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Squalid posted:This might explain why protests broke out so quick and maybe suggests the OAS was acting irresponsible. However it doesn't really deal with any of the specific issues raised in the report. The report finds irregularities that may imply ballot stuffing for example. Like one issue the OAS found with the non-binding, unofficial preliminary vote counts? A bunch of them accidentally got included in the OFFICIAL, legal count: Were these tallies included instead of the official ones, or are they effectively double accounting? It should be a small matter to determine, especially since they know exactly how many there are, and therefore presumably are able to identify them individually. If they're double accounted, they could've subtracted them and presented an updated tally. If not, they could've identified any errors in the tallies themselves. However, they don't specify and did neither. It also doesn't say specifically that it was an accident, or if the interviews uncovered some kind of rationale, or lack thereof.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:38
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Squalid posted:what do you want me to admit. I'm not hiding my opinions, I'm just not that interested in talking about them. Squalid is a white nationalist literally salivating at the murder of indigenous people that will soon be coming from the coup mongers, same as with the Venezuelan coup, now get off his back.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:41
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Yeah I'm starting to see this narrative getting pushed by leftists affiliated with elite institutions. It's not just bots, it's also the uchicago smartypants crowd strawmanning "white tankies" It is incredibly common to have educated elites of Latin America be very left wing in terms of American politics and incredibly reactionary on Latin American politics. I personally know people who were deeply distressed by the death of Michael Brown, who teared up visiting the MLK memorial, and who think that the only way to deal with crimes in the favela is to let the police roam free and kill freely.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:45
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Cup Runneth Over posted:In order to call it fraud or ballot stuffing you must provide solid evidence that it was intentional and malicious. You have provided none, and what you have cited is a report released by a biased organization with an agenda clear to anyone who's familiar with it and its leadership. "Irregularities" of this sort are not unusual and do not imply a stolen election. The fact that Morales was openly and immediately willing to have a new election with international observers present strongly suggests he did not attempt to influence its outcome and believed he would be exonerated. There is more dubious election integrity in any US election, and the fact that you're so concerned about it when an unelected right-wing regime is being installed at gunpoint would make anyone suspicious of your motives. I'm not sure of the relevance of that twitter post -- this point from the OAS findings does not deal with the discrepancy between the preliminary and final vote tally. Rather it demonstrates a substantial problem with the potential power to change the election's result. You are right that it's wrong to immediately jump to the conclusion that this is fraud. Rather, it is the POTENTIAL of fraud of a magnitude to change the result of the election. In fact if there are flaws of this scale in US elections, they are expected to be rerun, as happened in one election in North Carolina where issues with absentee ballots were detected. If you have a suspicion about my motives feel free to ask. One reason You haven't heard me say much about the new regime being installed is that I do not understand what is happening in the Bolivian executive and legislature, so I have nothing to say about that subject. I'm not sure Bolivian leaders on either the left or right wing know either at this point. Mostly I just hope the violence will stop and there can be new elections. I liked this article from al jazeera describing some of the chaos. I think its interesting that there's a sharp break between Camacho and Mesa. It's not clear who is in charge of this coup: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/political-vacuum-bolivia-morales-announces-resignation-191111043447380.html quote:Morales, who had previously agreed to respect the OAS findings as binding, quickly announced new elections and a new electoral commission. Shortly after, Mesa embraced new elections but insisted that neither Morales nor his Vice-President Alvaro Garcia Linera should be allowed to run.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:47
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Golpistas are getting smarter and realizing they can appropriate social justice language to smother opinions contrary to the one pushed by corporate media and regime change NGOs.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:47
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GreyjoyBastard posted:
Ive got some great info for you quote:edit: between you and the gentleman compiling tweets and, you know, recent events, I get that you're conflating the opposition dickbags and the military They are willingly cooperating to achieve the same goals by the same methods.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:48
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RIP Syndrome posted:Were these tallies included instead of the official ones, or are they effectively double accounting? It should be a small matter to determine, especially since they know exactly how many there are, and therefore presumably are able to identify them individually. If they're double accounted, they could've subtracted them and presented an updated tally. If not, they could've identified any errors in the tallies themselves. However, they don't specify and did neither. It doesn't really matter so much at the moment, but the OAS report was nominally an initial / provisional one - I'd expect them to release a more detailed report in [???} days or weeks. 420 Gank Mid posted:Ive got some great info for you sure, i'm getting that impression, thus my apology to joe 
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Nov 12, 2019 04:48
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GreyjoyBastard posted:It doesn't really matter so much at the moment, but the OAS report was nominally an initial / provisional one - I'd expect them to release a more detailed report in [???} days or weeks. Right, it can be explained by a lack of time and an uh, abundance of chaos. I respect that. But it's also being given too much weight for what it is.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:52
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RIP Syndrome posted:Were these tallies included instead of the official ones, or are they effectively double accounting? It should be a small matter to determine, especially since they know exactly how many there are, and therefore presumably are able to identify them individually. If they're double accounted, they could've subtracted them and presented an updated tally. If not, they could've identified any errors in the tallies themselves. However, they don't specify and did neither. I'm not sure. In any case I don't think its the job of election observers to uncover the rationale behind irregularities. Instead they just verify that an election meets basic standards of accountability. Note they never say "we detected X fraud." Instead they just say "we failed to certify this part of the election process." uninterrupted posted:Squalid is a white nationalist literally salivating at the murder of indigenous people that will soon be coming from the coup mongers, same as with the Venezuelan coup, now get off his back. Cool, when I see people stooping this low I usually take it as a sign I've made a good argument. uninterrupted as absolutely no response to the points I've made, so instead he resorts to writing fanfiction. Presumably if he had had anything coherent to say, he'd have said it.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:53
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RIP Syndrome posted:Right, it can be explained by a lack of time and an uh, abundance of chaos. I respect that. But it's also being given too much weight for what it is. Given the fact that OAS has been caught throwing out valid election results in Haiti because they didn't like the incoming government their findings can be discarded the same way a post on freep would.
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Nov 12, 2019 04:54
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Squalid posted:I'm not sure what your specific criticism of the military is, as far as I'm aware the only way its gotten involved so far was by releasing a statement. Of course there must have been a lot of maneuvering in the background but there's no way for us to know what happened at this time. In crises like these when one part of the government is blatantly violating laws and norms there's never going to be an easy solution. Evil
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Nov 12, 2019 04:59
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Squalid posted:Cool, when I see people stooping this low I usually take it as a sign I've made a good argument. uninterrupted as absolutely no response to the points I've made, so instead he resorts to writing fanfiction. Presumably if he had had anything coherent to say, he'd have said it. ~whilst stroking himself raw to holocaust footage~ "I'm just asking questions, are you sure there's no blood in that matzo? I mean I'm sure those jews didn't help during WW2, why are you so opposed to debate? Really, 6 million doesn't sound kind of high?" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 12, 2019 05:00
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https://twitter.com/m_ebrard/status/1194088358009552903?s=19 There are days when I'm pretty proud of my country. I wonder how exactly they got him out.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:01
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Squalid posted:Cool, when I see people stooping this low I usually take it as a sign I've made a good argument. uninterrupted as absolutely no response to the points I've made, so instead he resorts to writing fanfiction. Presumably if he had had anything coherent to say, he'd have said it.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:03
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joepinetree posted:It is incredibly common to have educated elites of Latin America be very left wing in terms of American politics and incredibly reactionary on Latin American politics. I personally know people who were deeply distressed by the death of Michael Brown, who teared up visiting the MLK memorial, and who think that the only way to deal with crimes in the favela is to let the police roam free and kill freely. That's basically my father. Hates Trump with a passion, liked Obama a lot, thinks americans are crazy for wanting so many guns around and cries like a greek wailer watching Amistad.... ...and would vote for Satan Reborn over anyone from a labor party, has said in social situations that prison massacres are only bad because they don't happen every other day, and looked visibly uncomfortable when he saw I was dating a brown-skinned girl a couple of years back.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:04
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freeasinbeer posted:I am seeing a fair bit of folks complaining that western leftists are once again white mansplaining their political circumstances and this presents a bit more nuanced view then coup: It is very funny that this is on a site from an organization from Vermont, the 2nd whitest state in the US lol
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Nov 12, 2019 05:07
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Squalid posted:I'm not sure. In any case I don't think its the job of election observers to uncover the rationale behind irregularities. Instead they just verify that an election meets basic standards of accountability. Note they never say "we detected X fraud." Instead they just say "we failed to certify this part of the election process." At a minimum they need to know the severity of the irregularities they're reporting, or if they indeed are irregularities at all. And you've repeatedly pointed to passages from the report as evidence, so I think it's fine to pick it apart as such. If your point is simply that OAS said they could not certify the election, that's fine and noted. Also, did you read the WP page on the Mexican elections I linked to? Multiple western observers certified that, so we've an idea of where our expectations should sit more or less in order to avoid applying double standards!
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Nov 12, 2019 05:18
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if this is a coup then why are dozens of brand new twitter accounts saying it not a coup in the exact same wording? checkmate leftists.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:20
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I mean it does seem to be A Thing with these sort of events that there are american/european leftists on one side and people who live/lived in the country on the other side, in the context of online conversations like the one we're participating in ITT. The standard retort by the former whenever this is brought up by the latter is that the median Evo/Maduro supporter is significantly less likely to have internet access or english fluency than the median opponent. And there probably is more than a little truth to that, the people participating in online discourse are obviously not a random or representative sample. But the minimization or sometimes outright dismissal of the viewpoints of people who actually live in the country and are effected by these things way more than any of us posting from the developed world does rub me the wrong way often still.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:22
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uninterrupted posted:Given the fact that OAS has been caught throwing out valid election results in Haiti because they didn't like the incoming government their findings can be discarded the same way a post on freep would. Yeah, I'm aware of the OAS' reputation. The best example I've come across is probably a Latin American presenter on human rights who was in favor of outside intervention to help resolve drug war issues, as long as it was not managed by the OAS. But I like to look more deeply into things before I take a definite stand, and in this case it's not necessary as their work so far speaks for itself.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:26
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Kill Bristol posted:I mean it does seem to be A Thing with these sort of events that there are american/european leftists on one side and people who live/lived in the country on the other side, in the context of online conversations like the one we're participating in ITT.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:26
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Kill Bristol posted:I mean it does seem to be A Thing with these sort of events that there are american/european leftists on one side and people who live/lived in the country on the other side, in the context of online conversations like the one we're participating in ITT. I'd say it's even more problematic to minimize or outright nullify the opinions of the plurality of Bolivian voters who support Evo's presidency, in favor of a handful of Twitter handles who insist he's the devil and that the opposition totally isn't racist.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:27
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Kill Bristol posted:I mean it does seem to be A Thing with these sort of events that there are american/european leftists on one side and people who live/lived in the country on the other side, in the context of online conversations like the one we're participating in ITT. I mean, just to be clear are you claiming there aren't massive shows of support for the government in the country and many groups, including marginalized communities, expressing fear and distrust of this coup? Like this handwringing only works if you pretend this thread is the end all be all of what's happening. What's really happening is a right wing, christian supremacist, military coup has happened and tons of people from groups worried about those people deciding they run the country now are fighting it, and yea sometimes someone comes in here all 'I have a friend in the city and actually everyone hated Evo and agreed he was a dictator and if you question me you're the real imperials, also please stop posting pictures of the nazi at the front of this coup it makes me sad'
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Nov 12, 2019 05:30
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Wobbuffet posted:Thank you for this. Wobbuffet, you never answered how even if it's appropriate to remove Morales, it's Totally Not A Coup to force out everyone in the presidential succession you need to force out to finally get to an opposition politician. Cause that seems a lot less like "morales can't legally be president anymore, we're taking care of that" and more "we're just doing whatever it takes to put Our Guy in power."
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Nov 12, 2019 05:30
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 love to support the totally real Bolivians with hours-old accounts using the exact same wording.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:30
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As an aside, how evil are the evangelical movements in South America that have enriched the recent conservative wave? Are all of them adherents to prosperity theology?
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Nov 12, 2019 05:30
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Majorian posted:I'd say it's even more problematic to minimize or outright nullify the opinions of the plurality of Bolivian voters who support Evo's presidency, in favor of a handful of Twitter handles who insist he's the devil and that the opposition totally isn't racist. Almost a full third of German voters in 1931 have assured me the Nazi party is not racist and frankly its condescending of these radical leftists not to take them at their word
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Nov 12, 2019 05:31
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Grouchio posted:As an aside, how evil are the evangelical movements in South America that have enriched the recent conservative wave? Are all of them adherents to prosperity theology? I mean, search your heart, you know the answer. I guess not all of them are prosperity weirdos no but they're almost entirely general religious fascists who want to use their 'faith' as a thin mask to just beat the poo poo out of groups they dislike.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:32
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There is also the counter-argument that the residents of any particular country are more likely to be victims of targeted, long-running misinformation campaigns, and get their information from narrow sources or hearsay, vs a neutral observer who has taken an interest. The local political stuff I hear repeated from my in-laws, hand on heart, is often staggeringly far from the truth.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:32
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420 Gank Mid posted:Almost a full third of German voters in 1931 have assured me the Nazi party is not racist and frankly its condescending of these radical leftists not to take them at their word look who are you gonna believe, some rando going 'hey it's weird how this guy wrote a bunch of stuff about how the jews must be driven from Germany, that seems bad' or this FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of someone hastily hiding an armband behind their back telling us he actually meant to say 'the chews', and was talking about undercooked pastry plaguing German bakeries.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:33
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reignonyourparade posted:Wobbuffet, you never answered how even if it's appropriate to remove Morales, it's Totally Not A Coup to force out everyone in the presidential succession you need to force out to finally get to an opposition politician. Cause that seems a lot less like "morales can't legally be president anymore, we're taking care of that" and more "we're just doing whatever it takes to put Our Guy in power." Where is the evidence that Lineras and Salvatierras were forced to resign? They did shortly after Morales did. Also Añez is calling for new elections so there'll be a new president by January 22nd.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:37
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For those who believe this isn't a coup, what would the difference be? What would have to change for you to label this a coup?
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Nov 12, 2019 05:39
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sexpig by night posted:look who are you gonna believe, some rando going 'hey it's weird how this guy wrote a bunch of stuff about how the jews must be driven from Germany, that seems bad' or this FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of someone hastily hiding an armband behind their back telling us he actually meant to say 'the chews', and was talking about undercooked pastry plaguing German bakeries. As a german-american with family still within the thousand year reich, long may it reign, it makes me very disappointed when uninformed leftists on something awful dot com repeat horrendous lies like "the freikorps are massacring political opponents in the streets" or "the laws banning germans from having sex with jews is a horrible violation of human rights". there's been so much suffering and pain that us aryans have gone through and its horrible how you're willing to just throw local voices under the bus like this
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Nov 12, 2019 05:40
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sexpig by night posted:I mean, just to be clear are you claiming there aren't massive shows of support for the government in the country and many groups, including marginalized communities, expressing fear and distrust of this coup? Like this handwringing only works if you pretend this thread is the end all be all of what's happening. What's really happening is a right wing, christian supremacist, military coup has happened and tons of people from groups worried about those people deciding they run the country now are fighting it, and yea sometimes someone comes in here all 'I have a friend in the city and actually everyone hated Evo and agreed he was a dictator and if you question me you're the real imperials, also please stop posting pictures of the nazi at the front of this coup it makes me sad' No, I'm saying that I don't have a full handle on what's going on there, and that you don't either, and that outright dismissing what people actually in the country are saying is dumb. Don't take it as gospel, sure, you shouldn't do that with anything, no one is a truly impartial observer. And like I said, i don't think that standard retort about who has internet access is baseless, there's certainly some truth there. But to sneeringly dismiss it because you supposedly have such a superior understanding from reading a couple articles that you can confidently discard what people who actually live someplace are saying about somewhere that you've in all likelihood never set foot in is gross, yes. I mean for the record, this does appear to be a coup, at least to me. But I'm cognizant of just how little I know about the situation. hoiyes posted:There is also the counter-argument that the residents of any particular country are more likely to be victims of targeted, long-running misinformation campaigns, and get their information from narrow sources or hearsay, vs a neutral observer who has taken an interest. The local political stuff I hear repeated from my in-laws, hand on heart, is often staggeringly far from the truth. ehh, I'm extremely skeptical of any argument that boils down to claiming that people in another country or continent are better or more 'impartial' observers than the people who actually live there. I mean there are certainly edge cases where like an academic who spends their life studying the politics of a country could credibly claim to have a deeper understanding of them than the average dude in that place, even if they've never set foot there. But I think they're the exception rather than the norm. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 05:40
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Wobbuffet posted:Where is the evidence that Lineras and Salvatierras were forced to resign? They did shortly after Morales did. Also Añez is calling for new elections so there'll be a new president by January 22nd. Did not expect "actually its just a coincidence they also resigned" lmao
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Nov 12, 2019 05:41
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This is wholly unrelated to current events, but man Evo was really poo poo on LGBT stuff and women’s rights. https://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2010/apr/22/chicken-causes-homosexuality-evo-morales As for current content: I hope that there are free and fair democratic elections, and that the violence stops. It doesn’t seem like either candidate was a “good” guy, so maybe there is room for the various indigenous and leftist groups that abandoned Morales before he resigned to put forward a new candidate.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:41
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Kill Bristol posted:No, I'm saying that I don't have a full handle on what's going on there, and that you don't either, and that outright dismissing what people actually in the country are saying is dumb. We're dismissing what people are saying when what they're saying is demonstrably untrue. We're having to do that a lot, because there are a number of people here making demonstrably untrue claims.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:41
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freeasinbeer posted:This is wholly unrelated to current events, but man Evo was really poo poo on LGBT stuff and women’s rights. buddy i have some incredibly bad news for you wrt literal nazis and the lgbt community
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Nov 12, 2019 05:43
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420 Gank Mid posted:Did not expect "actually its just a coincidence they also resigned" lmao More like they felt it was untenable that they would continue being in their positions given the current political climate.
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Nov 12, 2019 05:45
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Wobbuffet posted:More like they felt it was untenable that they would continue being in their positions given the current political climate. How is that meaningfully different from being forced out?
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Nov 12, 2019 05:46
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