USPOL Fall: Biden the hand that feeds you

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL Fall: Biden the hand that feeds you

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

The Puppy Bowl posted:

There's a difference between uncomfortable and a hospitalizing assault. If we make explicit racism a capital offense like 40 percent of the country is going to die.

Oh, no, brother fox, please don't throw me in that brier patch.

Mystic Mongol fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 10, 2019

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:11

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:24

T. Bombastus: Feb 18, 2013

BarbarianElephant posted:

I am worried. I do think that if the revolution people here want, I and my family would be on the wrong end of it, because I’m entirely the wrong sort of leftist.

Scared as hell that my family is going to be purged in a Poster's Revolution when they find out I voted for Hillary in the 2016 general

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:12

Problematic Soup: Feb 18, 2007

I give zero and a half shits about some racist shitbag old lady. I feel bad that the dude that hosed her up is probably going to have his life ruined. I�m out of fucks to give about people who have turned a blind eye and especially actively engage in perpetuating suffering of marginalized groups.

https://medium.com/@SonofBaldwin/let-them-loving-die-c316eee34212

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:13

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Ice Phisherman posted:

Only a few people would die before people got the message and shut the gently caress up. There's not going to be some holocaust against racists. That's ridiculous. They're the ones that do holocausts.

History shows us that is not the case. People don't stop doing the things you dislike because you hurt a few of them. You have to keep on hurting them, and hurting them worse.

And yes, leftists have done mass executions in history. Stalin, who?

Saying "By definition anything my side does is right" is how you get monsters.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:13

Party Plane Jones: Jul 1, 2007; by Reene; Fun Shoe

Let�s move on from this please.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:14

Ice Phisherman: Apr 12, 2007; Swimming upstream
into the sunset

Alkydere posted:

That woman represents a poison in our society that many fooled ourselves was gone. I know I did.

Same. Not any more.

Really wished that they would've resolved it with a Yu-Gi-Oh duel and got all of her life points blown away, but that's not how life is sometimes.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:14

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

[ooops]

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:14

1glitch0: Sep 4, 2018; I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SHE BELIEVES THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS CHANGED MY LIFE #HUFFLEPUFF

Party Plane Jones posted:

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1193379012745322496?s=20

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:18

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

1glitch0 posted:

What I find interesting is that this thread is generally all for punching Nazis, and that Seattle Nazi gif of that Nazi getting punched the gently caress out, and the Richard Spencer gif of him getting punched in the face (someone please repost both of those), but somehow this is the line where violence is bad. Is it because she's a woman and not a dude? Or because she's older? I'm pretty sure the guy didn't think her entire body would shatter like glass. If the Seattle Nazi had hit his head really hard and bled out would it have not been good? I get proportional response, but I'm sure not where the general line in this thread lies.

In my opinion, she deserved it and it sucks he's going to go to jail for a long time for it, which sucks, but the only sympathetic figure in this story is him.

No one wants to see someone's mom get hosed up, that's just human. It's regardless of where you stand on how much violence she had coming her way

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:25

Dammerung: Oct 17, 2008; "Dang, that's hot."

Ice Phisherman posted:

Putting people in a box forever is not justice. It is revenge. I'd say that the best that can be achieved is not revenge.

I think that the very idea stripping people of their freedom forever can even be considered justice is a sickness that should be combated. That in order to curb our cruelty, we must accept that some acts are inherently cruel. There is no justice in imprisoning a person or killing a person. The act is to remove them from the ability to do more harm, which is necessary, but this act should not be confused with justice.

The only shot at justice in removal from society, helping a person understand what they have done, causing them to internalize their guilt and then be reintroduced back into society as a better person. That process could be considered justice. Simply dumping someone in a box forever is not justice. That is a sad thing.

I agree with this completely, so long as it is accompanied by appropriate and meaningful ways to provide resistutions to those affected by what they did. I think this goes in line with what you mentioned earlier, with regards to this mentality of punishments needing to be as harsh as possible out of an inherent societal need to be tough on crime. It almost seems like the idea is that making the perpetrator as miserable as possible is the only way/enough to attain justice, and that really is something that worries me. I don't necessarily want to hurt anybody in the Trump administration, but I do want to be certain that we work toward making amends for victims of their policies, change those policies so that this never happens again, and at least prevent the individuals responsible from ever hurting anybody else again.

I did also see the post about ending the discussion of the recent incident. I apologize if this is a continuation of the discussion and can delete it immediately if that is the case!

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:26

FizFashizzle: Mar 30, 2005

1glitch0 posted:

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

That's exactly what it would be.

Nunes and Jordan just chasing down ridiculous conspiracy theories and leaking it so they can build a narrative that this is ACTUALLY about figuring out corruption with the DNC and Biden.

Schiff is handling this is in such a way that's A.) completely consistent with the rules MADE BY REPUBLICANS and B.) immune from GOP and Fox News fuckery.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:37

Thaddius the Large: Jul 5, 2006; It's in the five-hole!

1glitch0 posted:

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

They�d probably ask about some brunch in 2012 where she was photographed with Hunter Biden and Hillary Clinton and whether that was the moment they planned Benghazi. Doesn�t have to be tethered to reality, just so long as they can demonstrate the Democrats are testifying and therefore both sides are the same and this entire inquiry is a partisan sham. Logic is dead!

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:38

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-tns-bc-trump-womenvoters-20191110-story.html

Another story about "anybody but Clinton" voters turning into "anybody but Trump." It's mostly anecdotal but it goes to show lots of these folks are low information voters upset about the status quo and Trump's schtick isn't working that well for lots of white women

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:39

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

1glitch0 posted:

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

It's a good tactic because it muddies the waters about that secret server the Republicans are using to hide documents that put Trump in a bad light.

Both sides end up shouting at each other about "Servers" and the average guy has little idea of what they are anyway, and just tunes out.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:39

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

Slowpoke! posted:

That would be ideal but we are watching the opposite happen, even in tyool 2019

Like in Texas, where they are proposing to end elected judges. That sounds like a good idea, except they are doing it in response to Democrats winning back ground and limiting it to areas with more than 500,000 people. Effectively using an arbitrary metric to draw a racially divided line (urban areas skew towards minorities and Democrats). Effectively, the rural areas would keep their elected judges who campaign on being �tough on crime�, which is essentially a racist dog whistle, and urban areas get appointed judges by the Republican controlled state legislatures. And again, this is in 2019.

So I do feel a lot of mixed feelings about expecting these southern states to fix their own problems first and that will solve racism.

Oh definitely. It's a very difficult problem and certainly one that has seen as much regression as improvement in recent years. That being said, it's still much more promising than having people Clancychat about how great their anarchic vigilante world would be for vulnerable populations.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:45

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

1glitch0 posted:

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

They would try the kitchen sink approach to find *any* soundbite they could spin into something bigger.

Remember their currently flurry is over "making up a transcript." The fact that this is entirely loving lies (and Trump is claiming he put the 'transcript' out AFTER) is entirely irrelevant. Their fanbase is now latched onto that and spreading it everywhere they can to low information voters. One false word and they have new ammo.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:45

1glitch0: Sep 4, 2018; I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SHE BELIEVES THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS CHANGED MY LIFE #HUFFLEPUFF

FizFashizzle posted:

That's exactly what it would be.

Nunes and Jordan just chasing down ridiculous conspiracy theories and leaking it so they can build a narrative that this is ACTUALLY about figuring out corruption with the DNC and Biden.

Schiff is handling this is in such a way that's A.) completely consistent with the rules MADE BY REPUBLICANS and B.) immune from GOP and Fox News fuckery.

I was thinking they might actually ask Nancy Pelosi, "Is it true that you are a democrat?" And then just say checkmate and eat pizza.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:47

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Setting a precedent you can put a member of congress on the stand as a hostile witness is definitely not something either of those criminals has thought all the way through. Even graham was smart enough to realize what happens if he subpoenas Schiff.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:49

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

They haven't thought it through because that's not how trump works, but this is just his instinctual firing back. He always puts his accusers on trial.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:50

Ice Phisherman: Apr 12, 2007; Swimming upstream
into the sunset

Dammerung posted:

I agree with this completely, so long as it is accompanied by appropriate and meaningful ways to provide resistutions to those affected by what they did.

I agree. Through community service and loss of resources to the afflicted party. I can't really think of anything that would crush racism harder than to force racists to do service towards those that they feel are inferiors. Not just in a performative way, but to force the racist to view those they view as inferiors as people.

quote:

I think this goes in line with what you mentioned earlier, with regards to this mentality of punishments needing to be as harsh as possible out of an inherent societal need to be tough on crime. It almost seems like the idea is that making the perpetrator as miserable as possible is the only way/enough to attain justice, and that really is something that worries me. I don't necessarily want to hurt anybody in the Trump administration, but I do want to be certain that we work toward making amends for victims of their policies, change those policies so that this never happens again, and at least prevent the individuals responsible from ever hurting anybody else again.

Personally I view prison as a kind of sublimated slavery or perhaps human sacrifice. Sublimation is a big word most people aren't familiar with, so I'll define it right quick.

quote:

In psychology, sublimation is a mature type of defense mechanism, in which socially unacceptable impulses or idealizations are transformed into socially acceptable actions or behavior, possibly resulting in a long-term conversion of the initial impulse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(psychology)

So imagine human sacrifice becomes animal sacrifice becomes smaller animals becomes symbolic sacrifice. Through ritual, people take those ugly urges that are no longer considered socially acceptable and transform them into socially acceptable actions to resolve emotional tension.

I view the tough on crime narrative to be a part of this process. At one point, African Americans used to be lynched, whipped and raped. Over a long, LONG process, slavery became less and less socially acceptable. It was a process that took centuries, but eventually most people were able to accept that slavery was bad outside of the South. Even in the South there was a huge push from theologians to launder slavery as an ideology to whites. Several protestant churches split over the slavery question, which is why we have Southern Baptists for example. It was so contentious that we had a war over it. That system of slavery became a kind of feudalism. White supremacy was still in full force, but the lynchings were now extra-judicial. The violence was still state sanctioned, but it was with a nod and a wink. Enter Jim Crow, where that racial hierarchy was legally proscribed. There was a place for everyone, though that system was horrible. That was defeated.

This is a simplification, but I don't want to write a huge new post after writing one so soon, but I think it serves the point I'm trying to make. We see a very slow decline in the brutality over centuries, but the racism has never truly went away. It's just in a process of continually morphing into something socially acceptable. I see mass incarceration as an evolution of this sublimated desire to feel racially superior and do violence. Whippings, beatings, lynchings, rape, neo-feudalism, legal racial hierarchy, it's not acceptable anymore. It's become further ritualized, coded and hidden from plain sight of those who aren't directly afflicted. Now prison is becoming less and less acceptable. And I honestly don't think that racists know what to do after mass incarceration fails. They still have that impulse, but there are times after defeats where racists reorganize and rethink about how to make their racism socially acceptable once more.

They're currently in a period of disorganization because their narratives are being challenged in a way that they can't defend. They're not supposed to defend it. It's coded, hidden. You were never supposed to notice in the first place. When consciousness rises and people look up and say, "Hey, that's hosed up, why are we doing this?" then the racist has basically failed. Especially when large numbers of people achieve political consciousness around what they're doing.

I think that what we're seeing though is both the urge to further ritualize racism into something socially acceptable once more and also the fascist impulse to pull off the mask and declare what they were already doing all along. They want to dance and laugh and live out their innermost desires. Pretending is emotionally unsatisfying. They want to be racist shitbags in public and get away with it. They want to assert their dominance. Trump's ascendancy is considered to be their ascendancy by proxy. And I think that there is a real fear that if they don't achieve dominance now that they may lose it and I think that white supremacy is under real threat of being damaged in a way that's completely unrecoverable, because what's next after mass incarceration? I don't think what's next would satisfy the white supremacist as much as mass incarceration ever did.

Sublimation from what I've read doesn't happen without social pressure and time. Usually a lot of pressure and a lot of time. What we're dealing with are those original racist impulses from slavery and every time the current status quo fails, it mutates into something socially acceptable. Mass incarceration is just the latest expression of this centuries long trend.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 10, 2019

# ? Nov 10, 2019 18:58

Spiffster: Oct 7, 2009; I'm good... I Haven't slept for a solid 83 hours, but yeah... I'm good...; Lipstick Apathy

�You put me on trial!?! NO YOU ARE ON TRIAL!!!� Is the extent of his thinking. He�s not even on trial ATM because the trial doesn�t start until it�s in the senate�s court. The impeachment is just setting up for that.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:01

Ershalim: Sep 22, 2008; Clever Betty

Spiffster posted:

�You put me on trial!?! NO YOU ARE ON TRIAL!!!� Is the extent of his thinking. He�s not even on trial ATM because the trial doesn�t start until it�s in the senate�s court. The impeachment is just setting up for that.

If we think Piaget's theories are correct, then it's probably fair to say that most conservatism is concrete operational in nature. They have a tendency to understand that there are rules, but not necessarily why they exist. So since he's "being treated unfairly" the way to make it fair is to make other people do the same thing he has to deal with. It's the kind of childlike forthrightness that appeals to his base, too. The complicated poo poo is tiresome, so he "cuts through it" in the same way that their mental shortcuts do.

I think that's a large part of his appeal.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:06

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Party Plane Jones posted:

Let�s move on from this please.

whoops, missed this, sorry.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Nov 10, 2019

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:09

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

My psychological coping mechanism is submarine sandwich.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:09

BigBallChunkyTime: Nov 25, 2011; Kyle Schwarber: World Series hero, Beefy Lad, better than you.; Illegal Hen

https://twitter.com/TIME/status/1193590342211264512?s=19

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:15

Shifty Pony: Dec 28, 2004; Up ta somethin'

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

They haven't thought it through because that's not how trump works, but this is just his instinctual firing back. He always puts his accusers on trial.

He's also a conspiracy nut and totally buys into whatever "Biden is corrupt" bullshit he's been getting fed by people like Rudy.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:22

Dick Trauma: Nov 30, 2007; God damn it, you've got to be kind.

Fellow posters please state your replacement value in American dollars.

https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1193434377780441089

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:33

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

it's us, the supposedly smart leftists who are all in on justifying extrajudicial violence as long as we can say the victim deserved it

time to get our lynch on

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:44

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

Taerkar posted:

My current employer is currently in the 'Start cutting headcount' response to a funding crisis. This is of course after years of letting an entire section of this company spend money without concern.

I'm job hunting again.

Hah, my employer announced record revenue and pay cuts on the same day (pay cuts were announced 'in confidence' just before the celebratory announcement of number went up). Got a few interviews lined up, though.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:45

T. Bombastus: Feb 18, 2013

oxsnard posted:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-tns-bc-trump-womenvoters-20191110-story.html

Another story about "anybody but Clinton" voters turning into "anybody but Trump." It's mostly anecdotal but it goes to show lots of these folks are low information voters upset about the status quo and Trump's schtick isn't working that well for lots of white women

I can't read this because I've already hit my limit of free Trib articles for the month, but it is fair to say that these are better described as "anybody but the incumbent" voters? Obviously Clinton wasn't the incumbent, but she definitely represented a continuation of Obama policies.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:47

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Lord Stimperor posted:

Hah, my employer announced record revenue and pay cuts on the same day (pay cuts were announced 'in confidence' just before the celebratory announcement of number went up). Got a few interviews lined up, though.

My employer has had several record-breaking revenue days recently and there's been both a couple major departures and a cold reception to hiring and alleviating our tough schedules and workloads. gently caress capitalism.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:49

Ershalim: Sep 22, 2008; Clever Betty

Lord Stimperor posted:

Hah, my employer announced record revenue and pay cuts on the same day (pay cuts were announced 'in confidence' just before the celebratory announcement of number went up). Got a few interviews lined up, though.

I think that's the normal practice for publicly traded corporations -- when profits haven't grown at a rate above expected year on year, every year, there's a direct incentive for bean counters to cut costs via laying off people and reporting unprecedented high returns. Combined with the short shelf-life of most CEOs, the nature of their pay (often through stock options), and the general disdain for the non-rich, it's the most simple, elegant solution for a sociopath. The long-term health of the company and the people hurt by the lay-offs aren't considered, because such things would be "above their pay grade" I suppose.

We should probably incentivize companies to be less poo poo if we're not going to actually place restrictions on what power and influence they have. But maybe that's just me.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:51

1glitch0: Sep 4, 2018; I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SHE BELIEVES THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS CHANGED MY LIFE #HUFFLEPUFF

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

it's us, the supposedly smart leftists who are all in on justifying extrajudicial violence as long as we can say the victim deserved it

time to get our lynch on

No, you're right, the black dude making minimum wage should just stand there at his job while having racial slurs screamed in his face. But don't call the police because he would be shot or blamed for the incident. So just take it, I suppose. We must be civil after all.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:52

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

oh yes, not fracturing peoples skulls = ~ D E C O R U M ~

you got me coach

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:54

Ice Phisherman: Apr 12, 2007; Swimming upstream
into the sunset

Dick Trauma posted:

Fellow posters please state your replacement value in American dollars.

https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1193434377780441089

Doesn't understand blood money. It's not a sacrifice unless it's personal and heartfelt. Trump is unwilling to do either. It's just other peoples' money and money presented in that way is insulting.

100% deadass serious. Blood money is an ancient institution. One of the Illiad's core themes, if not the core theme was about what happens when you give into animal rage instead of deferring to social institutions like blood debt.

A life is not worth money, but with tact and care and personal sacrifice we can sort of pretend. There is no tact. There is no care. There is no sacrifice. It's obvious that Trump doesn't get this, but he's so trashy and disconnected that he doesn't hire someone to do this for him so he doesn't generate yet another scandal.

Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Nov 10, 2019

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:54

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Party Plane Jones posted:

Let�s move on from this please.

Whoops, missed this, sorry.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 10, 2019

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:57

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

T. Bombastus posted:

I can't read this because I've already hit my limit of free Trib articles for the month, but it is fair to say that these are better described as "anybody but the incumbent" voters? Obviously Clinton wasn't the incumbent, but she definitely represented a continuation of Obama policies.

quote:

Donald Trump

President Donald Trump looks on during UFC 244 mixed martial arts fights on Nov. 2, 2019, in New York. (Evan Vucci / AP)

1 / 21

One of the essential storylines of the 2016 presidential election was the hidden Donald Trump voter: the person who wasn’t surveyed by pollsters or comfortable telling friends or family about who they thought was best to lead the country.

Three years ago, thousands of these Americans many working class, residing in the middle of the country helped deliver the most astounding electoral surprise in modern history. Now, as they review the Trump presidency a year before his reelection, some are showing signs of turning on conventional wisdom again.

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Heather, a local administrative assistant here who is married with a stroller-bound toddler, is still so embarrassed by her 2016 vote that she wasn't comfortable revealing her last name.

"I'm ashamed to admit ... but I'm of a more conservative bent and family. I just couldn't vote for Hillary. But I also thought there's no way Trump was going to win. This way, I could at least say, 'Well I didn't vote for her,'" she said. "I didn't think I was doing any harm."

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With viewers having partisan choices to watch Trump impeachment inquiry, TV may have a lesser impact than it did during Watergate »

While Heather isn't sharing her conversion far and wide, she's already decided "there's no chance" she'd vote for Trump again. "Heavens no," she said. "Trump basically turned me into a Democrat."

The 2020 presidential campaign has been engrossed in a debate over which demographic groups Democrats should devote most of their attention to in order to reclaim the White House. African-Americans in urban areas? Rural voters who flipped from Barack Obama to Trump? Newly emerging but unreliable young people?

inRead invented by Teads

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But the one pivotal group showing the most evident signs of splitting from the president are white working-class women, according to a review of polling data, focus groups and interviews with more than a dozen party strategists and voters like Heather.

It's these voters packed in eastern Iowa, central Minnesota, southwestern Wisconsin, northern Ohio and throughout Michigan who will wield outsize influence over Trump's 2020 fate. Republican pollster Patrick Ruffini calls these women the essential voter as it relates to the Electoral College.

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"If I could talk to one voter in the country, it would be a non-college-educated white woman," he said. "It's definitely the kind of voter Trump can't lose."

Trump carried non-college-educated white women by 27 points in 2016. They've been slipping away ever since.

Column: The ‘Whistleblower’ and Rep. Adam Schiff should be first to testify in Trump Impeachment Theater »

In the midterm elections, they were the hidden fuel behind the Democratic comeback. Exit polls showed white women both with and without a college degree shifted 13 points in the Democratic direction from 2016-2018. But white women without a college degree made up a greater percentage of the midterm electorate.

Democrats don't need to carry these voters in 2020, but they must chip away at the president's margins with them in battleground states.

As the impeachment process accelerates, it's white women without a college degree who are gradually warming to the idea that the president's time is up. Forty percent now favor impeachment, up 11 points from mid-September, according to an independent study in late October.

White working-class women make up nearly one-fifth of the presidential electorate, but are far from ideologues of any stripe. Broadly, they care more about their personal incomes than sweeping big-ticket proposals like the Green New Deal. Polls show they respond warmly to raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations and yet are still more likely than other groups to approve of Trump's economy.

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It was Trump's positioning as a populist that helped bring them into the Republican fold. Now, more say their wages aren't keeping up with the cost of living, leaving them open to other options.

White working-class men have largely stuck with the president through all of his travails from Charlottesville, Va., through the entirety of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation and the current embroilment of an alleged quid pro quo with Ukraine.

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But their female counterparts increasingly view Trump as divisive, impulsive and hostile.

"He's definitely lost people because of his rhetoric. There's no cause for it," said Corrie Torres, a teacher in Dubuque, Iowa, and Democratic voter. "I don't think people here will continue to buy into someone who is unkind."

How Mitch McConnell is managing impeachment and a fragmenting Republican response »

Driving northbound on Route 63 into Howard County, Iowa, there's a lone placard encouraging adoption on the right and a single pole with an American flag whipping in the wind on the left amid miles of corn fields and farmland. Howard has suffered from a population drain that's precipitated a broad-based consolidation of the schooling system and left local factories struggling to find qualified workers. Politically, it's also felt neglected.

But this cycle looks different. This swath of eastern Iowa is home to 31 swing counties that supported Obama twice before switching their allegiance to Trump the most of any state in the country.

The largely industrial region much like its neighbors in Wisconsin and Minnesota is home to a bastion of white working-class voters who have shown a penchant for choosing individual candidates over long-held party labels.

In Dubuque, the largest county in the area, Trump managed a 16-point shift to win it by just over 1 point. But in no place in the country was there a more dramatic swing than in Howard County, a sparsely populated area along the Iowa-Minnesota border. Four years after Obama's 21-point win, Trump carried it by 20 points in 2016, amounting to the biggest swing in the country.

April Cheeseman is a resident of Lime Springs (population: 477) who used her high school degree to land a job at an electronics manufacturing company in neighboring Minnesota. Trump was never an option for her in 2016, but Clinton repelled her as well.

So she cast her ballot for third-party candidate Gary Johnson, four years after supporting Obama.

This time, she's leaning towards caucusing for Pete Buttigieg next February because of his military service and student debt plan, but will likely support whoever Democrats nominate.

It's a dynamic heard over and over in these counties: 2016 votes were widely driven by a loathing of Clinton, even if they thought little of Trump.

"What I heard on the doors was: 'Hillary? Never Hillary. And even though Trump says stupid s---, he's not Hillary,'" said Laura Hubka, a sonographer and chair of the Howard County Democratic Party, who has endorsed Buttigieg. "I feel the same thing about (Joe) Biden here people are like, 'nope.'"

‘Everything else is made up garbage’: Fact-checking President Trump on impeachment »

Hubka has had her own fissures with the Democratic Party in Iowa, leaving it temporarily after 2016 due to what she saw as unresolvable infighting between the Clinton and Bernie Sanders factions. Yet she's becoming increasingly heartened about a political recovery, in part due to refocused attention on far-flung areas by 2020 candidates.

A June event in Cresco featuring Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar and now former presidential candidate John Hickenlooper was seen as a breakthrough in the secluded region.

"The candidates have been doing a better job of coming to rural areas, which they never have before," Hubka said, naming Buttigieg and Elizabeth Warren's campaigns as the two doing the most personal interaction in Howard.

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In Hubka's eyes, a victory in 2020 would be shaving off at least 10 points of Trump's 2016 margin in Howard County, an outcome that could endanger the president's ability to again carry Iowa's six electoral votes if it was replicated in surrounding counties.

Trump carried Iowa by 9 points in 2016, but there are already signs that it'll be closer this time. A recent New York Times/Siena College poll showed Trump's lead in the state falling to just a single point against Biden and three points over Sanders. But against Warren, Trump's advantage is 7 points.

"Iowans do want a change but they don't want a drastic change. They want something better but ... they don't want a complete liberal takeover," said Sarah Orwig, a Sioux City firefighter who has endorsed Biden. "(Warren) might just be a little too much, to tell you the truth."

As the polling numbers demonstrate, the profile of the eventual Democratic nominee will matter to these voters, as will the issues he or she chooses to prioritize.

Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf of Pennsylvania, who has said he will refrain from endorsing in the primary, expressed concern that the rigid ideological tests being put forward by candidates is not how most voters come to their opinions on policy.

"I don't think Pennsylvanians go for litmus tests. ... I think Pennsylvanians respond, and I think most Americans respond, to pragmatic things," he said. "There's nothing that is a litmus test, that you're either here or you're there."

While stopping short of criticizing any particular candidate, he added: "I've got to admit, I'm not real clear on exactly what each of the candidates means when they say Medicare for All."

Steve Grubbs, a longtime Republican consultant in Davenport, Iowa, is even more explicit about the type of Democrat who would present the greatest challenge to Trump in the Midwest.

"Buttigieg would be strong, (Amy) Klobuchar would be strong. Biden would certainly be stronger than Warren or Sanders," he said. "In Iowa, a northeast liberal is unlikely to sell well here. There is always some geographic bias."

It's this perspective that has fortified Biden's position as the national front-runner for the nomination, even as Warren and Sanders have conjured up more grassroots energy and the former vice president has lost ground in early nominating states.

Biden has sought to make white working-class voters a central part of his coalition. The "dignity of work" is a regular staple of his stump speech. The former vice president recently chose his hometown of Scranton, Pa., to hammer Trump for rewarding "wealth instead of work" in a county where just 27% of residents hold college degrees.

But he's had stiff competition in the Democratic primary for these voters. The latest Quinnipiac University poll showed Warren overtaking Biden with white working-class voters, with Sanders not far behind. Yet in a general election in Iowa, Biden and Sanders carry these voters, whereas Warren loses them to Trump.

For her part, Warren is making the opposite bet of Biden: That winning back these Trump voters requires a bold message underpinned by broad structural economic change. However, Warren still performs weaker against Trump than Biden in hypothetical general election polls in critical Midwestern states.

"She's made herself more plausible to working-class voters. I don't think it's that they love her now," said Ruy Teixeira, a senior fellow at the liberal Center for American Progress, who specializes in political demographics.

But Teixeira warned that if Warren did not walk back some of her most liberal positions as the Democratic nominee, it would prove to be a "significant vulnerability with white working-class women voters" who feel burned. They wanted to believe Trump's promises but now think "they've been sold a bill of goods," he said, making them more skeptical of grand promises.

"Either party, I think, is just pathetic," said Jackie Tallman, a Cresco, Iowa, resident who voted for Clinton in 2016 but is now leaning toward Trump as she's watched the Democrats endorse a litany of expensive proposals. "I never thought I would be ... but where's all the money going to come from?"

"Making all these promises and doing all this stuff for everybody," she said. "It's so unrealistic. It's a fantasyland."

And then there are Democrats like Cory Booker, who are sounding the alarm that an overreliance on white working-class voters in the Midwest risks ignoring black voters in places Milwaukee, Detroit and Philadelphia who didn't show up at the level Democrats needed in 2016.

"That's how we won as Democrats in 2008, 2012 and most recently in 2018," the presidential candidate said recently during a speech in Washington.

What's clear is that the Trump campaign has no choice but to keep white working-class women in the fold.

So it recently established an eight-member "Workers for Trump" advisory board that will lead an effort to train blue-collar supporters to phone bank and canvass neighborhoods. The double-pronged strategy is to highlight the administration's economic gains while tearing into the more polarizing parts of the Democratic agenda, including the elimination of private insurance through Medicare for All and of fossil fuels by implementing the Green New Deal.

A Trump campaign aide said that unions will be a critical target for this messaging and that educating them on the ramifications of the Democratic agenda will draw them back into the GOP camp.

Angela Tinsley, a single parent, truck driver and Teamsters member who is leading the Trump campaign's effort in Nevada, said the biggest obstacle to winning converts is overcoming the media environment.

"Unfortunately many of them have been misinformed as to President Trump's current record," Tinsley said. "When you say we have the lowest unemployment ... they are surprised by this, like they've never heard of it."

Tinsley acknowledged that "while not everybody agrees with his language ... the proof is in the pudding."

"Since Trump, I'm now receiving a tax refund every year," she said. "As a single parent, that's like a Christmas gift."

But back in Dubuque, Heather counts herself as someone who is already gone. She now describes herself as a "closeted Democrat" still surveying her options. Recently, she showed up at the city's historic brewing company along the Mississippi River to catch a Buttigieg campaign event.

As she's done more research on her own, she's determined she opposes tax cuts for the rich and favors a government safety net for the neediest, but finds Warren and Sanders too extreme.

"My family would have an absolute fit if they knew I were here right now," she said standing at the periphery of the Buttigieg event as the sun set. "Republican has been my identity for a long time, so it's kind of weird to be on the other side."

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Buttigieg showed up 50 minutes late, leaving some onlookers antsy, due to the Monday Night Football game, which was approaching kickoff.

Still, she departed toward the parking lot with Buttigieg's sticker affixed to her blouse, undecided on exactly which Democrat to caucus for, but settled on the type of candidate she wanted.

"He seems like a nice, down-to-earth family guy. I like that," she said of Buttigieg. "He's the antithesis of Donald Trump.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:57

Terminal autist: May 17, 2018; by vyelkin

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

it's us, the supposedly smart leftists who are all in on justifying extrajudicial violence as long as we can say the victim deserved it

time to get our lynch on

I need to speak to your manager right now.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 19:58

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

1glitch0 posted:

I'm curious what the republicans would even ask them. I'm sure they'd come up with something, but their entire narrative is nothing. This is beyond Benghazi which at least happened. Like what are they going to ask Biden? "Where in Ukraine is the DNC server with Hillary's emails?"? It's like asking where the elves who kidnapped Bigfoot is holding him. I know it's to just muddy the waters, but what could you even ask Nancy Pelosi?

Just non stop variations of "Why do you hate America?"

# ? Nov 10, 2019 20:00

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:24

Party Plane Jones: Jul 1, 2007; by Reene; Fun Shoe

Party Plane Jones posted:

Let�s move on from this please.

# ? Nov 10, 2019 20:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL Fall: Biden the hand that feeds you

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