|
ANIME AKBAR posted:Yeah I'm also wondering what it was about this latest episode that caused his support to collapse so quickly. It's because the military launched a loving coup, hth.
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 05:02 |
|
|
"Its so weird how fast President Bernie's support collapsed after Jeff Bezos drove an Abram's tank into the oval office. Oh well, just another restoration of democracy."
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:58
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:The military forcing the president to resign is the literal definition of a coup Is that what really happened? The military "forced" him to resign? Like 100% honest here, I was only aware of this shitshow as of a couple hours ago, and am still sifting through conflicting reports. But so far this doesn't look like a military coup. More like the military declined to back him up amid enormous civil unrest.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:58
|
|
|
loving acting like the military demanding anything doesn't come with the threat of violence
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:58
|
|
|
Somaen posted:https://www.proekt.media/investigation/morales-rosatom-eng/ Given that the opposition has apparently burned quite a few ballots, I'm not sure they have the moral high ground here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
ANIME AKBAR posted:Is that what really happened? The military "forced" him to resign? He got on a plane and left the country right after resigning due to protests that have been going on for less than 24 hours. Which is a massive signal that this is a coup.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
Somaen posted:https://www.proekt.media/investigation/morales-rosatom-eng/ How dare he (reads this article and pinpoints the most damning accusation)... hire social media consultants.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:00
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Given that the opposition has apparently burned quite a few ballots, I'm not sure they have the moral high ground here. Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:01
|
|
|
Social media consultants -> RUSSIAN -> morales dictator election fraud. Everything makes sense now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:01
|
|
|
ANIME AKBAR posted:Is that what really happened? The military "forced" him to resign? The military literally told him to resign after he won an election. You should go to sources other than right wing expats.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:02
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? The opposition burned ballot boxes to make it impossible to fully recount the election, thus giving a null space for them to claim its illegitimacy
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:02
|
|
|
Somaen posted:https://www.proekt.media/investigation/morales-rosatom-eng/
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? The right wing opposition knew they lost the election, they burned the ballot boxes to get rid of the evidence that Morales won.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:He got on a plane and left the country right after resigning due to protests that have been going on for less than 24 hours. Which is a massive signal that this is a coup. The protests have been going on for 3 weeks, Evo resigned because first he lost the support of the police, then the Central de trabajadores (the main workers Union in Bolivia) and finally he lost the support of the army. Please at least watch 5 minutes of news before posting gringo tarado.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:04
|
|
|
LMAO y'all are disengenious hypocrites (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:04
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? The point was a) to create a justification for a coup and b) to make it impossible to audit the election afterwards because any audit would show that they loving lost and hence destroy the aforementioned justification for the coup. Hence the rightwingers turned to violence, as they're wont to do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:06
|
|
|
zocio posted:The protests have been going on for 3 weeks, Evo resigned because first he lost the support of the police, then the Central de trabajadores (the main workers Union in Bolivia) and finally he lost the support of the army. None of that changes the fact that this is a coup. Evo first invited foreign observers to audit the results, then agreed to new elections, then resigned after his family was attacked and the military encouraged him to do so. loving gusanos coming out of the woodwork today.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:07
|
|
|
zocio posted:The protests have been going on for 3 weeks, Evo resigned because first he lost the support of the police, then the Central de trabajadores (the main workers Union in Bolivia) and finally he lost the support of the army. Fair point, I'll shut up and let people more knowledgeable discuss this
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:08
|
|
|
ANIME AKBAR posted:Why would Russia think Morales would be friendlier to foreign state-owned business than the opposition? They have been friends for a while, Morales like Maduro and Chavez before him have close ties to Russia, especially in the energy sector. From what I understand opposition is usually much more US company friendly
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? Love to respect democracy and the rule of law by burning ballot boxes. I'm sure if trumpists did it in 2020 liberals would be just as sanguine about it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
The guy who won the election lost the support of the army, who forced him out. Also this isn't a coup. These two statements are coherent together.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
I don't really like the precedent set by Evo Morales here but let's get the core of things. In a lot of South American countries it is not odd for Presidents to be ran out of office by protesting groups often ones who get violent. We just had an example in Ecuador where Lenin Moreno was almost ran out of office by left leaning protests. In Chile we have groups of protestors of all the political spectrum also trying to run a president out or office. Both groups got violent. In Chile the state responded quite violently. In Ecuador not as violently. Things were still tense. The protestors did kindap groups of government officials and stormed Congress. There have been many presidents ran out of the presidency in Ecuador over its history. Same with Peru, famously the fall or Fujimori came after the revelation of the Montesinos tapes and massive protests and he fled the country to go to Japan. I feel that if the president of Ecuador or Chile had resigned the thread would have celebrated it. Generally the thread has supported those protestors. But in the case of Evo, the thread has firmly been against it. And this is where I have an issue. You can not say you support Democracy and say that protests forcing a president out of the presidency is not Democracy in one situation and not the other. That's not being consistent. Either it's always bad, or it never is. If it's only about Democracy than, as I have been informed by my own understanding of protest movements (this is what Democracy looks like) Protests are the physical manifestation of direct Democracy, and thusly are legitimate methods to despose of an unwanted leader. If you don't agree with that, that's fine. But don't say it has to do with you supporting Democracy. Democracy does not get to be redefined a million times until it fits your perfect imagined vision that makes you comfortable with it. That draws a parallel to how libertarians redefine capitalism a million times until it fits their own little perfect image they are comfortable with (that's not really capitalism, that's crony capitalism.) Democracy is, with all it's flaws, what it is. If you don't like the results then you need to come up with a better system. But in the case of vast protests ending the rule of a leader I would say that matches perfectly with what I envision Democracy is. Whether that is ok or not, is a complete other discussion. I am sure someone will say this situation is different due to the inteference of the military. That is a argument you can make. But I feel that it is not that odd, that if a Nation features constant unending unrest due to mass protests against a leader, that the military would intervene and request they resign for the good of stability. Because essentially the military is a branch of government and no one wants constant unrest. I am not 100% sure how involved the military is or the political leanings of military commanders in Bolivia. If anything similar to Venezuela keep in mind that their military allies strongly with the PSUV and the left. I would think given Evos strength in Bolivia he would have put military leaders in charge who were similar. I feel if the leader were a right winger and a similar situation occurred with the military requesting they step down, which has happened in other nations such as Ecuador and Peru, people would support it here. ThanosWasRight fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Nov 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:10
|
|
|
joepinetree posted:None of that changes the fact that this is a coup. Are you alright with the first two? I haven't developed an opinion on whether he should have resigned pending new elections (and the military taking a hand in it is, uh, not great, and I'm worried about what the interim government is going to look like now) but I think I'm okay with a redo in and of itself - it's annoying to reward the opposition protesters for destroying ballots but it seems like a reasonable remedy and, I mean, if Morales was going to legit win the first election he can legit win a second, right?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:11
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Okay yeah, the first count round he just barely squeaked past the runoff bar so that's what I would have expected if any fuckery was suspected; do you / the thread have any idea whether the audit / report is reasonably credible? When Carlos Mesa was forced to resign in 2005 he was replaced with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who held office only long enough for new elections. I suspect that's one possible path forward.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:11
|
|
|
ANIME AKBAR posted:Is that what really happened? The military "forced" him to resign? do you believe there's non-violent implications to be found when, right after you win an election, the military literally marches through the street into your office and demands you resign? Do you think there's any universe where that's not a violent act?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:13
|
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:I don't really like the precedent set by Evo Morales here but let's get the core of things. What the gently caress is this poo poo? "There were protests against Lenin Moreno, therefore the opposition in Bolivia setting fire to ballots, to the houses of Morales family, and the army telling him to resign are the same thing." Like, how the gently caress do you reconcile in your minds Morales winning an election THIS MONTH with "Democracy is, with all it's flaws, what it is. If you don't like the results then you need to come up with a better system?" Despite Pinera and Lenin Moreno using the military and the police to kill dozens of protesters, no one has set the houses of their families on fire, the army isn't forcing them to resign, and they are still in power. This is no poo poo one of the dumbest posts I have ever read here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:14
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:do you believe there's non-violent implications to be found when, right after you win an election, the military literally marches through the street into your office and demands you resign? Do you think there's any universe where that's not a violent act? Yes if you don't take into account the three weeks of Nationwide protests it sounds bad but you do realize events actually have context and larger occurings that give them some amount of difference between each other.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Are you alright with the first two? The people who couped out Morales aren't going to let him win, ya dummy. They're not even going to let him run. ThanosWasRight posted:I don't really like the precedent set by Evo Morales here but let's get the core of things. Buddy, you're literally arguing that context doesn't matter and that civilian control of the military shouldn't be a thing here. Do you think that people won't notice or something. E: ThanosWasRight posted:Yes if you don't take into account the three weeks of Nationwide protests it sounds bad but you do realize events actually have context and larger occurings that give them some amount of difference between each other. OK now you're just doing a bit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Given that the opposition has apparently burned quite a few ballots, I'm not sure they have the moral high ground here. I keep waffling on what the remedy should be there. We don't want that to be a standard strategy by the side that thinks it lost, but "well guess we can't do a recount now, that means I definitely won" doesn't sit entirely well with me either.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:16
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? To prevent an honest recount. Remember that's how this shitshow nominally started. There were discrepancies between ballots cast and reported results, which is why the count was originally paused while election officials investigated. Morales was OK with a recount even though the result was him winning on first round, opposition wasn't (probably because recount would have confirmed the result) so they opposed the request for international observers for the recount and instead had their thugs start destroying ballots. Conveniently that leaves an unresolvable asterisk on Morales' victory so the opposition has an excuse to escalate further, up to the current military coup.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:16
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Are you alright with the first two? Yes? A reminder that the only reason there was an audit was because Morales invited it. And if the audit found anything questionable, sure, have a do over. But this is a coup. This is a coup in clear and uncontroversial ways. Anyone trying to deny that is trash whose opinions can be immediately dismissed. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:16
|
|
|
Bolivia has the world's largest deposits of lithium salts. For the green new deal boondoggle these deposits have to be made available to rapacious western interests at an agreeable price: https://twitter.com/jake_edgar_/status/1193651715683184640?s=20
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:17
|
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:Yes if you don't take into account the three weeks of Nationwide protests it sounds bad but you do realize events actually have context and larger occurings that give them some amount of difference between each other. the protests that involved burning ballot boxes to be sure the recount couldn't happen?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:17
|
|
|
joepinetree posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo? It all comes down to whether you believe he really won the election or not and there have been many elections that have resulted in massive protests following them from both sides. See Rojas Pinilla vs Pastrana in the Colombian national elections of 1970 which gave rise to protests and the formation of the infamous M-19, precursor to all South American Bolivarian groups.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:18
|
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:I feel if the leader were a right winger and a similar situation occurred with the military requesting they step down, which has happened in other nations such as Ecuador and Peru, people would support it here. This is 2019 and politics on the internet is a sport. It's not about principles, but about the side chosen to support. The average poster's inner thinking is something like: it's irrelevant what Bolivians think or support, Morales was a leftist, our guy, and it is bad that he lost. Those other guys you mentioned are right-wingers and therefore everything is good if they lose and we win. Hope this clears it up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:19
|
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:It all comes down to whether you believe he really won the election or not and there have been many elections that have resulted in massive protests following them from both sides. It's hard not to believe he was legit when the opposition responded by burning ballots to ensure there could not be a recount. Like, what the gently caress is this logical pretzel you're tying yourself into, what makes you think it WASN'T legit, you have to provide some pretty strong and undeniable proof of malfeasance to justify this clown show of a coup.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
Somaen posted:It's not about principles, but about the side chosen to support. Correct, politics is not about principles, but using the levers of the state to determine who gets what from the government. sexpig by night posted:It's hard not to believe he was legit when the opposition responded by burning ballots to ensure there could not be a recount. Like, what the gently caress is this logical pretzel you're tying yourself into, what makes you think it WASN'T legit, you have to provide some pretty strong and undeniable proof of malfeasance to justify this clown show of a coup. Tampering with ballot boxes preemptively because the other side is doing it is a galaxy brained take, even for election loving liberals.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:And this is where I have an issue. You can not say you support Democracy and say that protests forcing a president out of the presidency is not Democracy in one situation and not the other. That's not being consistent. In all fairness to them, some of the posters like Caps Lock Broken have already come out as explicitly against Democracy. So at least in this instance he's being consistent.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:21
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:the protests that involved burning ballot boxes to be sure the recount couldn't happen? You do realize they believe the ballot boxes were stuffed and that is why they burnt them right? I do not argue that it was the right course of action, but angry protestors are not groups that tend to do very smart things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 05:02 |
|
|
ThanosWasRight posted:It all comes down to whether you believe he really won the election or not and there have been many elections that have resulted in massive protests following them from both sides. Morales invited external audit, announced new elections, and even announced a new selection process for the electoral courts. He was then forced out by the police and the army. Lenin Moreno and Pinera had the army and the police use live ammunition on protesters. That you think that both of these are similar examples of democracy in action either shows that you are poo poo posting or that you are the dumbest motherfucker alive.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2019 00:21
|
|