|
silence_kit posted:Not true. Wind and solar electricity are both cheap. That's a pretty good reason to use them. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the cost of wind and solar electricity is still dropping. Natural gas is no-go. Period. And you seriously dont understand this: There is no point in ramping a nuclear plant up and down, why do you insist on this? Its nonsensical.
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 03:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 14:18 |
|
|
CommieGIR posted:And you seriously dont understand this: There is no point in ramping a nuclear plant up and down, why do you insist on this? Its nonsensical. Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 03:56
|
|
|
Natural gas is perfectly fine in one of its current uses - which is largely making a bunch of what were once coal plants somewhat less dangerous to all global life before they get decommissioned entirely. It's not good as something to expand outside of the contexts of coal plant conversions.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 03:57
|
|
|
Build more nuke
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 04:07
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. The solution may be embracing a world of cheap overcapacity. Just have something for that excess to do - crack water for hydrogen, desalinate seawater, charge batteries, whatever. Total capacity equals maximum grid demand + a safety margin. As consumer load changes, the amount of capacity committed to those other uses declines, but all sources (wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear) are always just cranking out the maximum. Rather than building enough capacity to meet demand, build so much capacity we have to start finding useful things to do with all the plentiful, cheap electricity we've got lying around.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 04:08
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. You've basically got the cart before the horse here. I get what you're trying to say, but you look at it from a perspective of 'we produce this much power, variable sources can do the rest' rather than 'we need this much power to cover it when variable sources drop' In the cases you're discussing, if we rule out nuclear, then I'd first look at hydro, but then your choices become very limited. I don't believe tidal has ever worked on a large scale - anyone? Which pretty much leaves you with gas and coal. Nuclear would be my preference, not just because of the fully sick failure states, but because as I've mentioned in the past, it's as close to a free energy source as you're ever going to get.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 04:26
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. Why are you repeatedly asking for a weird intermittent power generation source to supply the grid when the other intermittent sources fail? Do you not get what people mean when they say nuclear is a "baseload power source" or what?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 04:51
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. You don't need to ramp nuclear power up or down, you can just do something else with that power during periods of low demand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 05:01
|
|
|
Hell, you can literally just waste it if you need to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 05:17
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. Even in your hypothetical world it makes more sense to use a base load than it does to fire up a nation's worth of peaker plants when the winds die down. That being said, this thread appears to be a bit outdated when it comes to nuclear plant load-following - modern designs are quite capable of ramping power quickly and efficiently (indeed some are actually faster than natural gas plants). As France and Germany have transitioned to more intermittent sources of power, their nuclear plant operators have learned to become more flexible. In your hypothetical United States, the same would be the case. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/how-market-forces-are-pushing-utilities-to-operate-nuclear-plants-more-flex/427496/
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 09:04
|
|
|
The candu option really seems dead simple, reactor at 100%, dump heat you don't need directly into the condenser. Good article.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 11:40
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:That's a lot of power. Even your smallest genset will be expensive to replace with something renewable/battery powered. What's the run time for whatever it is you are powering? It is basically the power generation for a mid sized isolated mine. The large sets (6 x 4 MVA MAKs) supply the plant (97% runtime) and core infrastructure (admin, workshops, clinic, workers camp, water treatment, etc). The mobile gen sets are for all the satellite stuff - local gendarme barracks, isolated offices, intersection/flagman lighting, pumps, local village construction team, etc. Most run around the clock (variable load depending on work / air cons) except the 650 kva sets which are standby for the camp and operate <1% of the year. In reality the 650's are going to be left alone but driving a vehicle out to every other mobile generator once or twice a day is what I am trying to reduce. I had a look online following the prompt from this thread at hybrid power and I need to educate myself some more but it doesn't look to be a no-brainer (all the generators already exist and will not be due for replacement soon). We are looking at building/opening another mine site in the next couple of years so maybe build the knowledge to first fill the requirement with hybrids from the start would be the goal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 12:51
|
|
|
Electric Wrigglies posted:It is basically the power generation for a mid sized isolated mine. The large sets (6 x 4 MVA MAKs) supply the plant (97% runtime) and core infrastructure (admin, workshops, clinic, workers camp, water treatment, etc). The mobile gen sets are for all the satellite stuff - local gendarme barracks, isolated offices, intersection/flagman lighting, pumps, local village construction team, etc. Most run around the clock (variable load depending on work / air cons) except the 650 kva sets which are standby for the camp and operate <1% of the year. Possibly a hybrid system to store some power via battery could save some fuel, but I don't think you'll be going to a fully renewable system with those power requirements for some time. Is this mine site so isolated that building a power line from wherever is closest, is completely out of the question?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:Possibly a hybrid system to store some power via battery could save some fuel, but I don't think you'll be going to a fully renewable system with those power requirements for some time. Almost always yes
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
This was a good video on pumped hydro posted today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66YRCjkxIcg Also, there is a very good Youtube channel called The US Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board they make post-mortems on industrial accidents. They commonly have energy sector related videos that discuss details , safety, and hazards involved in the energy sector. They posted this yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDcsjHyxr8 Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 31, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2019 20:53
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:They posted this yesterday: This is why stop work authority is given to every person on a drill site at reputable companies, whether they're an employee or not. You also need a culture of safety though to actually make people use it. *edit* that pumped hydro video is pretty good MomJeans420 fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Nov 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 01:08
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:This is why stop work authority is given to every person on a drill site at reputable companies, whether they're an employee or not. You also need a culture of safety though to actually make people use it. *stops work due to unsafe practices* *work continues with the same unsafe circumstances the next shift* 1 week later: I'm sorry MomJeans Fourtwenty, your services are no longer required at Jnco.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 15:57
|
|
|
Marxalot posted:*stops work due to unsafe practices* Oil companies do seem to stop work a lot and pay absolutely ridiculous expedite fees to get stuff out there to fix it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 16:30
|
|
|
ime "this is beyond unsafe and I'm not doing it" gets you replaced with someone who will It sounds like you're talking about equipment that already failed
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 16:54
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1190094817084051456 I can drop bricks on a gas turbine, check mate, enviroweenies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 17:14
|
|
|
now he can post the video where the solar panels just burst into flames on their own
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 17:24
|
|
|
Marxalot posted:*stops work due to unsafe practices* Hence why I said reputable companies, go work for a major and you'll wish you had less safety (no really, you will) Apparatchik Magnet posted:https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1190094817084051456 If you pause it right at 9 seconds it looks like it has already been cut?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
silence_kit posted:Ok, maybe you'll get it on my sixth post on the subject: in a hypothetical future world where the US's electricity is largely coming from wind & solar, absent other ideas mentioned in my earlier posts, a complementary technology is needed to be able to supply electricity when the intermittent sources cannot. If nuclear electricity cannot be this complementary technology, then it seems like other technologies, like electricity generated from natural gas, would have an important role to play. The energy generation megathread attracts spergs like moths to a flame, and they will never answer your question because there isn't an answer that they actually like.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:The energy generation megathread attracts spergs like moths to a flame, and they will never answer your question because there isn't an answer that they actually like. Kaal posted:Even in your hypothetical world it makes more sense to use a base load than it does to fire up a nation's worth of peaker plants when the winds die down. That being said, this thread appears to be a bit outdated when it comes to nuclear plant load-following - modern designs are quite capable of ramping power quickly and efficiently (indeed some are actually faster than natural gas plants). As France and Germany have transitioned to more intermittent sources of power, their nuclear plant operators have learned to become more flexible. In your hypothetical United States, the same would be the case.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:The energy generation megathread attracts spergs like moths to a flame, and they will never answer your question because there isn't an answer that they actually like. It also attracts people who assume willingness to pay for massive changes to the energy infrastructure on a very short timeline at a ruinous cost and think that's a reasonable answer; see above.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:Hence why I said reputable companies, go work for a major and you'll wish you had less safety (no really, you will) It's a Jack O'Lantern, of course it's cut.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:40
|
|
|
fishmech posted:Natural gas is perfectly fine in one of its current uses - which is largely making a bunch of what were once coal plants somewhat less dangerous to all global life before they get decommissioned entirely. It's not good as something to expand outside of the contexts of coal plant conversions. Except for the fact that fracked natural gas in the USA has sufficient leaks to negate the advantages of natural gas-fired plants. For the first 20 years., CH4 is 70x more effective for greenhouse effects than CO2.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:47
|
|
|
What we need is cheap energy store tech. You don't need to worry about kg/kwh-capacity so you're not limited to LiOn Batteries, although reusing cycled vehicle batteries when they are no longer optimal for that purpose makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 18:50
|
|
|
Yeah, there's cheap, and there's cheap enough to matter on the scale we are worrying about, and I'm not sure that's available.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
Joey Steel posted:Yeah, there's cheap, and there's cheap enough to matter on the scale we are worrying about, and I'm not sure that's available. Ok, so let's take pumped storage as an example: Pumped hydro boasts a very low price per megawatt hour, ranging from about $200/MWh to $260/MWh. ... According to the Lazard's Levelized Cost Of Storage report, capital costs for pumped storage projects around the world range from about $1.5 million to $2.5 million per MW installed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 20:07
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:Ok, so let's take pumped storage as an example: I'm not sure what this is supposed to be explaining unless there's a typo between MW and MWh? A big reservoir might hold a million MWh worth of water at some elevation, but the size of the channels and pumps/generators still limit the MW throughput. A big mechanical turbine can be expensive completely aside from the engineering to build a reservoir.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 20:25
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:I'm not sure what this is supposed to be explaining unless there's a typo between MW and MWh? A big reservoir might hold a million MWh worth of water at some elevation, but the size of the channels and pumps/generators still limit the MW throughput. A big mechanical turbine can be expensive completely aside from the engineering to build a reservoir. One is the cost of electricity vended. The other is the CAPEX of the plant itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 20:30
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:Ok, so let's take pumped storage as an example: Trump is building a wall around Colorado so that we have enough land area for pumped storage to matter.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 20:35
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:Hence why I said reputable companies, go work for a major and you'll wish you had less safety (no really, you will) Largely correct, but it depends on the company. I'd name names but lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 20:41
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:The energy generation megathread attracts spergs like moths to a flame, and they will never answer your question because there isn't an answer that they actually like. The presuppositions of the question don't make sense, it's like asking "if physics didn't matter could we create infinite energy?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
MomJeans420 posted:The energy generation megathread attracts spergs like moths to a flame, and they will never answer your question because there isn't an answer that they actually like. Versus the guy ignoring the fossil fuel industries long and sordid history of outright fabrication and lying. TEL, lying about AGW, lobbying against emissions standards, and here you are telling us to trust them again. Are you loving high?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 22:40
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Versus the guy ignoring the fossil fuel industries long and sordid history of outright fabrication and lying. It doesn't matter that they lie, what needs to happen isn't going to happen. This is all fantasy wanking about necessary solutions that cannot and will not be implemented.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 22:41
|
|
|
Apparatchik Magnet posted:It doesn't matter that they lie, what needs to happen isn't going to happen. This is all fantasy wanking about necessary solutions that cannot and will not be implemented. Ah cool, another stage of Global Warming Denialism: "Yes its happening, yes its our fault, yes we could've done something, but its too late we're hosed." I wasn't aware blatant surrender was the purpose of this thread rather than proposing actual solutions. Of which Natural Gas will never be one of the solutions that will tackle climate change. And what you are basically saying is nothing matters, which is a pretty poor point of discussion. I love the nihilism of your post: "Yeah, well, they lied over and over, but whatever we gotta live with it" CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Nov 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:Ok, so let's take pumped storage as an example: Mind linking to the report you are reading? I'd like to have some real world stuff bedtime reading.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 14:18 |
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Ah cool, another stage of Global Warming Denialism: Do you scream at your doctor about “Eternal Life Denialism” and rant about your plan to replace all your organs every 30 months.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2019 00:33
|
|