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Lucas Archer posted:Iirc that happens near the end of the book. Both women in the group are gang raped by a bunch of slavers. I think the one who goes catatonic gets better later on - I vaguely remember her showing up one of the later books. It also had a guy with cerebral palsy get transformed into a dwarf warrior. You’d think the correlation between rape fetish and fantasy author wouldn’t actually, literally be 1.0 but here we are.
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Oct 30, 2019 21:24
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male fantasy author: hmm, this woman in my story needs to experience adversity. better make it rape.
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Oct 30, 2019 22:23
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What was that one dumb wizard webcomic where a guy had to rape a woman to save her life?
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Oct 31, 2019 00:44
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Dominic Deegan.
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Oct 31, 2019 03:14
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my bony fealty posted:male fantasy author: hmm, this woman in my story needs to experience adversity. better make it rape. "Amusingly," this is the second thread where I've posted about these novels, and both times I was immediately corrected about the timing of the incident but not the actual content, as if the clarification that it happens later in the novel than I remember possibly matters
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Oct 31, 2019 03:48
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I wasn’t trying to minimize or downplay it, and you’re right - it doesn’t matter, it’s gross and weird and hosed up wherever it is in the book.
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Oct 31, 2019 13:26
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I assume the purpose was to drive home how Bad slavery is, as well as indulging in his kinks. I remember being seriously squicked out by it as well as the differential emotional impact on the two victims (and later a third, a girl they rescue from slavers) and how everyone interacted with them.
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Oct 31, 2019 14:11
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As if slavery by itself wasn’t bad and evil enough. Nope, gotta throw in some sexual assault. Ugh, the more I remember about the book, the worse it becomes.
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Oct 31, 2019 16:07
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I'm definitely against the current trends precluding novels from dealing with these issues unless they do so with prefect gravity and the attitude of a therapist but so many books like this are like your oncologist telling you you're terminal while wearing a clown costume. Then, of course, fans bring up the doctor from the Robin Williams film who did wear a big red nose failing to see that was a very special once off.
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Oct 31, 2019 16:14
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Lucas Archer posted:As if slavery by itself wasn’t bad and evil enough. Nope, gotta throw in some sexual assault. Ugh, the more I remember about the book, the worse it becomes. The Genres Ablaze: the more I remember about the book, the worse it becomes
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Oct 31, 2019 16:26
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So there is a clear correlation between sexual assault and slavery, and you can't really discuss slavery accurately without the fact that much of slavery's evil comes in the form of legalized rape. The problem is that it is so overused in genre literature that it is cliched. Rather than reacting in horror as the villain reveals themselves to an unfortunate heroine, the reader is going to simply roll their eyes and wonder why the authors are unable to come up with any kind of characterization other than making villains rapists. Yes, it's a trope as old as Shakespeare (Caliban, anyone?) but modern fantasy authors seem unable to realize that a lust for power and mastery is bad enough on its own without describing graphic forced penetration scenes probably written one-handedly. It is precisely because of the modern reckoning with sexual assault and the trauma it inflicts that authors reach for it as a way to show how evil their villains are. It is a convenient shorthand to avoid studying human nature or reading good fiction. Why bother portraying a utopian ideology that can justify any horror, or researching mental illness, or coming up with a foil to the hero when all you need to do is describe where the bad man put his penis?
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Nov 1, 2019 04:41
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:The problem is that it is so overused in genre literature that it is cliched.
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Nov 1, 2019 05:32
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Is it a cliche, or is it over used because it's easy? For whatever it does or doesn't say about the author's attitudes toward women, it ticks a lot of dramatic and titillating boxes, and it's more convenient for the author to have that as a driving force for a character because it's such a singular event that it forms an easy shorthand from which the character expands outward into the story. When this discussion comes up, I always think of this: A friend of mine associated with one of those guys who would spend every waking moment making up fantasy or sci fi stories and "world building" but would never actually write a word of prose. He would spend hours writing up descriptions and general outlines in chats to her but as far as I know never actually put pen to paper. And in his descriptions, out of every new "world" he created, every single storyline, without exception, featured a character who was raped at least once as her defining character trait. Second-tier traits were that character's relationship to the main character: sister, daughter, wife, etc. It was clear in all of his descriptions that the prima facie of these characters was "a woman in the main character's life being raped" long before it was ever a semblance of a person with a name. What that meant was that he never had to actually build a character. The rape proves a driving force for both the main character and the raped character as was necessitated by the plot's convenience. It requires no nuance. The pain is dramatic and clear, at least in theory. It's emotionally evocative and taboo, disgusting and titillating to the reader's taste, since it's clear there is an audience who conceives of sex in literature almost entirely in terms of violence. As a result of that intrusiveness, it doesn't require much thought on the part of the reader or the writer, as such things tend to impose details upon our minds whether we like it or not; for example, a book I was reading just last week made me put it down for a couple of hours to mentally prepare for a molestation that it had been hinting at. None of that is to say that a rape necessitates lazy writing. Like any trope, it's all about how it's used. But there's a certain kind of sexual writing that seems to occur preferentially in fantasy fiction, and probably to a lesser degree in sci fi. I don't know if perhaps it's just a biased sample or whether sci fi has its own unique sexual sphere of mind, I don't consume a lot of it.
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Nov 1, 2019 06:03
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Heath posted:probably to a lesser degree in sci fi. I don't know if perhaps it's just a biased sample or whether sci fi has its own unique sexual sphere of mind, I don't consume a lot of it.
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Nov 1, 2019 06:05
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Speaking of rape in fantasy novels, has anyone read the latest Philip Pullman book in the new His Dark Materials trilogy?
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Nov 1, 2019 06:22
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Ha ha ha hoo boy. All I know is that the one suited alien in Mass Effect is willing to expose herself to deadly space germs and take off her suit to gently caress you and that's my basis for sci fi sexual relationships
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Nov 1, 2019 06:24
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:So there is a clear correlation between sexual assault and slavery, and you can't really discuss slavery accurately without the fact that much of slavery's evil comes in the form of legalized rape. I wonder if this is 100% accurate, slavery has existed throughout most of human history, has the sexual assault aspect always been so prevalent? We tend to immediately associate it with what went on in the Antebellum South, but, while I'm not defending slavery, it hasn't always been as awful as what went on in America. In Rome slaves themselves were paid wages and owned property, and slaves were so cheap that slaves owned other slaves. TheGreatEvilKing posted:It is precisely because of the modern reckoning with sexual assault and the trauma it inflicts that authors reach for it as a way to show how evil their villains are. It is a convenient shorthand to avoid studying human nature or reading good fiction. Why bother portraying a utopian ideology that can justify any horror, or researching mental illness, or coming up with a foil to the hero when all you need to do is describe where the bad man put his penis? One thing I find kind of aggravating about this use of rape as a motivator for characters in these pseudo-medieval worlds is the characters always have a very modern attitude towards sexual assault, but this modern or post-modern attitude is often mixed with some medieval attitudes (like about non-sexual violence) and there's little reason for some characters to be so enlightened.
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Nov 1, 2019 07:59
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pseudanonymous posted:I wonder if this is 100% accurate, slavery has existed throughout most of human history, has the sexual assault aspect always been so prevalent? We tend to immediately associate it with what went on in the Antebellum South, but, while I'm not defending slavery, it hasn't always been as awful as what went on in America. In Rome slaves themselves were paid wages and owned property, and slaves were so cheap that slaves owned other slaves. Ancient Roman slaves got used for sex a lot because a real Roman woman wasn't supposed to enjoy it. Roman slavery was pretty fuckin bad (see: salt mines). I don't mean to start a "who was oppressed more" because it's all horrific but there is a reason the Servile Wars happened.
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Nov 1, 2019 14:29
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Isn’t rape in genre fiction just a consequence of authors being advised to write what they know?
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Nov 1, 2019 16:21
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Isn’t rape in genre fiction just a consequence of authors being advised to write what they know? 
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Nov 1, 2019 16:23
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Isn’t rape in genre fiction just a consequence of authors being advised to write what they know? 
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Nov 1, 2019 21:13
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Heath posted:But there's a certain kind of sexual writing that seems to occur preferentially in fantasy fiction, and probably to a lesser degree in sci fi. I don't know if perhaps it's just a biased sample or whether sci fi has its own unique sexual sphere of mind, I don't consume a lot of it. its because those books are written by sexually insane nerds with psychotic ideas about women for sexually insane nerds with psychotic ideas abotu women. hope this helps
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Nov 1, 2019 22:11
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my bony fealty posted:male fantasy author: hmm, this woman in my story needs to experience adversity. better make it rape. This poo poo is really grinding me down. I think even Bakker and Gurm have moments where they do a decent job on an individual characters handling of rape. But that doesn't earn them any points when it's against the constant background threat/explicit sexual violence. Its just nasty and grotty and miserable
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Nov 1, 2019 22:58
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chernobyl kinsman posted:its because those books are written by sexually insane nerds with psychotic ideas about women for sexually insane nerds with psychotic ideas abotu women. hope this helps My thesis is that they are also lazy
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Nov 1, 2019 22:58
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i hate reading rape scenes written by men because over many years i have learnt to tell when an author is writing one-handed and the uncomfortably vast majority of them are
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Nov 2, 2019 04:32
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for example, gurm absolutely is it's good the show outstripped the books so much, because i only kept reading gurm because his female characters were unusually well-written when they weren't being raped so i assumed that they all had amazing narrative arcs planned out that would justify all the rape and make his obvious pleasure in writing it tolerable in retrospect. but then the show came out, it was clear he had never considered anyone's full narrative arcs, he'd been making it all up as he went along, and when a rape scene popped in it was because he really felt like writing a rape scene that day. now that i know that, i never have to spend any more money on his books
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Nov 2, 2019 04:43
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Oh, we're talking about fantasy authors and women, are we? The Wheel of Time: All This Has Been Done Before, and All This Will Be Done Again I have been promising to do this post for various people, and every time I keep putting it off because this series is a weird clusterfuck that is fourteen books long. This begs the question, "what are these fourteen books about?", which is honestly difficult to answer because there are so many desperate mythological references and subplots stuffed in because Jordan's editors didn't want to kill the golden goose. The Eye of the World posted:I have all stories, and I will tell all stories. Tales of Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of fire that could reach around the world, and his wars with Elsbet, the Queen of All. Tales of Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind. This is a reference to Elizabeth I, Moscow and the cold war ICBMs, and Mother Teresa - all in the same sentence, yet none of them are referenced in any way besides the hint that this story is set vaguely in our future. The villains talk about how much they wish they had laser cannons and whatnot from the vanished ages gone by, and the reinvention of firearms is a plot point, but like a lot of the story these elements are haphazardly tossed into - lest we forget - a fourteen book series originally planned as a trilogy. The central conflict of the story - at least the first few books before Jordan is allowed to stuff in as much random crap as he can think of - is the struggle between the Christlike "Dragon" and the Dark One Shai'tan, who as you may imagine is the local Satan equivalent, and their buildup to the Last Battle which has an appropriately silly fantasy name full of a'p'o's't'r'o'p'h'e's. This is set within the titular Wheel of Time, which is the concept that history eternally repeats in ages, like in Hinduism and Buddhism. Thus this isn't the Last Battle at all, merely another struggle in an endless war featuring a confused mix of Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism. Now add to all this vague allusions to Norse mythology, Arthurian mythology, and more I suspect I've missed, and you end up with a completely incoherent mess where you have all these powerful symbols being completely misused because they don't mean what you think they mean, or they're hidden under some bizarre spelling perhaps with apostrophes. It's great that Saint Patrick shows up to fight the...descendants of King Arthur's armies that he sent over the sea for some reason, but there is no hint of the tragedy or nobility of King Arthur or the faith of Patrick. Odin shows up, not as a powerful and wise king but as an impulsive teenager with many of the surface trappings but none of the wisdom. As all of these characters are thrown into a blender with no idea of what they represent it comes across as less of a coherent story and more of a puzzle box for the reader to feel clever when they realize that the master wizard's title of "Amyrlin" is actually just a reference to "Merlin." You may consider this incorrectly ripping off Tolkien, but you may rest assured that the entire first book is taken from The Lord of the Rings where the Nazgul enter the Shire looking for three farmboys (one is even named Perrin, who should not in any way, shape, or form be confused with Pippin) and encounter a traveling wizard seeking to defeat the Shadow who leads them on a trip to a magical white city. The Dark One's forces are comprised of Trollocs and Myrddraal, who are suspiciously similar to orcs and Nazgul along with a few creatures reminiscent of the Fell Beasts the Nazgul ride. Yet there the similarities end. Tolkien's evildoers share a love of power born from the belief they can do better than God himself. The Dark One is...simply present and uninteresting. His followers follow him out of their own narcissism and their belief in promised rewards of power, and he constantly threatens to smash the Wheel of Time and reforge creation in his own image. Yet when it comes down to it, he is fine with Rand al'Thor - the aforementioned Christ Dragon - destroying him utterly as long as it will result in a catastrophe, and the series ends on this puzzling note: A Memory of Light posted:He [Rand] understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy. Now, this raises the question - if not the powerful demon directly commanding legions of followers to kill, maim, and burn in his name, who is the enemy? To get there, we have to talk about the magic system. I know, this is usually a stupid waste of time, but the important bits are that there are three separate powers - one which can be used only by men, one which can only be used by women, and the power of the Dark One, which is described below in a flashback when some of the local special ed class opens Satan's prison: quote:Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai [wizards] and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would take it for the first time-the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today. Got it? Men use one power, women use another, and the act of making men and women equal is literally only achieved by the power of Satan. This leads us to the next great struggle of these books, gender relations, and it doesn't get any better. By the time of the books, magic-using men are going mad because they used their magic to put Satan back in jail and he cursed all male wizards to go insane. This results in the lady wizards taking charge, which is portrayed as an unnatural state of affairs ended by wizard Jesus who came back and saved all the men. It would be semi-tolerable if it were only genre magic bullshit, but nearly every interaction between a man and a woman turns into a teenage dominance struggle. The Shadow Rising posted:"Full of myself, Nynaeve al'Meara? I am full of myself?" Lan moved so quickly toward Nynaeve that Elayne very nearly wrapped him in flows of Air before she could think. One moment Nynaeve was just standing there, with just time to gape at the tall man sweeping toward her; the next her shoes were dangling a foot off the ground and she was being quite thoroughly kissed. At first she kicked his shins and hammered him with her fists and made sounds of frantic, furious protest, but her kicks slowed and stopped, and then she was holding on to his shoulders and not protesting at all. The astute reader will point out that Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve are younger women who have recently grown to adulthood. Let's take a look at Moiraine, the wise wizard who shows up to rescue the protagonists from the not-Nazgul. One would think she would be more mature about this sort of thing - The Shadow Rising posted:For an instant she regretted sending Thom away. She did not like having to waste her time with these petty affairs. But he had too much influence with Rand; the boy had to depend on her counsel. Hers, and hers alone. The Light knew he was difficult enough without interference. Thom had been settling the boy down to rule Tear when he needed to be moving on to greater things. But that was dealt with for now. The problem of bringing Thom Merrilin to heel could be managed later. Rand was the dilemma now. The concerned reader may rest assured the men are no better and spend much of their time in shocked incomprehension that all the women are like this. Every single character has the mentality of a horny teenager unsure of how to approach the person they're attracted to and acting like an angry doofus or an anime character. The men, however, are not subjected to the awkwardly G-rated sexuality the women are. The women have special magic rituals where they get naked in a group, dresses are lovingly described around "bosoms", and the authors' fetishes creep into the work with such highlights as magic women on slave leashes, form naked partnerships to polygamously marry a single man, get spanked a lot, and other things where Jordan tries to balance his desire to sell to younger readers with his desire to write one-handed. This leads us to the prose, and by and large it is not good. It is the cinematic style favored by so many fantasy authors, where Jordan interrupts the action to lovingly describe what a character is wearing (and call out how much cleavage is showing, if the ladies are involved). Jordan (and later, Sanderson) do not seem familiar with the concept that "less is more", and the prose does less to convey emotion then to simply passionlessly describe a scene and tell us how the character feels about it. There are 4 million words in this series (including the prequel novel that exists for some reason) and yet there is no soul. Much like the titular wheel of time, characters recap the same arguments about men and women, subplots drag on for entire books and ultimately by the end of the experience there is nothing gained. It does not tell us how to live, it does not offer insight into the human condition, it does not seriously grapple with notions of good and evil other than to sidestep them. Mark Twain and his devils say more about human evil in few words than the entire 4 million words of Wheel of Time. Oedipus Rex does more to grapple with free will and predestination then this series' concept of ta'veren (literally, main characters who can change the plot). Even the fans seem to have little to say other than which characters are awesome and surface-level fan theories about the plot. Why is this series a commercial success to the point where Amazon is considering making it a series?  It's absolutely perfect for people who want to upload lists of characters, or obsess over fan theories of who teleport ambushed who, or complain that characters don't act completely rationally. The 4 million words untouched by editors isn't a flaw indicating too much chaff, it's a bold field where legions of aspiring tropers can march through desperately looking for plot holes to post for clicks. Elayne Trakand or whoever isn't a compelling character in her own right, she's a powerset with a power ranking of 8 who also manages to check the 'strong female character in a book' box. Other than that? She's a teenage girl in the land of eternal teenagers. And that's the series.
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Nov 19, 2019 05:36
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:One moment Nynaeve was just standing there, with just time to gape at the tall man sweeping toward her; the next her shoes were dangling a foot off the ground and she was being quite thoroughly kissed. At first she kicked his shins and hammered him with her fists and made sounds of frantic, furious protest, but her kicks slowed and stopped, and then she was holding on to his shoulders and not protesting at all. THANKS, I HATE IT
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Nov 19, 2019 06:20
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is a reference to Elizabeth I, Moscow and the cold war ICBMs, and Mother Teresa  I knew these books were bad, but Christ.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:17
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is a reference to Elizabeth I, Moscow and the cold war ICBMs, and Mother Teresa - all in the same sentence, yet none of them are referenced in any way besides the hint that this story is set vaguely in our future. It's not Moscow and the "cold war" ICBMs, it's the actual nuclear war between the US and USSR that presumably set the stage for the Age of Legends. There's a later reference to the giants Mosk and Merk fighting each other with lances of fire and destroying the world. All these "oldest of old" legends are the distorted bare scraps of what oral tradition handed down from that era after surviving the apocalypse, rebuilding another civilization, and then burning that one down many thousands of years later.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:56
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I get it's supposed to be the legends that faded away into antiquity, but none of that poo poo matters to the narrative facing the characters! This poo poo is a puzzle box of worldbuilding that's not actually thematically connected to anything else.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:29
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I get it's supposed to be the legends that faded away into antiquity, but none of that poo poo matters to the narrative facing the characters! This poo poo is a puzzle box of worldbuilding that's not actually thematically connected to anything else. Yes. And? Please review Easter eggs in computer games next.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:51
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What's the purpose of it except to make the reader feel clever? What does it actually contribute to the stories or the characters in them except as background? Would the story suffer for those details not being there?
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Nov 19, 2019 19:54
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:Yes. And? And its 4 million words. This is cute, but ultimately unnecessary. It's a symptom of the tvtropes mindset where you skim the text at surface level looking for things that resemble your favorite anime. If the story was about nostalgia for the old world or something it would be clever, but it's more padding in a series that would shame a sumo wrestler.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:58
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Heath posted:What's the purpose of it except to make the reader feel clever? What does it actually contribute to the stories or the characters in them except as background? Would the story suffer for those details not being there? It’s the first of relatively few clues that tell you this is a future Earth, not a new fantasy setting with a few familiar sounding names. TheGreatEvilKing posted:And its 4 million words. This is cute, but ultimately unnecessary. It's a symptom of the tvtropes mindset where you skim the text at surface level looking for things that resemble your favorite anime. I can tell you’re embarrassed by your argument because you’re pretending to worry about padding from the inclusion of a couple of lines.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:06
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hey now I'm glad I never spent any of my time reading a single word of Wheel of Time!. how does it sustain itself over 4 million words? the plot seems too straightforward for that.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:18
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my bony fealty posted:hey now I'm glad I never spent any of my time reading a single word of Wheel of Time!. how does it sustain itself over 4 million words? the plot seems too straightforward for that. It's about 40% world building, 50% repetitive or entirely unnecessary character tics and plot digressions, and 10% necessary plot.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:28
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There's like two lines in the whole eleventy jillion-word series about current Earth, and that's one of them. Of all the things to care about in this trainwreck of a series, an obsession with current-day linkages is not one of them. Also, "the act of making men and women equal is literally only achieved by the power of Satan" is out there because they were equal already: they both had separate sources but pretty much the same capability. It's going after what they think is a new power source that destroys this equality. But the overall complaint about the gender issues is spot-on. Everyone, regardless of age, acts like a baffled teenager when it comes to the unfathomable mystery that is the other sex. It's like a horrific medievalesque mashup of Home Improvement and Degrassi Jr. High. my bony fealty posted:hey now I'm glad I never spent any of my time reading a single word of Wheel of Time!. how does it sustain itself over 4 million words? the plot seems too straightforward for that. Sideplots. Clothing descriptions. Sideplots to the sideplots, with more clothing descriptions.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:33
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my bony fealty posted:hey now I'm glad I never spent any of my time reading a single word of Wheel of Time!. how does it sustain itself over 4 million words? the plot seems too straightforward for that. Rand al'thor (get it?) is the absolutely most magic destined hero. He doesn't want to be. He complains about it. He wants to learn the noble way of the katana instead. Perrin is a slightly less magic destined hero. He doesn't want to be. He complains about it. He saves his hometown from trollocs and the elect him chieftan. He doesn't want to be chieftain. He complains about it. Mat is approximately the same level of magic destined hero. He doesn't want to be. He runs away. He gets pressed into military service. He doesn't want to be. He runs away. He's captured and forced into a noble marriage. He doesn't want to be. He complains about it. Egwene al'vere (get it?) is less destined, but more magic. She wants to be. She uses an ancient magical horn to summon an ancient and magical hero. They join the circus. It's massively padded and convoluted for the sake of it. Imagine a Lord of the Rings style heroic travelogue. Our heroes travel across the land, encountering new cultures and rallying them to the fight against not-Sauron. Now imagine that every single one of those countries digs their heels in at every step, and stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that not-Sauron exists, or that Rand is actually not-Jesus. Now bolt on all the shenanigans at not-Hogwarts, as our heroines get punished with spankings and pot-washing duty because not-Snape is clearly a Deatheater and nobody wants to know about it, and they have to go on a quest for the s'angreal (get it?)and more spankings and more pot-washing, and then we need to follow the circus master and see how he reacts to coming of T'armon Gai'den (Get it? get it? do you loving get it yet!). Not-Sauron has 13 lieutenants, who can all shapeshift, so we have to follow all of their plans when they're hanging out in Shayol Ghul (double get it?) and find out that so-and-so from the prologue 5 books ago was them in disguise, and even when the heroes start ticking them off guess what, this other character is actually the dead lieutenant reincarnated so that we can keep this loving cast list from getting any smaller. There are 127 unique PoV characters. A lot of them are one-offs in prolouges and epilogues, so if we cut out everyone who only has a single PoV that leaves....77.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:40
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Mat is approximately the same level of magic destined hero. He doesn't want to be. He runs away. He gets pressed into military service. He doesn't want to be. He runs away. He's captured and forced into a noble marriage. He doesn't want to be. He complains about it. Mat's the worst, and I never see why people love him so much.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:46
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