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I'm aware that this is a very steamy take but I'm extremely relaxed about left wing leaders using underhand tactics to remain in power. We tend to fetishise democracy for its own sake but as it is practiced what we end up doing is defending inherently flawed liberal representative democracy for its own sake. What I want is socialism, I'm not about to cry when socialists are a little flexible about the rules when it comes to an institution that might - and indeed naturally tends to - allow for the election of the right and the rolling back of socialist policy. Ensuring the continuation of that socialist society is far more important than 'respecting' some abstract democratic principle by standing by as violence - and right wing policy is by its very nature violent - occurs.
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Nov 11, 2019 12:58
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look at all the poo poo the tories have tried to pull and the republicans do pull to stay in power ffs
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Nov 11, 2019 12:59
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Tesseraction posted:This happened shortly after Russia announced he was a former MI6 spy. So likely this is a Russian revenge for being a thorn in Assad's side. Also does call into question whether he was doing it for altruistic reasons or to aid UK foreign policy in the region. i thought it was already well known he was a spook, i remember reading about him back in 2016. i think the location and timing is very interesting given both the WH and turkey's connections to al qaeda and recent developments in rojava. also the WH movie sucks too.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:01
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drat I hate it when I'm a video editor and I accidentally go into the archives to find footage from three years ago and accidentally splice it over the footage from the previous day when the Prime Minister turned up still pissed and managed to gently caress up everything he had to do. The British public are just dumb as gently caress.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:01
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Gonzo McFee posted:The British public are just dumb as gently caress. otoh it was like 48% Johnson 16% Corbs two weeks ago.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:07
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm aware that this is a very steamy take but I'm extremely relaxed about left wing leaders using underhand tactics to remain in power. Yeah what could possibly go wrong
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Nov 11, 2019 13:07
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Failed Imagineer posted:Yeah what could possibly go wrong [laughs in kulak]
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Nov 11, 2019 13:07
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Jose posted:look at all the poo poo the tories have tried to pull and the republicans do pull to stay in power ffs This is exactly it. These ghoulish fuckers play every dirty trick in the book, nobody bats an eyelid. The problem with picking socialism over democracy is that it's very easy to slip in to USSR territory... What we probably need is a mass education campaign but let's be honest, that's never happening unless we somehow get all the media on our side and just lmao how is that ever going to happen
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Nov 11, 2019 13:08
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Failed Imagineer posted:Yeah what could possibly go wrong Nothing worse than what would happen under a democratically elected right-wing government
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Nov 11, 2019 13:08
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Failed Imagineer posted:Yeah what could possibly go wrong tell us
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Nov 11, 2019 13:09
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ThomasPaine posted:Nothing worse than what would happen under a democratically elected right-wing government I'd be careful about stanning the USSR and China. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of good things that they did right off the bat, but it turned sour real quick. Nobody here needs me to provide examples.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:10
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gh0stpinballa posted:tell us no
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Nov 11, 2019 13:10
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i will give you a kit kat!
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Nov 11, 2019 13:11
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farage is pulling the brexit party out they are loving shook https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1193863731148668928
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Nov 11, 2019 13:12
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Rarity posted:Note to self: workshop marketable catchphrases so I can rake it in on merch royalties gh0stpinballa posted:i will give you a kit kat! I'll take 12% Rarity.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:12
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Miftan posted:I'd be careful about stanning the USSR and China. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of good things that they did right off the bat, but it turned sour real quick. Nobody here needs me to provide examples. Well I'm not stanning China because after Mao died they clearly fell to an internal counter revolution and started introducing right-wing policy despite their official 'communist' stance, so they are in practice a right-wing government. Good at trains though! USSR is a little more complex and yes went a little pear shaped but I would argue was the preferable alternative to the USA for the majority of its history. Definitely its collapse can't be read as anything but a tragedy.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:16
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm aware that this is a very steamy take but I'm extremely relaxed about left wing leaders using underhand tactics to remain in power. We tend to fetishise democracy for its own sake but as it is practiced what we end up doing is defending inherently flawed liberal representative democracy for its own sake. The issues with this is that you are relying on the elected people to stick to that stance. What happens when they go "Cool, we cant be removed anymore, time to go full on scorched earth"
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Nov 11, 2019 13:17
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ThomasPaine posted:Well I'm not stanning China because after Mao died they clearly fell to an internal counter revolution and started introducing right-wing policy despite their official 'communist' stance, so they are in practice a right-wing government. Good at trains though! I mean if the USA is your bar for how poo poo things are then most of the world gets pass - possibly even loving Israel.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:18
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It's notable that all the authoritarian 'communist' states are the ones that survive while the democratic attempts always end up with the leader being found in the woods having become suicidal and shot themselves in the back of the head several times.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:19
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Doccykins posted:farage is pulling the brexit party out they are loving shook the guardian saying he won't stand candidates in any seat the tories won in 2017
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Nov 11, 2019 13:19
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BBC posted:Brexit Party will not contest Tory-held seats Well, poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:19
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For those that signed up to the secret Momentum volunteering form - how long did it take to get a reply?
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Nov 11, 2019 13:19
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm aware that this is a very steamy take but I'm extremely relaxed about left wing leaders using underhand tactics to remain in power. We tend to fetishise democracy for its own sake but as it is practiced what we end up doing is defending inherently flawed liberal representative democracy for its own sake. Left-wing authoritarianism... good, actually? 
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Nov 11, 2019 13:20
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i think there are going to be a lot of piss off brexit party members with this announcement
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Nov 11, 2019 13:20
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Relying on the personal desires of unaccountable rulers to do socialism suggests a woeful lack of understanding of the source of socialist advocacy. You take it away from its democratic and decentralized origin and you simultaneously paint a big target on it to facilitate it being stopped dead in its tracks, while also encouraging the people you've made its executors to abandon it in favour of personal power.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:21
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sebzilla posted:Well, poo poo. What in the actual gently caress? Is this stupid?
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Nov 11, 2019 13:21
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Rarity posted:Left-wing authoritarianism... good, actually? Omelettes, eggs, etc.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:22
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ThomasPaine posted:Well I'm not stanning China because after Mao died they clearly fell to an internal counter revolution and started introducing right-wing policy despite their official 'communist' stance, so they are in practice a right-wing government. Good at trains though! Good thing nothing bad happened in China between 1949 and 1976
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Nov 11, 2019 13:23
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sebzilla posted:Well, poo poo. While this is not great, the question remains how many labour held con-lab marginals exist. If brexit party stand there we have a better chance of retaining. Also if they run in con-lib seats oh wait never mind I see my mistake there.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:23
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CyberPingu posted:The issues with this is that you are relying on the elected people to stick to that stance. What happens when they go "Cool, we cant be removed anymore, time to go full on scorched earth" Quite. It's not an easy problem to solve, though I'd argue that beginnings of a solution are to be found in party processes/internal democratic processes rather than state-level liberal democracy. Despite China eventually losing the plot completely, some of Mao's early innovations in organising (mass line etc) were pretty solid examples. Failed Imagineer posted:Good thing nothing bad happened in China between 1949 and 1976 Poor execution (lol) but largely the right idea mostly. Rarity posted:Left-wing authoritarianism... good, actually? Not you're getting the idea ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 13:24
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this is terrible news there is not actually a positive read on it
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Nov 11, 2019 13:25
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quote:Farage says last night he saw something that was optimistic. lmao what a loving used car salesman
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Nov 11, 2019 13:25
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Josef bugman posted:What in the actual gently caress? Is this stupid? Actually hard to say. It might piss off the Brexit voters elsewhere and lead to them not pulling so many votes from Labour (hopefully), but it's 100% good news for Tories in all their defences.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:25
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Another Person posted:this is terrible news there is not actually a positive read on it its really not that bad https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1193866238272950272?s=20 https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1193867372416917504?s=20
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Nov 11, 2019 13:25
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Failed Imagineer posted:Good thing nothing bad happened in China between 1949 and 1976 *turns up The Sun In The Sky Is Red until I can't hear you anymore*
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Nov 11, 2019 13:26
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poo poo to gently caress. Would sure be nice if our sensible centrist friends could do the same and only contest Tory seats.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:27
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Another Person posted:this is terrible news there is not actually a positive read on it As noted, if they concentrate on splitting the vote only in the labour held marginals that's not really a sure fire win imo, as they can't control whether they get tory voters or labour voters. Plus they're also telling all the people in the con/lab marginals that they have to pick between the tories and labour which... again might mean just giving voters back to labour. TBH unless farage can improve the brexit vote a lot they're not gonna be as big of a factor as I'd hoped either way.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:28
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They didn't exist in 2017 and we still got a hung parliament so I don't think it's that big a deal to be honest.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:29
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ThomasPaine posted:Quite. It's not an easy problem to solve, though I'd argue that beginnings of a solution are to be found in party processes/internal democratic processes rather than state-level liberal democracy. Its super hard to solve, the underlying issues are that whenever a party comes in, they spend a lot of time trying to undo what the last party did wrong (or right if you are the tories because why would they let anything good happen). The obvious thing is either make bills more difficult to pass or make them more difficult to be removed, however that opens up a whole other can of worms and if something horrendous gets through it means its staying there. FPTP needs to be ditched and it just needs to be a straight up and down vote, most votes wins death match (actually gently caress it, just have an MP death match).
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Nov 11, 2019 13:29
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Jose posted:its really not that bad it really is, actually my doorknocking experience is telling me that people voting bxp are primarily coming from the tories in recent tory gained seats. this makes it a lot harder for labour to take back lost seats in the west midlands, for example, where the brexit support is strong and where the big risk to the tories is nigel splitting their vote. i can count 15 seats where that really throws a spanner into things on us taking target seats.
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Nov 11, 2019 13:30
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