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Nail Rat posted:If he read it, which, why would he have read it? It was published after he left Earth, and Rorschach didn't have a copy of the journal in Antarctica. He also hadn't written that line in his journal the last time Dr. Manhattan was in his presence before that. You're kinda missing the point that the joke wasn't really for Manhattan. It's for Laurie. She doesn't even really believe that he's listening to the messages, so she's just making jokes for herself to herself. It's just her reaffirming her own worldview, so she wouldn't give a poo poo if Manhattan lacks context as to her double-meaning.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:05
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Nail Rat posted:
Your argument actually swayed me the other way, it makes sense that Laurie would have 1) Read the journal 2) Been like "oh yeah its legit, thats definitely how he talks" 3) paid attention to the line that draws an analogy of her fathers life and death as a cruel joke. So its not a 100% implausible line (still not good though).
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Nov 5, 2019 21:06
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Veidt is definitely a prisoner and probably on Mars, but I can't think of a good reason Jon would put him there instead of just killing him. Maybe because Veidt is still contributing something that Jon thinks is necessary.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:07
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Hakkesshu posted:On that token, I am also weirded out that Dr. Manhattan apparently just went back to Mars, when he outright said he was leaving the galaxy in the comic. Makes me think it's all just a fabrication. That's what I've been thinking too. The phone booth Dr. Manhattan corey hotline is too absurd to be what it purports to actually be.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:08
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Nail Rat posted:You can come up with an explanation for anybody to say that line if they had any connection to Rorschach if that's the way you're going to draw the connection. Rorschach never even said it, he wrote it in his journal. It wasn't even remotely close to the actual event of his death (in terms of the story, at least). Also, there's no reason to think Dr. Manhattan ever cared enough to teleport to Earth to read the journal after it was published. He wasn't even in the presence of Rorschach after he wrote that line (until he dropped the second draft of his journal off before heading to Antarctica). So it's not like he just happened to speedread the journal after merking him either. See this is why its funny to me that that one guy said you could watch this show without knowing the source material. Like, you could probably get along fine with the weird and cool cop show where everyone wears a mask and it has confusing politics, but all these kinda half-assed references and easter eggs would feel like a confusing mess, and much of the show very much assumes you know the general arc of the story and Manhattan's deal and all that. This is to say nothing of being faithful to the source or characters or whatever which so far is a mixed bag at best but I cant imagine trying to piece together all the non-cop drama parts based on what the show alone gives you.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:12
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I think it's pretty obvious that the Russians created a hoax purporting that Dr. Manhattan was on Mars, Veidt believed it and built a rocket ship to Mars to go and visit him to ask him to pick up the slack and help out, then the Russians made a real Dr. Manhattan of their own only he's red instead of blue, and that's the thing that's imprisoning Veidt because they're afraid the truth will get out.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:16
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Sleeveless posted:She's talking to the man who killed Rorschach. Nail Rat posted:You can come up with an explanation for anybody to say that line if they had any connection to Rorschach if that's the way you're going to draw the connection. lol c'mon Plus if she's been sending these things for years she could have explained that they found his notebook at some point and maybe even read some of it, and since he is Dr. Manhattan he would always remember it forever. And if that is him imprisoning Veidt on Mars he's likely still monitoring earth events to an extent and "hey here's this thing that might expose the whole lie" might warrant a cursory skim from him. Not to mention this series has been revealing things in a non-linear narrative the entire time, and literally every episode there's some hot take like "this doesn't make sense! why are they showing the cops to be good!" before that gets immediately reversed the following episode, so "there's no way this can possibly make sense" is suuuper a flimsy argument.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:20
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I think the argument that it's fine because the call isn't for Manhattan, it's for Laurie makes the most sense here.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:21
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Nail Rat posted:If he read it, which, why would he have read it? It was published after he left Earth, and Rorschach didn't have a copy of the journal in Antarctica. He also hadn't written that line in his journal the last time Dr. Manhattan was in his presence before that. It's a verbal form of flicking off Dr. Manhattan. Her joke, at the end of it, was about an omnipotent being getting killed unexpectedly after being convinced that everything is on an unavoidable trajectory- in other words she is insulting his entire world view as she understands it. The whole monologue was antagonistic towards him. The line from Rorschach's journal was extra flair in her giving Manhattan the bird.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:21
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I'm also not sure it matters. Even if it's a winking reference, are you upset that they reused a line? Is it that the line objectively sucks or just that they stole the joke? (to the extent you don't think Laurie is saying it as a joke to herself)
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Nov 5, 2019 21:24
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Similarly, despite what the creator wants to say blah blah blah, I'm content to let a massive metallic dildo just be a massive metallic dildo.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:25
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Codependent Poster posted:Veidt is definitely a prisoner and probably on Mars, but I can't think of a good reason Jon would put him there instead of just killing him. Maybe because Veidt is still contributing something that Jon thinks is necessary. The most out-there thing I can think of is that the Veidt we're watching isn't the actual Veidt but is himself a clone and this whole thing is part of some weird experiment to see if there is a possibility for Veidt to reform or change. He's the one person to ever successfully get one over on Manhattan and as a person who has become bored and dispassionate by never being surprised anymore that's the most valuable thing in existence to him and since his inability to relate to other people eventually made him unable to function he has a vested interest in understanding how a person could learn to empathize and be content with the world they're given rather than constantly push at the boundaries and thoughtlessly kill anything in their way. Manhattan probably has a whole cosmic zoo full of Veidts all in their own different little lab rat mazes.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:26
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Sleeveless posted:The most out-there thing I can think of is that the Veidt we're watching isn't the actual Veidt but is himself a clone and this whole thing is part of some weird experiment to see if there is a possibility for Veidt to reform or change. He's the one person to ever successfully get one over on Manhattan and as a person who has become bored and dispassionate by never being surprised anymore that's the most valuable thing in existence to him and since his inability to relate to other people eventually made him unable to function he has a vested interest in understanding how a person could learn to empathize and be content with the world they're given rather than constantly push at the boundaries and thoughtlessly kill anything in their way. Manhattan probably has a whole cosmic zoo full of Veidts all in their own different little lab rat mazes. I Have No Mask And I Must Escape.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:31
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I was hesitant at first. As was my DVR, which refused to record the first couple of episodes because of reasons. But that's why we have On Demand. I'm enjoying the show so far. It's got a nice, slow build. And Looking Glass is being played by Buster Scruggs... I like it. Thankfully, they stopped leaning so heavily on Sister Night's leitmotif. I mean, it was a cool beat 'n all, but I think I could figure out when she was doing stuff without that track playing every single time.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:56
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Veidt is full-on crazy and I wonder how they're going to connect his plot with the main plot. I suspect the series is going to end up being a similar overall plot to the original. Original: masked heroes who are lovely people, Cold War nuclear annihilation averted by Veidt orchestrating a false flag alien squid attack HBO series: masked police who are lovely, race war somehow averted due to 7th Kav attacks, maybe Veidt is involved in some way, maybe the synthetic lithium batteries 7th Kav are hoarding are going to somehow lead to Dr. Manhattan getting blamed? It seems like maybe Senator Keene is part of a plan to provoke 7th Kav attacks to justify expanding brutal masked policing all across the country? That doesn't strike me as something Veidt would care too much about. Ozzy already saved the world from nuclear annihilation by murdering a mere 3 million people, race relations and policing don't seem like they'd matter much to Veidt. Anyway it's pretty clear to me that the core conflicts of the series are going to be generations of racial violence and authoritarian policing.
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Nov 5, 2019 22:28
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Mike the TV posted:Obviously Rorschach gained a huge cult of personality after his death and release of his journal. 30 years later, white supremacists have co-opted that cult, but in the meantime it would make sense that his journal was scrutinized by the public at large for years. I mean it would be like if wikileaks absolutely 100% proved that the Illuminati was real. Everyone on Earth would read that information. So anyway, years later his little quips become common parlance. Hence, roll on snare drum. It has extra meaning when directed towards Manhattan, the person that killed Rorschach. Walter Kovacs, a.k.a. Rorschach. (Mr. Kovacs, who also disappeared in1985, is linked to one of Mr. Veidt’s smaller and stranger embarrassments. In 1986, New Frontiersman published excerpts from a journal allegedly written by Mr. Kovacs filled with outrageous claims against Mr. Veidt, including accusations of murder and an intimation that he was responsible for both the D.I.E. and Dr. Manhattan’s exile from Earth. The journal was dismissed as either a hoax or the expression of mental illness, though it remains an object of fascination for fringe artists and anti-government extremists.) Sure doesn't sound like it had any widespread cultural impact or sparked much public debate.
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Nov 5, 2019 22:35
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I think the reason why Laurie picked the slide projector guy rather than another agent was because he illustrated that he had a deeper background knowledge of the 7th Cav than the other agents did, especially the jag in charge who shot him down for bringing it up. I'm betting the journal is read by about the same demographic as the Turner Diaries are today aka racists and academics. Edit: grammar
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Nov 5, 2019 22:53
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nooneofconsequence posted:This is what Viedt's obituary said about the journal: ...Think about the source? Why would Veidt’s obituary give any credence to the journal? Of course it would be dismissive. FBI agents and an entire Ku Klux Klan ripoff read it and quote it.
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Nov 6, 2019 00:05
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Okay I'm cracking this thread open because I have a dumb theory but I'm not reading anything online about the show (including the Internet materials for the show I'm supposed to be reading) and wanted to get this off my chest real quick. When I saw Veidt in the first episode, his little segment was so pointless and strange the only thing I could think was "This is the show's Black Freighter." In the latest episode I feel like it's just plain confirmed when he rides around on his horse and some skull and crossbones flags are plastered on the screen as if to say "hey, this is the Black Freighter segment of the show!" It's important to also remember that one of the major allegories of Tales of the Black Freighter is connection to Veidt himself. It makes sense that Veidt be the primary subject of an allegory to something else. So I got to thinking, if we assume Veidt's entire "plot" is an allegory for something, what is it an allegory to? Without the entire series being out, we won't really know. We're halfway through and we've accumulated enough questions to keep a Lost fanatic busy and enough answers to satisfy... nobody. So, what's the guess? My guess is that Veidt's recreating the tale of getting the Watchmen IP used past the original comic's prime. Episode two's stage play is Hollywood's interpretation, representing the movie. Despite it being burned alive, the IP was put in the basement and would have a use later. Episode three marks the two offers Lindelof got to make the show that he turned down, via the failure of sending someone to space and the failure of hunting the game he wanted to. It's a small and short idea with very few connecting points but, like I said, I wanted to get the idea off my chest. Plus, if there aren't already some guesses here about the allegories, it's a conversation I'd like to start up. Edit: Also Trent Reznor's soundtrack is loving enthralling. I love that they got him for this. There was a part in the latest episode that reminded me of this bit of Black & White soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYJqZA7n-Ys&t=71s Nail Rat posted:By the way while I'm mostly enjoying the show I didn't quite get the punchline of Laurie's joke DaveKap fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 00:30
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I'd be curious to see what Lady Trieu is about. Possible psychic, possible subordinate of Veidt (he did use many shell corporations to hide his activities), maybe even extraterrestrial. After reading the Peteything about the purchasing of Veidt Industries, I'm now almost certain she is involved in Veidt's disappearance / imprisonment.
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Nov 6, 2019 00:51
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Laurie's joke is literally the same kind of joke Wanda tells Bojack about the mulch, which sadly is not on youtube, but i found this one that's even more accurate to what she was telling https://youtu.be/vln21XGUn3U
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Nov 6, 2019 01:14
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Mike the TV posted:Obviously Rorschach gained a huge cult of personality after his death and release of his journal. 30 years later, white supremacists have co-opted that cult, but in the meantime it would make sense that his journal was scrutinized by the public at large for years. I mean it would be like if wikileaks absolutely 100% proved that the Illuminati was real. Everyone on Earth would read that information. So anyway, years later his little quips become common parlance. Hence, roll on snare drum. It has extra meaning when directed towards Manhattan, the person that killed Rorschach. She also starts the brick joke either quoting or paraphrasing Rorschach at the beginning of the episode. The whole episode is bookended by it.
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Nov 6, 2019 02:34
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Agent355 posted:I can't believe so many people struggle with the plotline 'laurie becomes her mother' when that was such a key aspect of the books. I’m not the smartest dude in the world or anything but holy poo poo are some people just bad at it. seeing that tweet and the comments agreeing with it in real time was really confusing. Is it because this show is based on an existing and influential property? Why do they type like that? Reading the full quote provides more context to so they would have just had to not read the article? much to think about. and just because this is the newly designated Lindelof Zone; I have had several recent conversations about Lost where the other person was sure that they were dead the whole time.
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Nov 6, 2019 03:04
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MechaSeinfeld posted:I’m not the smartest dude in the world or anything but holy poo poo are some people just bad at it. seeing that tweet and the comments agreeing with it in real time was really confusing. People are wilfully obtuse to information inconvenient for their world view and when it doesnt fit their entrenched biases and righteous personal narrative. Twitter is a cesspool for piss poor criticsm, reactionary hyperbole and groupthink for the sake of that sweet endorphin rush when you get a like or retweet. Regarding that rediculous but weirdly common misconception about Lost: I watched an interview with Lindelof maybe a year after the finale and the interviewer was under this same impression. It was priceless watching Damons reaction. He went on to explain that this issue stemmed from ABCs decision to roll B-roll of the plane crash set during the credits without consulting Lindelof or Cuse. They didnt even know that was going to happen. It wasnt that he didnt watch into the credits of the final cut, it was a broadcast visual addition by ABC. I think that misunderstanding was also just part of the general issue of people not really getting how the "purgatory out of time" reality worked and that footage just made it worse. Heres an article from 2010 about it: https://ew.com/article/2010/05/26/lost-final-scenes-wreckage/ Edit: Heres the interview from 2012. The moment happens at 6:13. The interviewer is a loving moron and embarrasses himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5chCMRsEVo Its a pretty good interview if you want to see Lindelof justify what a lot of people hated about the show and ending. Its rare he got this deep with someone who was generally dissapointed by the show and hes pretty engaged with his other criticisms. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 03:30
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Codependent Poster posted:Veidt is definitely a prisoner and probably on Mars, but I can't think of a good reason Jon would put him there instead of just killing him. Maybe because Veidt is still contributing something that Jon thinks is necessary. i assume he’s keeping Veidt around as a World’s Smartest Man Ant Colony
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Nov 6, 2019 05:02
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Mant colony, if you will
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Nov 6, 2019 05:12
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AccountSupervisor posted:
Oh, man. That interview is just one big cringe-fest. Oof.
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Nov 6, 2019 05:14
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Milo and POTUS posted:Mant colony, if you will
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Nov 6, 2019 05:30
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Yea it’s clearly a smant colony
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Nov 6, 2019 05:31
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/unsubscribe
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Nov 6, 2019 05:38
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Giggle Goose posted:I think the reason why Laurie picked the slide projector guy rather than another agent was because he illustrated that he had a deeper background knowledge of the 7th Cav than the other agents did, especially the jag in charge who shot him down for bringing it up. I'm betting the journal is read by about the same demographic as the Turner Diaries are today aka racists and academics. Or it could also be she picked the one person in the room least likely to get in the way of her investigation. Doubt she cares much for Petey (who may prove to be an invaluable asset (and piece of rear end) in the future). This show also seems to be quite a..."Rorschach" test...for one's political leanings. Heh. Kodo fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 05:45
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I would like Patrick Wilson to come back as Nite Owl, tia HBO. PS: your Watchmen show ain't bad.
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Nov 6, 2019 06:16
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MoaM posted:I would like Patrick Wilson to come back as Nite Owl, tia HBO. Agreed on both points. I'm really surprised at how much I'm liking it.
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Nov 6, 2019 07:21
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The only  I'd like to add this thread is that A, the news-stand scene from last week's episode implies there are psychics (or a singular psychic or another psychic device) in Tulsa and B, there are prominent, slightly transparent blue dots in the sky of two of the outdoor Veidt scenes.
MoaM fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 07:34
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MoaM posted:The only
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Nov 6, 2019 07:44
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AccountSupervisor posted:Edit: I love when the dude is like "I mean, if [insert fanfiction here] happened at the end of Lost I would have been totally satisfied... and I'm just riffing here!" This is Damon having to unexpectedly address a bunch of dumb internet arguments and he never acts like a dick about it.
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Nov 6, 2019 10:22
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It’s amazing how well cast the watchman movie is...it’s too bad the actors aren’t age appropriate to play their counterparts in this shown
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Nov 6, 2019 16:00
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Empress Brosephine posted:It’s amazing how well cast the watchman movie is...it’s too bad the actors aren’t age appropriate to play their counterparts in this shown There may be a legit riot if Dr. Manhattan shows up and is voiced by anyone besides Billy Crudup. The loving mastercard guy.
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Nov 6, 2019 16:28
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It is really hard for me to imagine anyone besides Billy Crudup voicing Manhattan
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Nov 6, 2019 17:00
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Hilario Baldness posted:I'd be curious to see what Lady Trieu is about. Possible psychic, possible subordinate of Veidt (he did use many shell corporations to hide his activities), maybe even extraterrestrial. After reading the Peteything about the purchasing of Veidt Industries, I'm now almost certain she is involved in Veidt's disappearance / imprisonment. Yeah, I'm getting that vibe as well. Dr. Manhattan could be a huge red herring. Petey did mention that she quoted Ozymandias after she revealed that huge structure in the middle of Tulsa after buying Veidt's company.
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