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FrozenGoldfishGod posted:I'm pretty sure the only book where they tacked on the "...and you're hosed" bit was in Gehenna. Which was kinda the point of a big, line-ending event book, really. Dark Secrets introduced a never before heard of super secret cabal of vampires that secretly control everything and their goal is to *shuffles notes* fight against an alien parasite invasion where everyone touched by Vicissitude is going to turn sooner or later But hey apparently if you think this is kinda dumb youre a rapist enabler
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Nov 2, 2019 08:32
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LatwPIAT posted:There's a significant difference between saying "OK we're adding a new obscure bloodline of vampires-but-Voodoo that you can play if you want to" and "you know those vampires you were already playing? Yeah they're all the Thing and you're hosed, sucks to be you". it's "This vampire type, along with anybody else who's managed to learn their signature Discipline, both of which have been out for some time? Yeah, they're the Thing, sucks to be you if you didn't want that"
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Nov 2, 2019 10:27
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Loomer posted:There's been at least three Smiling Lords - two chosen directly by Charon, and one by the other Deathlords. He's probably the most replaced of all the Deathlords. On the other hand, I feel like the Skeletal Lord has never been replaced and... well, yikes, you know? The same is probably true for the Beggar Lord who is arguably even more scary but is more subtle about it.
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Nov 2, 2019 14:53
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Nessus posted:By this cockamamie reasoning, a Garou channeling an ancestor spirit is more a vampire than the ur-vampire himself. A Risen! A wraith using Inhabit! A Hollow One! Granted a Hollow One would probably be more Goth than Caine. The garou isn't dead though?
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Nov 2, 2019 15:38
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Dawgstar posted:On the other hand, I feel like the Skeletal Lord has never been replaced and... well, yikes, you know? The same is probably true for the Beggar Lord who is arguably even more scary but is more subtle about it. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Either you go mad with time or the mask forces you to fit the archetype of your predecessors. The Desthlords masks, you see, are sentient. And worse. They’re forged of Tithesteel. Not just one soul, but many, many of which survive as Spectres - the oldest, most powerful spectres barring the Malfeans. There is thus every possibility that the masks sentience is tainted irrevocably by the sympathetic link to dozens or hundreds of the enemy, inducing a feedback loop of the worst traits of each archetype. The poor newdead Wraith who got destroyed for treachery in Ends of Empire never stood a chance against dozens of cold, calculating, spiteful minds seeking to pull him down and break his psyche into the mold of every paranoid, treasonous, fascistic Smiling Lord before him.
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Nov 2, 2019 16:10
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Dawgstar posted:On the other hand, I feel like the Skeletal Lord has never been replaced and... well, yikes, you know? The same is probably true for the Beggar Lord who is arguably even more scary but is more subtle about it. The Skeletal Lord is one of my favourite NPCs in the entire oWoD.
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Nov 2, 2019 16:30
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Zereth posted:Yeah the issue isn't "Vampires but The Thing" When I was told about the Dirty Secret, it was anyone who had Vicissitude used on them, so even folks who fought against a Tzi and got flesh-rended were in trouble! It was a pretty wild plotline at the base.
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Nov 2, 2019 16:33
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The Skeletal Lord is cool, because thousands of years of doing his job have left him totally insane, and it's the type of insanity that would see him sow plague and destruction across the entire living world.....but he's also a good guy doing all he can who never breaks. He only wants to devastate the living world because he thinks he's one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and that's sort of their thing. And he doesn't do it because it's supposed to be part of the Apocalypse, not just something he rolls out any given Sunday. Otherwise he just tries to keep things together, fight Oblivion, and do the best he can. To the point he goes down swinging in the end, and survives his Harrowing. So now he's just wandering the Labyrinth, and I pity whatever dumb bastard ends up in his path trying to preach the good word of Oblivion.
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Nov 2, 2019 16:53
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Darn it, now I want to run a Wraith game where the PCs are all attached to an old high school building (maybe they turned it into the building where they taught autoshop and other stuff in prep for trades and is the Guild hangout, because I like the Guilds) before being decommissioned entirely but costs too much money to tear down. For the kids going to the current high school it's the 'old haunted school building behind the gymnasium' some day. I'd probably cal it High School of the Dead. Maybe some day.
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Nov 2, 2019 17:51
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Give me a Wraith: the Great War video game Paradox, you cowards!
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Nov 2, 2019 18:21
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Edit: Stupid network errors.
MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 18:28
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Gotta say, Anarch has disappointed me with its info on Toredor Antitribu. They like abstract art...and that's about it. Great, very informative and helpful for me in envisioning my PC. As far as I know, the Antitribu don't get much detail anywhere. That's part of why I grabbed "Dark Secrets," it is supposed to have stuff on Antitribu. Also, on the topic of what the hell even is Caine, isn't Lilith also a mystery? Is she a Mage? A Vampire? A Demon? None of the above and something totally unique to her?
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Nov 2, 2019 19:09
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In Vampire she's a big ol ?, she only really shows up in some endgame stuff. In Demon she doesn't exist, although Caine does. Or to be perfectly accurate claims about her relations with Lucifer and Adam and God are bullshit, she might be some sort of figure from after all that though. Odds are on her non-existence, because there's literally zero reason for her not to get involved with things. Caine is burned out, there's nothing that should keep Lilith from putting a hand in here or there. God might be dead, but is probably playing an extremely long game, Lucifer invented demonology and monotheism, everyone else does poo poo. She's completely absent in a tangible sense except for one end game scenario. The inference is she's supposed to be a Mage though. Mulva fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 19:24
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Anyone here read Rachel Rising? It has a very interesting Lilith in it.
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Nov 2, 2019 19:34
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NikkolasKing posted:Gotta say, Anarch has disappointed me with its info on Toredor Antitribu. They like abstract art...and that's about it. Great, very informative and helpful for me in envisioning my PC. The Player's Guide to the Sabbat probably has the most on them with the two-page clan write-up. It's kind of interesting as it turns them into a secret sect backbone. Like... an Anarch Toreador is just probably going to be a Toreador who thinks they can get more out of being an Anarch or just pissed off their Prince and had to leg it. Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 21:17
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Lord_Hambrose posted:The garou isn't dead though? Next you'll be claiming bats are bugs!
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Nov 2, 2019 21:18
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Vampires aren't dead. They're undead. Most people who end up as vampires go through an interstitial phase in which they are actually corpses, but that's clearly not compulsory.
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Nov 2, 2019 21:23
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Dawgstar posted:The Player's Guide to the Sabbat probably has the most on them with the two-page clan write-up. It's kind of interesting as it turns them into a secret sect backbone. Like... an Anarch Toreador is just probably going to be a Toreador who thinks they can get more out of being an Anarch or just pissed off their Prince and had to leg it. Well I just wanted to get as full a picture of what it's like to be a Toreador a s I can. Thanks for the info on the Player's Guide, I'll definitely look into that next. I like the Sabbat and Tue Black Hand far more than the Camarilla or Anarchs anyway . Maybe for Bloodlines 2 someday will mod in a Sabbat Ending like they did for Bloodlines 1. At least, I don't think we're getting a canon Sabbat route in the game.
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Nov 2, 2019 21:44
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So how mad do y'all think vampires would get at a neonate who kept referring to the Masquerade as Vampire Kayfabe? Either WoD.
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Nov 2, 2019 22:42
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Mors Rattus posted:So how mad do y'all think vampires would get at a neonate who kept referring to the Masquerade as Vampire Kayfabe? Either WoD. Invictus: Divides into the old-fashioned survivors and the new money gangsters. New money's down. Old money uses Dominate to force you to give them your pants as penance for saying that stupid thing, then moves on with the meeting. Carthians: Ranges from being down to annoyed sneer. Sanctified: Professional wrestling is not technically a sin, but that doesn't make it okay to bring to church. Acolytes: Angriest response. You've been given a sacred gift and are comparing it to John Cena. You are not welcome back to the circle until you take your inner divinity more seriously. Dragons: Second angriest response. You labor under a curse from God. If you think fighting that is like backyard wrestling then you don't recognize the level of self-discipline the Mysteries are going to demand of you. IVWC (International Vampire Wrestling Covenant): Saying "kayfabe" is not kayfabe. Commit harder to the gimmick. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 22:59
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Mors Rattus posted:So how mad do y'all think vampires would get at a neonate who kept referring to the Masquerade as Vampire Kayfabe? Either WoD. Pro-wrestling as we understand it is a little over a century old, so the vernacular is probably old enough for some vampires to pick up. Whether or not they would appreciate the gesture will probably be down to aesthetics and patience with the individual neonate. If you're in good standing with a Toreador they're likely to play along for the sheer performance of it all, but try that on a pissed-off Ventrue and they will ask you to cut that poo poo out pronto.
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Nov 2, 2019 23:18
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I Am Just a Box posted:Acolytes: Angriest response. You've been given a sacred gift and are comparing it to John Cena. You are not welcome back to the circle until you take your inner divinity more seriously. Oh, they're AEW fans.
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Nov 2, 2019 23:44
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Edit: Wacky forum double posting.
Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 23:52
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LatwPIAT posted:There's a significant difference between saying "OK we're adding a new obscure bloodline of vampires-but-Voodoo that you can play if you want to" and "you know those vampires you were already playing? Yeah they're all the Thing and you're hosed, sucks to be you". No, there's no difference. You can't say "this splat book is optional but THIS OTHER SPLAT BOOK, which I despise, is NOT optional." It's all optional. There's literally no difference between any of the ideas presented in any splats, they are all optional. Some of the ideas you like, some of the ideas you don't like. That's the difference. Everything after that is nothing more than justifying why your opinion is objectively correct. You write the game yourself. You decide what ideas you use or not. The Assaku aren't real and can't hurt you. You can dislike the idea if you want but let's not pretend it's some dark stain on an otherwise unimpeachable product line.
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Nov 3, 2019 00:49
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:No, there's no difference. You can't say "this splat book is optional but THIS OTHER SPLAT BOOK, which I despise, is NOT optional." It's all optional. There's literally no difference between any of the ideas presented in any splats, they are all optional. Er... what? That's a complete non sequitur. You're attacking an argument that absolutely nobody was making. I've never read Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand; I have no opinion on its quality, and I'm only going by what's been said here in this thread by you and others; but... I don't see how you're actually addressing what LatwPIAT and Zereth posted. The issue raised was that if you accept what was in the books, one introduces a new weird type of vampire and hence has no effect on established characters, while the other significantly retcons an existing group of vampires that PCs might already belong to. That's certainly a significant difference, and to say there's no difference because they're both optional is either spectacularly missing the point or being deliberately obtuse.
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Nov 3, 2019 01:07
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Jerik posted:Er... what? That's a complete non sequitur. You're attacking an argument that absolutely nobody was making. It's a game you write yourself. All of the books are optional, that means they're all equally weightless. Not every bit of metaplot makes it into every game, meaning the Assaku are only relevant in games where they're used. If they aren't used, then they don't actually retcon anything. If they're used, then it's not a retcon, it's just the plot. Metaplot has never been gospel, y'all. nobody is being forced to use new ideas.
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Nov 3, 2019 01:17
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:It's a game you write yourself. All of the books are optional, that means they're all equally weightless. So your response is to double down and repeat the same completely irrelevant argument. Okay. I mean, nobody is saying that you're forced to use metaplot. I'm not sure why you keep repeating that. I'm pretty sure nobody disagrees with that, but it has nothing to do with anything. That doesn't mean that a particular bit of metaplot can't be bad or ill-advised, unless you want to argue that there's no such thing as a bad RPG supplement because they're all optional, which... seems like a rather unproductive stance to take.
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Nov 3, 2019 01:29
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Jerik posted:So your response is to double down and repeat the same completely irrelevant argument. Okay. I mean, nobody is saying that you're forced to use metaplot. I'm not sure why you keep repeating that. I'm pretty sure nobody disagrees with that, but it has nothing to do with anything. That doesn't mean that a particular bit of metaplot can't be bad or ill-advised, unless you want to argue that there's no such thing as a bad RPG supplement because they're all optional, which... seems like a rather unproductive stance to take. Not liking the book is fine but people dislike it to an extent which suggests they feel somehow threatened by it, which is absurd. It's also the only good suppliment OWOD had, so people who dislike it are actually objectively wrong. I know I said liking RPGs is all subjective before, but that's only for people who aren't me.
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Nov 3, 2019 02:24
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Wraith exists so DSotBH being the only good supplement is automatically false
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Nov 3, 2019 02:38
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:Not liking the book is fine but people dislike it to an extent which suggests they feel somehow threatened by it, which is absurd. It's also the only good suppliment OWOD had, so people who dislike it are actually objectively wrong. I know I said liking RPGs is all subjective before, but that's only for people who aren't me. Maybe make an argument as to why it's good, then? Rather than just assert 'it's good and the wide popular dislike of it is a sign that you're all terrified sheep.'
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Nov 3, 2019 02:41
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Mors Rattus posted:So how mad do y'all think vampires would get at a neonate who kept referring to the Masquerade as Vampire Kayfabe? Either WoD.
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Nov 3, 2019 02:55
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Joe Slowboat posted:Maybe make an argument as to why it's good, then? Rather than just assert 'it's good and the wide popular dislike of it is a sign that you're all terrified sheep.' In my subjective, nonbinding opinion, it's good because it presents a new zeitgeist of play for overpowered characters. It gives depth and texture to an existing clan without stepping on anyone elses' gimmick. I, personally, find it interesting. there's plenty in the OWOD i don't find interesting, which has zero impact on my stories, which somehow I don't reguard as being an embarrassing apostate, veritably an insult to the game itself. that's because i'm actually morally superior to the people who disagree with me, because of my more refined taste in pretend vampire bloodmagick books.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:08
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also wraith isn't a suppliment it's its own gameline.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:08
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:also wraith isn't a suppliment it's its own gameline. That had many good supplements. Sadly most of them were at the end of its game line. Edit: Now that I think about it one of its best supplements is the end of its game line. Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 03:12
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Loomer posted:Wraith exists so DSotBH being the only good supplement is automatically false Not only that, this page isn't even in it! 
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Nov 3, 2019 03:14
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:also wraith isn't a suppliment it's its own gameline. With supplements that are awesome
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Nov 3, 2019 03:14
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the point is that suppliments bad, gameline good. gamelines introduce new ideas and modes of play. suppliments introduce new ideas and modes of play, so obviously they're bad. edit: here, let me explain further werewolf vampire: good bloodmage vampire: good sad art gently caress vampire: good necrophile godfather vampire: good cronenberg vampire: NOOOOOOOO ninja vampire: good other ninja vampire: good kindred of the east: good (new gameline) i feel like i've explained myself fully, so i'm going to drop this now. people who disagree with me, please be wrong in silence.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:24
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I'd rate Archons and Templars as probably my top Masquerade supplement, with the Blood Magic books and the Guides to series as good enough seconds. Time of Thin Blood was fun.
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Nov 3, 2019 04:11
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Aristocrat vampires: good Anarchist vampires: good Evil for Evil's Sake Vampires: good Lilith vampires: good predatory space parasite vampire that actually does something ideologically novel with the archetype: NNOOOOO, JAIL FOR MOTHER, JAIL FOR ONE THOUSAND YEARS Roman vampires: good Riot grrl vampires: good Whatever the Niktuku Are: Good
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Nov 3, 2019 04:20
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Nov 3, 2019 04:26
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