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ThanosWasRight posted:Yes if you don't take into account the three weeks of Nationwide protests it sounds bad but you do realize events actually have context and larger occurings that give them some amount of difference between each other. Nah, even with that context it sounds bad because it's a military coup.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:22
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Squalid posted:In all fairness to them, some of the posters like Caps Lock Broken have already come out as explicitly against Democracy. So at least in this instance he's being consistent. The democracy of the army asking the president of the country to resign or else.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:22
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unwantedplatypus posted:Fair point, I'll shut up and let people more knowledgeable discuss this Well don't I just feel like an rear end in a top hat now, sorry for calling you names, it was just that your whole post was wrong, but your attitude in light of it is very refreshing and should be everyone's attitude going forward, don't stop posting, just be more informed when doing so. To the other guy calling me gusano, this soft coup (everyone in Latin America knows exactly what I meant when I said that the army announced that it didn't had Evo's back anymore) is exactly what I think Chile needs to get rid of Piñera, the AFPs (mandatory Private retirement fund managing companies that are basically useless and make retirement a very grim afair in Chile) and most of the excesses of Neo liberalism.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:22
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zocio posted:Well don't I just feel like an rear end in a top hat now, sorry for calling you names, it was just that your whole post was wrong, but your attitude in light of it is very refreshing and should be everyone's attitude going forward, don't stop posting, just be more informed when doing so. Soft coup is what happened to Dilma. The army telling you to resign is a coup, period.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:23
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joepinetree posted:Yes? A reminder that the only reason there was an audit was because Morales invited it. And if the audit found anything questionable, sure, have a do over. Sure. I'm just crossing my fingers that the outcome isn't terrible and the new election is prompt, fair, and ideally won by Morales (or a substitute leftist if he gets screwed out of running as a result of this). fake edit: actually based on what I know so far about the report, one remedy might be to not have a full new election but instead to just assume "okay, maybe all 350k votes or whatever were invalid, let's have the runoff that would have happened without them"
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Nov 11, 2019 00:24
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ThanosWasRight posted:You do realize they believe the ballot boxes were stuffed and that is why they burnt them right? Ok...yea no poo poo, they didn't say 'we are doing this to remove any non-violent options!!!!' while they were doing it. Ya got me there. Why did the government agree to more elections and outside oversight then?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:24
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I know this is kind of tangential to what's going on politically, but w/r/t Lithium and its necessity for green energy technology, is there a way access the Lithium that 1) Doesn't ecologically devastate the environment around it and 2) Allows Bolivia to retain the wealth gained from the sale of these materials?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:24
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Somaen posted:Could it be that these violent protesters burned the boxes as they believe the election lacks legitimacy? What is the implication here, the opposition stuffed the ballot boxes and burned them to cover up crimes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
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Nov 11, 2019 00:24
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Squalid posted:In all fairness to them, some of the posters like Caps Lock Broken have already come out as explicitly against Democracy. So at least in this instance he's being consistent. Your principled love of electorialism and democracy begins and ends with right wing comprador governments in South America. ThanosWasRight posted:You do realize they believe the ballot boxes were stuffed and that is why they burnt them right? Why burn them if they were stuffed? Why not go to the media?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:24
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The opposition in Bolivia just as Venezuela strongly believe there is ballot stuffing involved so a recount alone was never going to make them happy. Also I'd remind people there is absolutely no way to prove a ballot box has been stuffed after the fact.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Sure. I'm just crossing my fingers that the outcome isn't terrible and the new election is prompt, fair, and ideally won by Morales (or a substitute leftist if he gets screwed out of running as a result of this). lol in what universe do you think any leftist candidate won't get a bullet in the dome from a gun with a CIA price tag still on it. Do you think the loving military does a coup like this and then just lets the leftists win fair and square after?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:26
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ThanosWasRight posted:The opposition in Bolivia just as Venezuela strongly believe there is ballot stuffing involved so a recount alone was never going to make them happy. so you're saying no matter what the opposition would never be happy with non-violent solutions to this meddlesome leftist 
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Nov 11, 2019 00:26
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zocio posted:Well don't I just feel like an rear end in a top hat now, sorry for calling you names, it was just that your whole post was wrong, but your attitude in light of it is very refreshing and should be everyone's attitude going forward, don't stop posting, just be more informed when doing so. To be completely fair to you, I kinda have a kneejerk reaction based upon my own government's involvement in Venezuela and Brazil. I'll be more considerate in the future
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Nov 11, 2019 00:26
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Lightning Knight posted:lol bolivia making the case for why left wing governments either become authoritarian or get overthrown, what a goddamn disaster. I remember 15 years ago when Evo was elected and how hopeful the future seemed Then it turned out he liked being president a little too much gently caress him
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Nov 11, 2019 00:28
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I remember 15 years ago when Evo was elected and how hopeful the future seemed You, uh...you seem to be suggesting that Evo not adhering strictly to term limits makes him unusual among Latin American leaders... Or that that’s somehow the worst thing he could have done.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:31
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Lightning Knight posted:Christ we suck lol.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:32
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joepinetree posted:The democracy of the army asking the president of the country to resign or else. I'm not sure what you are suggesting but Caps Lock Broken was pretty explicit about rejecting democracy as a concept generally, and not just in this instance. Personally right now I think it's probably more likely than not Morales did win the election, although I'm not very certain. Also everyone here keeps emphasizing the role of the army in this. Why isn't anyone talking about Central Obrera Boliviana, COB? It's weird that everyone here is just ignoring that the largest federation of unions in Bolivia, previously a major Morales ally, turned on him even before the army. This isn't just the opposition turning on him -- his coalition of supporters collapsed too.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:33
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Morales was fine even by the sanctimonious standards of liberals looking for any excuse, but it turns out liberals have no real principles and will drop the mask instantly and claim that military coups are in the interest of democracy.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:33
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Seriously though, why did his own cabinet and the biggest union turn against him? efb: Squalid posted:Also everyone here keeps emphasizing the role of the army in this. Why isn't anyone talking about Central Obrera Boliviana, COB? It's weird that everyone here is just ignoring that the largest federation of unions in Bolivia, previously a major Morales ally, turned on him even before the army. This isn't just the opposition turning on him -- his coalition of supporters collapsed too.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:34
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sexpig by night posted:do you believe there's non-violent implications to be found when, right after you win an election, the military literally marches through the street into your office and demands you resign? Do you think there's any universe where that's not a violent act? Any photos or video of the military marching into his office?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:35
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Squalid posted:I'm not sure what you are suggesting but Caps Lock Broken was pretty explicit about rejecting democracy as a concept generally, and not just in this instance. Ah, no need for elections then.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:36
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Majorian posted:You, uh...you seem to be suggesting that Evo not adhering strictly to term limits makes him unusual among Latin American leaders... I honestly tuned out of politics around that time, after he won, and then Obama won and I was like “welp, great job Humanity, civilization is solved!” Then Brazil got worse, PRI won again in Mexico, the whole Venezuela thing, trump won, and now I’m like ... both sides bad? All politicians are terrible This whole left vs right thing is such a load of bullshit
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Nov 11, 2019 00:38
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Any photos or video of the military marching into his office? you're a joke
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Nov 11, 2019 00:38
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ANIME AKBAR posted:In a vacuum, yeah, that sounds like a military coup. But it sounds pretty disingenuous to describe the situation in such black and white terms. when the military politely suggests that you resign for the good of the nation, when the cops have already mostly flipped and you're having trouble with your own supporters, that's pretty  joepinetree posted:Ah, no need for elections then. so I think there might be some confusion on at least one of our parts, aren't new elections still on the agenda?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:39
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I honestly tuned out of politics around that time, after he won, and then Obama won and I was like “welp, great job Humanity, civilization is solved!” Screen capping this one
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Nov 11, 2019 00:40
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Norton the First posted:Seriously though, why did his own cabinet and the biggest union turn against him? I don’t see how this is a gotcha, if the army is signalling it will forcefully remove the president why wouldn’t they abandon him out of self-preservation? But to be clear it’s not about Morales or his merits as a person, it’s not up to the army to do this and it’s bullshit that they did.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:43
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THS posted:Screen capping this one If I said something stupid (which is extremely in character) I’m curious what it was, if you feel like pointing it out
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Nov 11, 2019 00:44
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GreyjoyBastard posted:when the military politely suggests that you resign for the good of the nation, when the cops have already mostly flipped and you're having trouble with your own supporters, that's pretty An election that will presumably not include Evo, who at the very least was the frontrunner the last time around
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Nov 11, 2019 00:44
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t see how this is a gotcha, if the army is signalling it will forcefully remove the president why wouldn’t they abandon him out of self-preservation? the unions actually abandoned him before the army. I'm not sure about when the cabinet resigned.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:45
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Squalid posted:the unions actually abandoned him before the army. I'm not sure about when the cabinet resigned. Right, but it's not difficult to imagine a scenario in which the army contacted the union leaders beforehand and said, "We're doin' a coup; call on Morales to resign or you're hosed."
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Nov 11, 2019 00:46
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GreyjoyBastard posted:when the military politely suggests that you resign for the good of the nation, when the cops have already mostly flipped and you're having trouble with your own supporters, that's pretty any new elections will not involve anyone who's sympathetic to the past government, no. Like there may be some token 'literally who' people but no they will not allow the actual main figures who would support an agenda against the capitalists who supported this nonsense.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:47
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https://mobile.twitter.com/jonleeanderson/status/1193636617459625985
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Nov 11, 2019 00:48
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t see how this is a gotcha, if the army is signalling it will forcefully remove the president why wouldn’t they abandon him out of self-preservation? Squalid posted:the unions actually abandoned him before the army. I'm not sure about when the cabinet resigned. I don't need a gotcha, I want to know what's going on. Majorian posted:Right, but it's not difficult to imagine a scenario in which the army contacted the union leaders beforehand and said, "We're doin' a coup; call on Morales to resign or you're hosed." Not difficult to imagine, but that's not how coups work. You can't just alert people ahead of time and give them the opportunity to mass in front of the tanks. Coups are actually difficult and often fail! e: and there's no way to express in advance that the whole military will support your unconstitutional move, because the leader of the military coup has no idea about that himself.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:49
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:If I said something stupid (which is extremely in character) I’m curious what it was, if you feel like pointing it out I don't think you're posting in bad faith or are a bad person or whatever, but that was a sixth grade level analysis. So: Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I honestly tuned out of politics around that time, after he won, and then Obama won and I was like “welp, great job Humanity, civilization is solved!” - why would you consider obama 'left' - what do you reckon happened in brazil? - why do you think trump won? Are there any material reasons you think things happened the way they did? Why immediately beeline for nihilism?
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Nov 11, 2019 00:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:when the military politely suggests that you resign for the good of the nation, when the cops have already mostly flipped and you're having trouble with your own supporters, that's pretty
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Nov 11, 2019 00:50
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gee isn't that weird how that happened, you'd think if the problem was just one Bad Dude they wouldn't be pushing out anyone who shares his side of the political spectrum too...
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Nov 11, 2019 00:50
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Norton the First posted:Not difficult to imagine, but that's not how coups work. It 100% is how coups work actually - you peel off parts of the opposition by buying off/threatening their leaders. Have a look at 1973 Chilean coup.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:51
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No one knows the exact details of what's going on in Bolivia right now or what will happen in the next few days, all you can go on is a sense of historical context and what the play always is when it comes to ringwing coups in South America. You have to be absolutely loving dogshit stupid, incapable of pattern recognition or object permanence, to reflexively want to hang back because you've heard that Evo Morales is no saint or whatever. Imagine being on the wrong side of history, every single time, and never questioning the basic assumptions that lead you to do that, and never holding yourself accountable for it. It makes sense if you have a career in the state department, but if you're just some idiot poster like the rest of us then you're being a shill for the imperialist in your head.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:51
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Majorian posted:It 100% is how coups work actually - you peel off parts of the opposition by buying off/threatening their leaders. Have a look at 1973 Chilean coup. Please don't be silly. There are dozens of examples from the last sixty years, and infosec is kinda important!
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Nov 11, 2019 00:53
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joepinetree posted:An election that will presumably not include Evo, who at the very least was the frontrunner the last time around Yeah I can see two avenues where that's the case - Morales' party concludes that he'll lose an election because of this fuckery, which is bad - The military / interim government / electoral officials nix him directly, which is Very Bad I have literally no idea how likely either of those is, I'm not particularly up on Bolivian government at the best and least chaotic of times.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:53
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