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wielder posted:Fair enough (although I wonder how much real or perceived party-affiliation or alignment plays a role in the campaigns for those judicial elections), but that still doesn't make them politically neutral. For the simple reason that few human beings are. Pack it in folks, you've got subjectivity and are therefore incapable of governing.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:56
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wielder posted:Fair enough (although I wonder how much real or perceived party-affiliation or alignment plays a role in the campaigns for those judicial elections), but that still doesn't make them politically neutral. For the simple reason that few human beings are. wielder posted:I think they had already used that argument for Evo's previous term(s). Not for this current cycle.
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Nov 11, 2019 09:01
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wielder posted:It's pretty clear that this began as a legitimate protest movement but has transitioned to a coup. They haven't been subtle about it, but it still took people too long to notice. Honduras, Paraguay, Brazil, now Bolivia. Bloodthirsty sellout regimes always get excused because "stability=good" or because we can't upset the markets, and then any remotely progressive government gets dunked on for chewing with its mouth open, and the lanyards all vreak their arms patting themselves on the back over how democratic and principled they are.
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Nov 11, 2019 09:01
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Does tonight's news boil the blood? Or is it just me? I can't tell which side (the left or the right) has less dirt on 'em.
Grouchio fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 09:08
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reignonyourparade posted:So what, they've got just as much of a public mandate as the referendum does. Seems to me that the people of bolivia are in disagreement with themselves about the matter of term limits. Well, I looked up the last judicial elections in Bolivia and...it seems most of the votes cast were "null", apparently in protest over the judicial decision that abolished term limits. quote:LA PAZ (Reuters) - More than half the ballots cast in Bolivia’s judicial elections on Sunday were spoiled, or nullified, by voters, a sign that the opposition said showed dwindling support for President Evo Morales. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bolivia-politics/bolivians-spoil-ballots-in-judicial-vote-to-protest-morales-idUSKBN1DY2I5 Also, this is relevant to the partisanship question. Candidates were "pre-selected" by Congress: quote:The 96 candidates on the ballot were preselected by Congress, where Morales has a majority. Opposition leaders said the vote was a ploy to give Morales supporters control over the electoral court. EDIT: Admittedly, in light of the ongoing coup, this part of the discussion is mainly academic. wielder fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 09:09
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http://www.oas.org/documents/spa/press/Informe-Auditoria-Bolivia-2019.pdf Report on the legitimacy of the election results. tldr of the conclusion. quote:Conclusions of preliminary findings
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Nov 11, 2019 09:21
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To add a grain of salt here, the OAS is not a cut and dry reliable source of information on South American elections and inteference. The current head, Luis Almagro, is a willing collaborator with the US State Department and CIA. His unstated but rather transparent goal for the past two years has been to weaken revolutionary states to expose them to neoliberal "freedom." He's seen as a traitor and a sellout by his once political allies in Uruguay (they kicked him out of the party) because of how quickly he cozied up to American political and business interests.
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Nov 11, 2019 09:38
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Grouchio posted:Does tonight's news boil the blood? Or is it just me? I can't tell which side (the left or the right) has less dirt on 'em. It's left OP, hope that helps.
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Nov 11, 2019 09:47
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ChristWobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?s=09 Even if he was an authoritarian, how the gently caress can you justify him being replaced by a fascist dictator also lmao @ liberals itt going all  about pro-Evo protestors burning things. Democracy is asset insurance for the rich, and when the rich directly undermines a democratic election by, idk, couping the democratically elected president, it's only logical that the proletariat rebels against the rich by hurting them where they can feel it, ie. in their assets
Venomous fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 09:48
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RaffyTaffy posted:http://www.oas.org/documents/spa/press/Informe-Auditoria-Bolivia-2019.pdf Here's my report on the legitimacy of the OAS: "eat my rear end in a top hat like a milkshake" Pretty standard stuff, really. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2019 09:50
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The US provides over 60 percent of OAS' budget.
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Nov 11, 2019 09:50
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  Gotta say, I'm not seeing That the changes in the TREP trend were hard to explain and did not match the other measurements available from this. Looks a lot more like the rural votes came in late, which matches with what the NDI says in their guide to quick counts (https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/1417_elect_quickcounthdbk_0.pdf): quote:The second lesson learned is that, on election day, information flows into the data center at uneven rates from different regions of most countries. (See Figure7-2.) There is no mystery about why there are dramatic regional variations in information flows. Information from the capital cities nearly always arrives first,mostly because the communications infrastructure in capital cities is nearly always far better than in rural areas, and observer access to telephones is nearly always easier in capital cities than elsewhere. Information from rural and remote areas, by contrast, are usually the last data to arrive because communications infrastructure is typically poor, and observers often have to travel great distances to reach telephones or radios. These uneven regional distributions of information flows have both organizational and analytic implications.
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Nov 11, 2019 10:08
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love to defend a military coup because morales Was No Angel it is perfectly legitimate to dislike and oppose a politician, and i'm sure that morales was at least a little corrupt, but claiming that the poo poo going down now is in concordance with the will of the majority of the bolivian people seems speculative at best. idk about bolivian election infrastructure, but often in developing countries rural districts report their results late in the day (this being the opposite of more developed countries), and since morales' core constituency has always been the rural poor it might make sense that his reported results improve as the day goes on like, some degree of electoral fraud and ballot stuffing etc has probably bappened, because that's what happens when poor countries with hegemonic parties hold elections. none of this makes a military coup reasonable, especially considering morales' clear willingness to compromise. it's poo poo! it's all poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2019 10:09
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https://twitter.com/redlightvoices/status/1193816596848021504?s=09 https://twitter.com/redlightvoices/status/1193817597902499841?s=09
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Nov 11, 2019 10:10
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i'm concerned in the way angela merkel has consolidated her power
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Nov 11, 2019 10:16
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ANIME AKBAR posted:No it doesn't have to be one or the other. It just sounds extraordinary enough to justify more evidence than a couple twitter threads from people I don't know. I appreciate your input though. Well, besides, again, all the videos of them burning Wiphala flags and buildings associated with indigenous groups, Camacho was vice president of Unión Juvenil Cruceñista, the fascists pictured, back in 2002-2004. Something that, as shown if you Google their name and his together, is actually such common knowledge it shows up in shows up in a whole lot of the articles about him, even those favorable to him. It's not a secret. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 10:22
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Roland Jones posted:Well, besides, again, all the videos of them burning Wiphala flags, Camacho was vice president of Unión Juvenil Cruceñista, the fascists pictured, back in 2002-2004, something that, if you Google their name and his together, is apparently actually common knowledge since it shows up in shows up in all sorts of articles about him, even those favorable to him. It's not a secret. yeah but we all know fascist movements are never popular enough to sustain radical change
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Nov 11, 2019 10:24
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Hey at least the new "I'm a resident of *insert Central/South American country currently being couped* and want to tell you what's REALLY going on" poster was smart enough to use a fresh account this time. The last guy from the Venezuela thread forgot to purge his posts advertising his stream, in which you could clearly see he was a white guy speaking unaccented English living in a country that definitely wasn't Venezuela.
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Nov 11, 2019 10:24
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i say swears online posted:i'm concerned in the way angela merkel has consolidated her power Seeing as the CDU (a) are a bunch of right-wing authoritarians (b) have shored up support at the expense of leftist parties by being a bunch of right-wing authoritarians (c) will likely be the largest party in the next election, and probably the one after that (d) have an inordinate influence over EU economic policy, I'm going to have to say, this but unironically
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Nov 11, 2019 10:33
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I’m 100% on the this is a coup train but I’m still very leery of the way Morales got his term extensions because it’s classic South American strongman poo poo. Like with Venezuela it’s important not to give carte Blanche support to lovely regimes and while I don’t think Morales is lovely I do think his moves on democracy have been counter productive to a long term socialist movement. Centering power on the figurehead is a red flag and he should have allowed a smooth succession on the left because that’s an important part of democracy. His policies won’t survive him if he doesn’t and it seems likely now that the Bolivian left power structures are going to be black bagged because he left the door open to it.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:25
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Demiurge4 posted:I’m 100% on the this is a coup train but I’m still very leery of the way Morales got his term extensions because it’s classic South American strongman poo poo. Like with Venezuela it’s important not to give carte Blanche support to lovely regimes and while I don’t think Morales is lovely I do think his moves on democracy have been counter productive to a long term socialist movement. Centering power on the figurehead is a red flag and he should have allowed a smooth succession on the left because that’s an important part of democracy. they almost certainly would've done the coup anyway, this is going on an extremely flimsy pretext after morales offered another go at the election
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Nov 11, 2019 11:26
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Demiurge4 posted:I’m 100% on the this is a coup train but I’m still very leery of the way Morales got his term extensions because it’s classic South American strongman poo poo. Like with Venezuela it’s important not to give carte Blanche support to lovely regimes and while I don’t think Morales is lovely I do think his moves on democracy have been counter productive to a long term socialist movement. Centering power on the figurehead is a red flag and he should have allowed a smooth succession on the left because that’s an important part of democracy. Literally blaming Morales because the fash are fashing. Because they sure need an excuse to violently seize power and purge the left, yes sir. The real lesson here is that it doesn't really matter what any leftist third-world leader actually does, an excuse to remove them can always be manufactured and idiot liberals in the west will just eat it up with no critical thought whatsoever.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:31
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What I’m saying is that yes this is a coup and Morales did the right thing by allowing new elections but I’m unwilling to also defend his undemocratic actions just for the sake of left solidarity, that doesn’t help anyone.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:36
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Demiurge4 posted:What I’m saying is that yes this is a coup and Morales did the right thing by allowing new elections but I’m unwilling to also defend his undemocratic actions just for the sake of left solidarity, that doesn’t help anyone. He hasn't done any real undemocratic actions, this is a lie that's been fed to you to justify a fascist coup and that you're repeating like a goddamn rube hth.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:45
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excited to hear the explanation for why an actual nazi is being paraded around by the very legitimate opposition https://twitter.com/jmkarg/status/1193625910051790856 no big deal just an innocent defender of democracy tearing down indigenous flags and posing with a bible
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Nov 11, 2019 11:45
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hope this will be a lesson to any other leftist government, especially in latin america, to arm their supporters and also stuff the military with them
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Nov 11, 2019 11:47
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Demiurge4 posted:I’m 100% on the this is a coup train but I’m still very leery of the way Morales got his term extensions because it’s classic South American strongman poo poo. Like with Venezuela it’s important not to give carte Blanche support to lovely regimes and while I don’t think Morales is lovely I do think his moves on democracy have been counter productive to a long term socialist movement. Centering power on the figurehead is a red flag and he should have allowed a smooth succession on the left because that’s an important part of democracy. Like, are you also leery of the way term limits were initially included in 2009 constitution under threat of continuing violence from the right, a measure that was included to specifically target Morales rather than any principle of fairness? Because it's classic South American coup groundwork poo poo. How many constitutional handwringers are going to appear when the new government inevitably rolls roughshod over the Indigenous protections and barriers to privatisation also included in the 2009 constitution. This will also probably be "Morales' fault" for breaking the sanctity of the constitution or some other chud logic. Look at the soft coup in Brazil, Lula respected the term limits made a "smooth succession", stepped aside when he was the most popular elected leader in SA, and when his turn came around again and he was leading the polls, he was illegally jailed to prevent his candidacy.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:48
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Demiurge4 posted:What I’m saying is that yes this is a coup and Morales did the right thing by allowing new elections but I’m unwilling to also defend his undemocratic actions just for the sake of left solidarity, that doesn’t help anyone. Would you like to explain these supposed strongman or undemocratic actions? Hint: supreme court of Bolivia is elected, not appointed.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:54
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wielder posted:It's pretty clear that this began as a legitimate protest movement but has transitioned to a coup. The coup would obviously also have happened if Morales hafn't run. The handover of power from a popular leader that is associeted with massive social progress is an obvious time of weakness. The PT in Brazil got couped in such a situation. And Bolivia was basically the last uncouped leftwing government on the continent.
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Nov 11, 2019 11:56
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Is it correct that the supreme court based there judgement on the American Convention on Human Rights, especially the section that gives every citizen the right to stand for elected positions? And if so, is there anything about the Bolivian constitution that makes this a more valid argument compared to other South American countries or would that argument imply that term limits should be illegal for all signatories?
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Nov 11, 2019 11:56
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Cerebral Bore posted:Literally blaming Morales because the fash are fashing. Because they sure need an excuse to violently seize power and purge the left, yes sir. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2019 11:58
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Just woke up to this news. I still hoped Evo agreeing with new elections would convince the military to stay still. Welp Latin America in entering another dark age, it seems
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Nov 11, 2019 12:04
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Ornedan posted:Would you like to explain these supposed strongman or undemocratic actions? Hint: supreme court of Bolivia is elected, not appointed. Term limits are cool and good and allow for peaceful transfer of power, while keeping any one person from amassing too much power. Doing away with term limits is counter productive and the reasons why don’t why don’t really matter. A public referendum turned it down (narrowly, I know) and the Supreme Court being elected doesn’t really change the fact that. Again, it’s incredibly important for long term stability that transfers of power happen regularly and it allows a political organisation to exist around its policies and institutions rather than be tied to any one person. Morales seems like a decent person and I’m sure that in his mind this felt necessary to avoid what’s happening now. But I think he made a huge error in not fostering his movement independently of himself as a figurehead.
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Nov 11, 2019 12:05
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Dude please re-read his post and then your own and reflect a bit. Wipe the foam from your mouth and get a drink of water; you're probably very dehydrated. Oh yea sure I guess "left the door open" could refer to Morales' car door or something. Also, as a side note, when your argument has been reduced to something that can only possibly make sense due to some kind of unstated semantic pedantry, "u mad bro" and an absolute refusal to move beyond vague implications it's a p good sign that you're absolutely full of poo poo, hth. Demiurge4 posted:Term limits are cool and good and allow for peaceful transfer of power, while keeping any one person from amassing too much power. Doing away with term limits is counter productive and the reasons why don’t why don’t really matter. A public referendum turned it down (narrowly, I know) and the Supreme Court being elected doesn’t really change the fact that. You know what's kind of more important than term limits? Not being able to just simple referendum away human rights. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2019 12:06
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People are really both sidesing between a massively popular elected leader who freely offers to rerun an election if theres any doubt, and a military coup that kidnaps people
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Nov 11, 2019 12:08
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RottenK posted:hope this will be a lesson to any other leftist government, especially in latin america, to arm their supporters and also stuff the military with them Become Venezuela or die
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Nov 11, 2019 12:08
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Being president for life isn’t usually conducive to human rights 
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Nov 11, 2019 12:10
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Demiurge4 posted:Being president for life isn’t usually conducive to human rights can't believe that dictator morales has monstrously clung to power by getting more votes than the right wing opposition the nefarous tactic of actually improving lives of common people so they want to vote for you again instead of ransacking everything and selling it to western capitalists must stop
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Nov 11, 2019 12:13
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Demiurge4 posted:Being president for life isn’t usually conducive to human rights
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Nov 11, 2019 12:15
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Demiurge4 posted:Term limits are cool and good and allow for peaceful transfer of power, while keeping any one person from amassing too much power. Doing away with term limits is counter productive and the reasons why don’t why don’t really matter. A public referendum turned it down (narrowly, I know) and the Supreme Court being elected doesn’t really change the fact that. I mean, eh?  Any political system structured around presidentialism is inevitably going to be centered around the individual due to the individual being the place where formal power resides. Term-limits actually have a really crappy record here and there are reasons most functional democracies make do without them. It's also arguable that transfers of power aren't that that important for stability either, notable historical cases being countries like Sweden, united Germany and post-WW2 Japan. It's other factors that decide whether the political system can maintain legitimacy and resolve conflicts. Not that any of it matters now but the cure for person-centered politics isn't movements without figureheads or term limits nor really the constitutional courts that enforce them, it's strong parliaments. It changes the whole power dynamic.
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Nov 11, 2019 12:24
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