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https://twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1192904747382198273
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Nov 8, 2019 22:22
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Prester Jane posted:How's it worked out in the long term? Better or worse than tackling the root problem head on? Tacking the root problem head on was never a serious possibility. Sure, if different people had been running a different nation, things would have turned out differently. But this is America, and we'll destroy the world yet.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:24
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Any day where Sean Hannity becomes unhinged is a good day 
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Nov 8, 2019 22:24
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I have this posture because I have a neuromuscular condition. It can happen when your back is compensating for weak core/lower body muscles. Given that his sons stand this way as well, I wonder whether they might have something hereditary. Although, I don't think they stand that way all the time so...hard to say.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:26
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Meridian posted:"Didn't completely fix the issue, may as well have done nothing." When the short-term stopgap makes the problem worse in the long run... The earlier Iraq example was pretty apt for the argument I'm trying to make here. There was a period about six months where it could be argued that the American Invasion had improved things, however after that short-term Improvement the inevitable happened and it all went sideways. Setting all that aside, my argument is not and has never been anywhere in the neighborhood of "should have done nothing". My argument is: "should have fixed it right the first time" and "stop gaps/half measures inevitably make the problem worse in the long term".
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Nov 8, 2019 22:28
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1192854195625316352 thread: https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1192874095366541321
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Nov 8, 2019 22:30
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Angry_Ed posted:Any day where Sean Hannity becomes unhinged is a good day So, every day?
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Nov 8, 2019 22:30
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There Bias Two posted:I have this posture because I have a neuromuscular condition. It can happen when your back is compensating for weak core/lower body muscles. Given that his sons stand this way as well, I wonder whether they might have something hereditary. 1980s "businessman power posture", the sons emulate the father. Trump also wears lifted heels in his shoes because he can't admit he's under 6 feet tall. Also, the pic is incomplete without the centaur body IMO.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:30
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jesus christ, this guy the "people" is begging to be visible between "you" and "have"
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Nov 8, 2019 22:31
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Oops wrong thread!
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Nov 8, 2019 22:31
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https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1192882744461840384?s=20
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Nov 8, 2019 22:31
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It’s literally impossible to categorize the MAGA Challenge videos between the serious ones and the joke ones. Trump seriously risks awarding someone making fun of him the prize. But he’s going to stuff the winner on the prize no matter what so I guess that doesn’t matter.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:32
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Mystic Mongol posted:Tacking the root problem head on was never a serious possibility. Sure, if different people had been running a different nation, things would have turned out differently. But this is America, and we'll destroy the world yet. So what you're saying is that better things aren't possible? That we should just be happy with whatever compromises and half measures we get because actually fixing the problem was never a "serious possibility"? I reject that, wholeheartedly. The public support for true reform is there, the main obstacle is the Centrist shitlibs who would much rather get campaign donations from the medical insurance industry then make the country a better place for our children.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:32
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Toobly posted:One ghostwriter is just writing all the beefs *Beeves
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Nov 8, 2019 22:33
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Prester Jane posted:When the short-term stopgap makes the problem worse in the long run... I don't disagree, but unfortunately as another poster pointed out it was never a matter of tackling the fundamental issues and solving them completely or passing ACA.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:34
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Prester Jane posted:When the short-term stopgap makes the problem worse in the long run... I'm actually interested: how did obamacare end up making the problem worse than it would have been if nothing was done?
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Nov 8, 2019 22:36
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Prester Jane posted:So what you're saying is that better things aren't possible? That we should just be happy with whatever compromises and half measures we get because actually fixing the problem was never a "serious possibility"? Note the past tense in the comment you're quoting there. They're sayin, there *wasn't* support there, not that there *never is*. I think that's a reasonably accurate statement, there wasn't widespread support for a total overhaul. Why is certainly partially up to a failure of leadership, but Obamacare changed the way that people interact their insurance and stripped out some of the shell games used in the industry, such that more people are cognizant of how the system really fucks them now.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:40
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FlamingLiberal posted:Kanye is clearly not well, but this latest thing with pandering to Christians is a very obvious ‘prosperity gospel’ level grift Risking perpetuating kanye chat, but this is just a trend in hip hop in general. Chance is making semi gospel rap right now too. I'd imagine it's a Chicago thing at its core, but I'm not that well versed in hip hop history to know exactly why.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:43
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Ice Phisherman posted:the leading theory is that he poses like this because it looks good for the cameras to keep from looking fat, but when caught from any other angle he's posing like he's the front half of a centaur. He's also wearing lifts because he's nowhere near his claimed height, which is probably affecting his posture badly
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Nov 8, 2019 22:44
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CaPensiPraxis posted:Note the past tense in the comment you're quoting there. They're sayin, there *wasn't* support there, not that there *never is*. I think that's a reasonably accurate statement, there wasn't widespread support for a total overhaul. Yeah Obamacare largely seems to have just made clear the problems that already existed, and were hidden behind creative policy writing and denial of coverage.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:46
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Shbobdb posted:Kanye is an amazing musician, the best in the last 20 if not 30 years. He is also deeply mentally ill. Just because Bowie hosed kids doesn't mean his music isn't amazing. Note Block posted:Bowie's music is also hard to listen to when you're a victim of child abuse and it's hard to remain friends with people who are his fans, knowing what he's done. It's hard to listen to Kayne when family members have the same disorders he does and you see the same behavior in him as them. This is pretty much how I feel. Death of the artist as a philosophy is just so we can enjoy media without having to experience the guilt by thinking who it came from. That art wasn't produced in a vacuum. What horrifies me me is the impulse to ignore abuse from our favorites can extend to people we personally know. The question can then be reasonably asked if someone who enjoyed art from a questionable source, would they enjoy it just as much if they knew the artist personally? And then ask yourself why that matters at all. Now imagine your local pastor or sports coach. Handsome, funny, charming, but he's discovered doing something horrible. His good standing in the community does shield him or her from social harm even to the point where people will cover for them thinking that it's not true or that "it's not that bad". Bowie's music is amazing. He's also a credibly accused child molester and rapist. Both are true at the same time. Choosing to embrace one and not the other enables a culture that gives passes to a certain type of charismatic monster that you'll find anywhere there is prey to be had and people to cover for them.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:47
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah Obamacare largely seems to have just made clear the problems that already existed, and were hidden behind creative policy writing and denial of coverage. Also I think people really undersell how important making it so that you couldn't be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions was, considering how just about drat near anything could be considered a pre-existing condition. EDIT: To clarify, Obamacare isn't great but it is so much better than what we had, and I definitely think we need M4A or something like it to replace it. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 22:48
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Prester Jane posted:So what you're saying is that better things aren't possible? That we should just be happy with whatever compromises and half measures we get because actually fixing the problem was never a "serious possibility"? Before Obamacare, a woman I know had lost her insurance when her husband was fired literally a week before his retirement benefits would have let him keep their insurance through retirement. She had a life threatening condition. They could have fought it in court, but if he didn't sign the paltry deal they offered, they'd have given him nothing, meaning he'd not be able to afford the lawyer fees or their mortgage, and until the years a court case would take, they'd have nothing to live on. So he signed away most of this contractual rights to get a half year of coverage and a fraction of his benefits. I don't know if that was the best choice for them, but that was the reality they were living in. Then suddenly there was Obamacare, she got health coverage, and she got to live. Better things are possible, and Obamacare was one of those things. Medicare For All is better still, and maybe we can get it now. But then? Absolutely not. And complaining about what happened a decade ago isn't taking our current situation seriously.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:49
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Prester Jane posted:Pelosi finally starting impeachment proceedings is good, however Pelosi voting to fund child death camps is bad. And to be honest with you, Pelosi voting to fund child death camps is so bad that I am don't give the slightest goddamn what else she's done in her life, she's morally incompetent and needs to be thrown out of leadership/her legacy tarnished as a warning to figure generations. (You don't support/enable child concentration camps under any goddamn circumstances whatsoever- end of discussion.) I think you fundamentally misread everything I typed. I don't need you to tell me why Pelosi is bad, I need you to see the hypocrisy of supporting her while noting her flaws and your inability to do the same regarding any number of other topics, in this case, Obamacare. You shifting to making it an argument about Pelosi as if I was defending her actions at all is endemic of why your posts are so tiring to engage with. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 22:49
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fool_of_sound posted:I'm actually interested: how did obamacare end up making the problem worse than it would have been if nothing was done? Then you have to argue that ACA made that worse than it would have been without it. Not sure where I fall on that, but we know insurance companies jacked up premiums in certain states to drum support for overturning ACA.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:50
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CaPensiPraxis posted:Note the past tense in the comment you're quoting there. They're sayin, there *wasn't* support there, not that there *never is*. I think that's a reasonably accurate statement, there wasn't the widespread support for a total overhaul. And again my argument is that the public is and was behind true reform, the only reason there was "not enough support" was because of Centrist shitlibs who are opposed to anything that interrupts the flow of donations from the Indus surance industry. We didn't get true Health Care reform because centrist leadership would not accept it, not because it wasn't needed or because the public support wasn't/isn't there. fool_of_sound posted:I'm actually interested: how did obamacare end up making the problem worse than it would have been if nothing was done? Forbes posted:
The root source of the problems in our Healthcare System is the parasitic health insurance industry. As a result of Obamacare this parasite has gotten much larger, much stronger, and even more deeply embedded into the system - when it comes time to destroy the parasite the damage inflicted on the vulnerable will be much worse than it otherwise would have been. (And that is assuming that we kill the parasite before it kills the host, which is not at all a given at this point.)
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Nov 8, 2019 22:50
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Prester Jane posted:I feel pretty confident that a number of oosters here believe that the only real failing with Obamacare was that Republicans/Trump sabotaged it. (That's why they're trying to quibble about the definition of the word "reform" rather than address the substance of my arguments.) That's stupid, and my guess is that you, like many others, are lacking in enemies to argue with on this board and need to make disagreements to be bigger than they are. The consensus on the ACA on here has been, for years, that it was compromise trash and a bandaid at best. There's some disagreement on whether it was the best thing that could be passed the time, or that something better was possible and democrats refused to push it, but that's a different discussion.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:51
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I don't like Kanye's support of Trump but let's not go crazy acting like it's in the same ballpark as raping children. Bowie is dead to me in more ways than one
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Nov 8, 2019 22:52
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Prester Jane posted:The root source of the problems in our Healthcare System is the parasitic health insurance industry. As a result of Obamacare this parasite has gotten much larger, much stronger, and even more deeply embedded into the system - when it comes time to destroy the parasite the damage inflicted on the vulnerable will be much worse than it otherwise would have been. (And that is assuming that we kill the parasite before it kills the host, which is not at all a given at this point.) now square that with the fact that many people GOT TO LIVE because they couldn't be denied health care (the very idea of which started this whole derail because it set you off) Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 22:52
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just in awe at the idea of comparing bowie with a dude who made one and a half good records ten years ago
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Nov 8, 2019 22:52
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ozmunkeh posted:just in awe at the idea of comparing bowie with a dude who made one and a half good records ten years ago It is a bit unfair, IIRC Kanye hasn't raped anyone.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:54
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Bottom Liner posted:I think you fundamentally misread everything I typed. I don't need you to tell me why Pelosi is bad, I need you to see the hypocrisy of supporting her while noting her flaws and you inability to do the same regarding any number of other topics, in this case, Obamacare. I do not perceive the hypocrisy here. I've never denied that Obamacare improve things in the short-term, my entire contention is that it was a long-term net loss for a variety of reasons (primarily because it only made the underlying problem worse). I supported Pelosi taking one specific action while noting that she still needed to go regardless. I can support the short-term improvements that resulted from Obamacare while noting that it only made the underlying problems worse in the long-term. There is no hypocrisy or inconsistency here.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:55
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FuturePastNow posted:He's also wearing lifts because he's nowhere near his claimed height, which is probably affecting his posture badly Are all of his sons wearing lifts because their dad is wearing lifts and so they all stand like doofuses to keep him from looking bad by standing out? That is hilarious and sad and telling.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:55
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ozmunkeh posted:just in awe at the idea of comparing bowie with a dude who made one and a half good records ten years ago Good point, Kanye is head and shoulders above Bowie as a person, legit unfair to Kanye.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:56
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah Obamacare largely seems to have just made clear the problems that already existed, and were hidden behind creative policy writing and denial of coverage. The project of american health insurance hasn't been to make healthcare equitable or even accessible but to make disasters "affordable" in the sense of keeping them below a disaster threshold nationally. Affordable is turning up the heat on the pot slowly instead of dropping people in boiling water, because then they would scream [change laws, riot, etc.]. Not allowing insurance to quietly adjust on a per person basis to calibrate for how much a group's voice is likely to matter; and not to stigmatize insurance discourse by tying it wholley to deeply hosed american work ethic ideals is/was an important political milestone for where we are now. Even though yes, a big stupid part of the ACA is outright life support for an evil system, that system was (and still is) attached like a parasite to the lives of millions in a bid to keep itself going.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:56
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Mystic Mongol posted:Better things are possible, and Obamacare was one of those things. Medicare For All is better still, and maybe we can get it now. But then? Absolutely not. And complaining about what happened a decade ago isn't taking our current situation seriously. Mere complaining about the past, sure, but learning from it so as not to be fooled again by the same poo poo, is probably a good idea.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:57
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fool_of_sound posted:I'm absolutely being genuine here. There's a notion among liberal and leftist Christians that the highly sanitized version of the new testament that can be construed as promoting values that they agree with as being the real philosophy of the bible. It's where you get the 'jesus was a socialist' meme from. In fact, while there are some aspirational ideas in the new testament, most of it is badly removed from historical and even biblical context in order to argue their points. My argument is basically that liberal christianity isn't any more authentic than fascist evangelism; both cherry pick and creatively interpret their respective passages to lend credence to their pre-existing political philosophies, then bicker over the 'correct' interpretation rather than the merits or lack thereof of the underlying philosophies. This reads a lot like malevolent refereeing in place of an actual argument, and you aren't supporting your assertion that ends up essentially both-sides-ing the moral, practical and textual implications of how left and right-leaning denominations interpret scripture. To clarify my argument - I believe that modern American white conservative evangelicalism and its subsets like fundamentalism, dominionism and preachers of the prosperity gospel ('evangelicalism' from here on out) is no longer a Christian denomination, but something different entirely that draws from the same religious text but does not share in the same social traditions as other denominations or even itself as it has existed historically; that is so intertwined in political identity that one can be observed as a stand-in for the other; and should therefore, from a social or anthropological perspective, be considered its own religion entirely. To respond to your initial assertion, I fail to see how leftist Christians, like those who practice Christian socialism, are sanitizing very unambiguous text like: Lev 19:13, 18 posted:You shall not oppress your neighbor...but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Deuteronomy 10:18–19 posted:He [the Lord your God] executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. Love the sojourner therefore; for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. Paraphrasing: Matthew 25 .. posted:37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ . James. 5:1–6 posted:Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up for treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the labourers who mowed your fields, which you have kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Meanwhile, contemporary evangelical leaders like Falwell, Graham, etc constantly take biblical verses out of context to support their own politics and lead their followers to the conclusion they have predetermined. I don't feel like I need to support this with evidence but here's a fun article anyway. fool_of_sound posted:In fact, while there are some aspirational ideas in the new testament, most of it is badly removed from historical and even biblical context in order to argue their points. I'm not sure what you mean here - there are aspirational parts of the text of the new testament that... are removed from biblical context? Do you mean aspirational thoughts or arguments based on ideas in the new testament? If so, there are people much smarter than me who have researched and written on this stuff, so probably best to direct you there. To zoom out a bit, I'm not sure the argument over who is more correct in their biblical interpretations even matters in this debate. Not all denominations self-identify politically; it's truly a more recent phenomenon that Evangelicalism has become so closely interwoven in our political fabric - particularly with conservatism via Falwell's moral majority - which has evolved evangelicalism to become more than religious practice but a cultural identity marker that encompasses theology, politics, ethnic and racial identity, and socio-economic status. The political left doesn't really have a corollary. 'Progressive Evangelicalism' is completely a reactionary movement to the ultra-conservative and ultra-political phenomenon of modern American evangelicalism; it is defined by its opposite and exists because of it. A good thought experiment would be to consider evangelicalism as it exists in the US today and ask if it can continue to exist without Christianity. I argue that it can, and as the movement's leaders like Falwell and the Grahams and Robertson and Osteen continue to hitch their wagons to the demagogic cults of personality and inch closer to purestrain fascism, are. I am not the only one that feels this way.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:58
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There Bias Two posted:I have this posture because I have a neuromuscular condition. It can happen when your back is compensating for weak core/lower body muscles. Given that his sons stand this way as well, I wonder whether they might have something hereditary. It's cultivated, he does it because he's really fat and thinks this pose hides his huge gut.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:58
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Bottom Liner posted:now square that with the fact that many people GOT TO LIVE because they couldn't be denied health care And how many more will be harmed when the system collapses because it was never reformed? I'm not denying that weren't people helped or had their lives improved by Obamacare (in many cases significantly), my argument is that in the long-term it only made the problems worse- because it never actually addressed the root problem. My other argument is that the only real obstacle to something better than Obamacare was the Centrist shitlibs (who need to be run out of office on a rail). The public support for something better than Obamacare is and was there, the only true obstacle was the centrist incrementalists in elected office at the time.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:59
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Why is it so hard to accept both that: -Obamacare is just a heritage foundation compromise that got passed because blue dog dems couldn't be swayed to support a single-player option. -Also saved many, many lives because it prevented people from being kicked off healthcare for bullshit reasons and expanded insurance options -We should continue to fight for MFA as a replacement for Obamacare This forum has long since driven out/banned anyone who would actually be against expanded healthcare and I struggle to think of anyone left posting here who is against MFA. So all we're left with is arguing with each other over pedantic details (as a previous goon also noted).
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Nov 8, 2019 22:59
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