview. He also told me in confidence that the midpoint for the position is $110k and that the work/life balance has been much better for him than Company A. Salary/CoL balance and work/life balance are my two main gripes with working at Company A and led me to agree to the interview. I flew out for the interview, met with the team, answered your standard interview questions, got grilled on skills X Y and Z, gave a seminar and flew back home feeling like it went well. Ex-boss told me I did a good job and that the recruiter would be in touch, but also to be aware that there are two other candidates in consideration. A couple of days later, the recruiter reached out asking for references. I entered my references into their system and wrote back confirming that I had done so. Recruiter wrote back asking "if you have any salary requirements I am happy to speak on this at this time." I initially planned to just ask for 110k given my inside knowledge, but was convinced out of it by the Corporate thread citing the golden rule of Never Say A Number Jesus loving Christ . I expect that the recruiter will write back insisting that I give a figure. I am considering my next move. I feel that I have a strong BATNA in that: 1) I make enough money to live decently in CA and will be okay if this offer doesn't work out. 2) I enjoy the nerdy science poo poo I do at my job and have cool coworkers. 3) Management seems to recognize me and have risen me up the ranks (4 promotions from $28/hr -> $31/hr -> $68k -> $75k), although this was largely due to ex-boss who is gone now. 4) The weather is nice. With that in mind, I think the right move is to be obstinate, continue to refuse to give a number and be prepared to walk away if the recruiter doesn't budge. I am especially inclined toward this move because ex-boss told me he gave a number first and regrets it (they accepted immediately so be probably could have asked for more). If the recruiter flinches and gives me a number, I plan to counter with a $120k citing the education, skill sets and experience that more than match what the position. Hopefully they then settle for $110k. I am hoping someone can point out if there are any glaring flaws in my approach. I have always been a chump and given a number at negotiation time so I'm pretty nervous that I haven't done so yet.
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Nov 15, 2019 08:32
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If he pushes for a number you can first ask him what their salary range is for the position. When you feel like you absolutely have to name a number, pick the highest number you're comfortable asking and add 10-20% on top of it. In your case you could tell him you'd immediately accept for 150k. If he balks at that tell him to make you an offer.
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Nov 15, 2019 09:07
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Muscular Typist posted:Hi thread, this is a cross-post from the Corporate thread regarding a job application that has progressed to the negotiation stage. I won't touch on the negotiation stuff but I will say that you're likely going to be able to make a huge jump moving to any other company at this point. I would be surprised if you weren't able to get a 25k raise in your current area to be honest, but I don't know CA that well. Just assuming San Diego / SF / whatever pharma location you're in operates similarly to MA. Start applying to more jobs locally if salary is important to you as well. Management is giving you raises but it seems to me you are underpaid a bit given your experience. I like Cambridge but the weather can suck at times if you don't do winter sports or something. Also if you do get moved, try to negotiate for them to cover moving expenses.
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Nov 15, 2019 13:59
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The information you're missing is what the job pays other people in similar situations. Without that information it is hard to gauge your next action. Mr Newsman indicates that your underpaid now, but it isn't clear if $110k is a 'bump' or a 'bump to standard'. Dig through career websites or H1B databases to try and get an independent idea. You're in a slightly different position than what is standard for this thread because your old manager (presumably) knows what you're currently paid. They may be the best manager in the world, but this is your livelihood. You need to find out, as best you can, what you should be paid. Do not just take the word of the people who currently pay you and the people who want to pay you.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:37
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I want to thank this thread's insistence on the "Don't say a number, JFC". I'm starting to interview for positions in the Bay Area for Business Intelligence Engineering / Architecture and it's pretty impressive how not giving a number totally changes the tone of the recruiting party. I had a conversation today with a recruiter where I basically had to walk down that list of escalating replies about a salary range, before they accepted that I would rather walk away from the opportunity before giving a range. It's empowering and exhilarating but also scary as hell. Will definitely keep rereading the materials in the OP during interviews and negotiations.
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Nov 15, 2019 22:13
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