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AGGGGH BEES posted:You know, randomly clicking this thread and seeing the exact same people stanning for Morales that were stanning for Maduro in the Venezuela thread in the exact same ways is highly amusing to me. It's literally exactly the same, all the way down to nebulous unsubstantiated claims of CIA interference and casual hand-waving of really obvious blatant election fraud. Aside from the small difference of, you know, a famine or two. I loathe wha'ts Maduro government has done and think the goons stanning him were some of the dumbest, most vile shitheads I've ever seen in a decade on these dumb forums, but the situation in Bolivia is not the same. There are some similarities, and some of the same posters even, but you don't have to be a tankie to see what's happening in Bolivia as a coup.
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Nov 12, 2019 07:49
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RIP Syndrome posted:The double standard would be in how it's determined if elections were valid, not in what to do about it once the determination has been made. Election fairness is a continuum, not an either/or determination. For instance, there may be many instances of local miscalculations or "miscalculations", paying for votes or trucking in soldiers to vote for a specific candidate, illegal advertisement, etc. up to and including centrally managed fraud in the counting process. this is a good point, but it's also an issue I'm going to try and avoid taking a position on. Ultimately I believe it is up to Bolivians to determine what is or isn't fair and to develop their own standards. In this case it seems like Bolivian institutions pretty much all came to the same conclusion that the elections had to be redone, although they weren't all necessarily motivated by their faith in democracy. While itt I have made an ideological as well as practical argument for representative democracy, I'm actually not that strictly wedded to it. Arguably the Bolivian Gas War that helped bring Morales to power was a subversion of the democratic process and resulted in several extra-constitutional solutions to political crises. However I think the way that crisis was handled was good -- the disparate political groups worked out a compromise that resulted in Morales becoming president and ushered in over a decade of steady growth and stability. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like normal processes are going to be able to resolve the crisis in Bolivia now, which is bad. Right now I mostly just hope Bolivians can work out a solution that doesn't result in crazy fascist taking over, and will continue to give everyone a voice in government. You don't have to tell me that there are a lot of biased sources putting out misinformation. Certainly you'd have been stupid to trust the immediate statements coming out of Washington DC. It's one reason why if you look at my posts I tend to emphasis the uncertainty, because there's a lot of things I don't know, that I don't think anybody knows.
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Nov 12, 2019 07:52
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Also Evo has said some stupid poo poo regarding gay men, but the MAS's record on LGBTQ rights, while not ideal, does not match that of a regressive homophobe. Anti-discrimination, hate crime and hate speech bills, along with the right to change one's gender, have all passed under Morales' administration, though the MAS-controlled congress did pass a constitutional ban on same-sex marriages. (both the government and sectors of the opposition had made tepid statements signalling they were open to discussing gay marriage/civil unions, though). It should be noted that public opinion on LGBTQ issues among Bolivians polls significantly lower than elsewhere in Latin America, so land of contrasts, I suppose. Three guesses as to how gay rights are gonna do under the "Bolivia belongs to Christ" crowd, tho.
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Nov 12, 2019 07:53
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Ytlaya posted:The hosed up implication by arguments like the one you quoted is that it's okay for military coups (or even worse, US intervention or support for the opposition) to happen as long as there's anything questionable about a country's government or democratic process. This is really stupid and awful, and the exact same logic can be (and repeatedly has been) used to support coups/"regime change" many times in the past. Sure, I think everyone here who is anti-coup is on the same page with you on that. Even if Morales committed some level of election fraud (which he didn't), that doesn't justify the military carrying out a coup, particularly one supported by foreign entities who don't have the same interests as the Bolivian people. But, as you say, this is a particularly flimsy case for a coup, even at first glance, and it's hard not to remark on that. e: https://twitter.com/pronemortalform/status/1194110158357565441 Subtle! Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 07:54
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AGGGGH BEES posted:You know, randomly clicking this thread and seeing the exact same people stanning for Morales that were stanning for Maduro in the Venezuela thread in the exact same ways is highly amusing to me. It's literally exactly the same, all the way down to nebulous unsubstantiated claims of CIA interference and casual hand-waving of really obvious blatant election fraud. Oh please, this is nothing like Venezuela. Morales isn't Maduro and the Bolivian "opposition" drat sure aren't the same as the Venezuelan opposition.
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Nov 12, 2019 08:29
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Squalid posted:I feel like I'm looking at some kind of amazon tribes person who just stepped out of the jungle and is wearing a penis sheath with a bone in through their nose shaking a rattle and saying "ooga booga." cool stuff man
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Nov 12, 2019 09:24
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Oh please, this is nothing like Venezuela. Morales isn't Maduro and the Bolivian "opposition" drat sure aren't the same as the Venezuelan opposition. Are we looking more at a Honduras situation? Some iffiness by a leftist leader leads to unrest and ultimately their unseating. The candidate of the right takes power after an election and then proceeds to do much worse poo poo than the leftist leader got up to (and do what they used as the pretext to unseat the leftist leader). Country then descends into further unrest, disruption, and violence.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:00
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Munin posted:Are we looking more at a Honduras situation? Some iffiness by a leftist leader leads to unrest and ultimately their unseating. The candidate of the right takes power after an election and then proceeds to do much worse poo poo than the leftist leader got up to (and do what they used as the pretext to unseat the leftist leader). Country then descends into further unrest, disruption, and violence. Yes but on the other hands the Lithium mines will be very profitable so it's impossible to say whether this is good or bad.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:04
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Munin posted:Are we looking more at a Honduras situation? Some iffiness by a leftist leader leads to unrest and ultimately their unseating. The candidate of the right takes power after an election and then proceeds to do much worse poo poo than the leftist leader got up to (and do what they used as the pretext to unseat the leftist leader). Country then descends into further unrest, disruption, and violence. I don't know if Morales got up to actual iffiness, but this seems like the most likely trajectory Bolivia is heading down.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:09
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I don't know if Morales got up to actual iffiness, but this seems like the most likely trajectory Bolivia is heading down. In the context of the election it's unclear, but to me seems more like clumsy handling of a situation that led to it all appearing more nefarious than it was and allowed opponents to portray it as such. Outside of that context there does seem to have been legitmate concerns about corruption and abuses of power under Morales, including many from the left and from indigenous (at least that's the impression I get from gleaming at the Twitter of that Ben Dangl guy) who were also concerned that Morales' increasing trend of gathering power around himself and thus making himself more and more indispensable to the movement was hurting the leftist movement in Bolivia in general and giving ammunition to critics. Anyway not the worst kinds of stuff, but a couple of genuine points of concern, but of the kind that could (and where applicable should) be levelled at basically any government really without calling for its violent deposition, in any case it does seem to have enabled the situation where you got a relatively large scale protest movement centered around and against Morales' bid for the presidency (which when it broke out was then co-opted by right-wing extremist elements) which drew support from a perceived trend of increasing corruption and centralization of power.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:20
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https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1193730263924256768 Resigning to spend more time with his family.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:27
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Randarkman posted:In the context of the election it's unclear, but to me seems more like clumsy handling of a situation that led to it all appearing more nefarious than it was and allowed opponents to portray it as such. Outside of that context there does seem to have been legitmate concerns about corruption and abuses of power under Morales, including many from the left and from indigenous (at least that's the impression I get from gleaming at the Twitter of that Ben Dangl guy) who were also concerned that Morales' increasing trend of gathering power around himself and thus making himself more and more indispensable to the movement was hurting the leftist movement in Bolivia in general and giving ammunition to critics. How does it make even an ounce of sense to uncritically accuse someone of "centralization of power" literally a couple of days after he was deposed by the army? Because it should be obvious that unless you actually control the armed forces and the cops you haven't centralized poo poo as all of this supposed power you have can always be taken away by force. Like, what the gently caress does the term even mean at that point? It's completely vacuous. Also fascists and militarists don't need an excuse to depose leftist leaders and giving them any kind of benefit of the doubt is real bad, hth.
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Nov 12, 2019 11:53
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Can't we all agree that, even if he did some questionable stuff, none justify the coup and that this is, really, a coup? Also is a horrible coup by horrible people. Racist fundamentalists. Any doubt about who these people are should have been dismissed when they started proudly burning indigenous flags
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Nov 12, 2019 12:04
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Cerebral Bore posted:How does it make even an ounce of sense to uncritically accuse someone of "centralization of power" literally a couple of days after he was deposed by the army? Because it should be obvious that unless you actually control the armed forces and the cops you haven't centralized poo poo as all of this supposed power you have can always be taken away by force. Like, what the gently caress does the term even mean at that point? It's completely vacuous. Well, I blame my own wording it was a bit misleading. What the stuff I read seemed to be referring referring more to the situation within Morales' own party and corresponding political movement than the state and government and how that was undermining its long-term prospects. I'm not giving the fascists the benefits of the doubt and if you think so you have some comprehension issues.
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Nov 12, 2019 12:16
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Wobbuffet posted:This is just one example of many that he was homophobic and sexist. Yeah, I am sure you were entirely unaware that UJC and Camacho were a vocal part of the opposition protest, because you seem to be unaware of any political current in your home country. Of course this nothing to do with "removing that corrupt druglord pedo criminal indian" being the one thing that takes all of your attention. Because somehow you also missed not only things like this https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/17/a-surprising-move-on-lgbt-rights-from-a-macho-south-american-president/ but also the fact that large shares of your beloved opposition will easily top any sexism and anti-lgbt sentiment Morales might still harbor. quote:That the rights of women and sexual minorities have progressed since Morales took office in 2006 is undeniable. In addition to the gender identity law, women now make up 51 percent of the national assembly, the second-highest proportion of female lawmakers in any national legislature in the world after Rwanda. Yet Morales describes himself proudly as a “feminist but with machista jokes." Ideal? Clearly not. But oh look, the base of the opposition, Santa Cruz: quote:Predictably, the gender identity law has met with stiff resistance, not least from the Catholic Church. There have been protest marches, particularly in Santa Cruz, the conservative city that is Bolivia’s economic motor. Writing in Bolivian newspaper El Diario, theologian Gary Antonio Rodrígues Alvarez even warned that the concept of “hate,” as used to define crimes committed against gays because of their sexuality, is “highly dangerous.” I am sure you will ignore this post, like you did my last. Because it is very obvious that there can only be one side that is bad in your mind, and all excesses on your side can be excused by the thirst for democracy. quote:Yet Galán, 48, believes Bolivia is a relative beacon of light in a region plagued by not just homophobia but homophobic violence. [...] That’s according to Carlos Parra, aka Paris Galán, the country’s best known drag queen and a prominent gay rights campaigner. It is beyond embarrassing how transparently your propaganda is, and it is even more embarrassing how western media do not even read their own goddam articles in research when they write their hot takes about this coup right now.
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Nov 12, 2019 12:31
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i criticize morales for not shooting this guy in the head when he had the chance So... it's cool espousing for the murder of foreign political figures on this forum now? Cool. Maybe he's a huge rear end in a top hat, I don't know, but you linked something by Max Blumenthal, who has an incredibly thin connection with what the "truth" is. He's incredibly absolutely 100% loving unreliable and makes poo poo up all the time, so different that he might even be living in a different reality from the one I am in, and somehow is breaking through the multiverse through twitter. E: The other article someone linked, https://elpais.com/internacional/2019/11/11/actualidad/1573488689_493218.html , seems much more "fact-based" than the bullshit spewing out of Max Blumenthal's sickly fingers. Max Blumenthal is one of the biggest pieces of poo poo on Twitter, and that's really saying something. He's a pro-genocide fascist utter waste of humanity. Saladman fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 12:45
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You can just read Camacho's Wikipedia article if you trust that more
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Nov 12, 2019 12:49
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Ague Proof posted:https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1193730263924256768 #nohaygolpe
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Nov 12, 2019 12:53
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Ras Het posted:You can just read Camacho's Wikipedia article if you trust that more I do, but now that I've read it, it doesn't say anything close to the stuff Max Blumenthal made up in his twisted little mind. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Fernando_Camacho . Max Blumenthal saying someone is a Nazi is pretty loving rich considering he's one of Assad's biggest supporters. Not only is there no clear substantiation for his claim, but he also seems to LIKE genocidal dictators, so I'm not even sure what his point is.
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Nov 12, 2019 12:53
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tbh analysis of how morales' position got weak enough that the coup was able to peel off almost all of his institutional support would be interesting - morales has had time to pick out politically reliable people for military leadership etc, and here even the union confederation buggered off, leaving him pretty much open. a lot of weird things must've been going on here and i doubt we're ever going to get real insight
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Nov 12, 2019 12:57
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Saladman posted:So... it's cool espousing for the murder of foreign political figures on this forum now? Cool. Yea, maybe the guy backing the fascist stormtroopers who are literally Sieg Heiling on camera is just misunderstood, who knows? Now this journalist guy, he's the real fascist here.
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Nov 12, 2019 12:58
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh analysis of how morales' position got weak enough that the coup was able to peel off almost all of his institutional support would be interesting - morales has had time to pick out politically reliable people for military leadership etc, and here even the union confederation buggered off, leaving him pretty much open. a lot of weird things must've been going on here and i doubt we're ever going to get real insight I haven't read up that much, but it seems that at least with the police the desertion came from the lower ranks while the leadership (at least for a while, I don't know enough yet) stayed loyal, but lost control of the situation when the policemen on the spot began to desert over to the opposition protestors and began moving against the MAS supporters instead.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:00
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Cerebral Bore posted:How does it make even an ounce of sense to uncritically accuse someone of "centralization of power" literally a couple of days after he was deposed by the army? Because it should be obvious that unless you actually control the armed forces and the cops you haven't centralized poo poo as all of this supposed power you have can always be taken away by force. Like, what the gently caress does the term even mean at that point? It's completely vacuous. He stacked the country with his supporters, against the wishes of the People -- the white middle-class, military, and police. The opposition had no choice but to burn ballot boxes that were full of illegitimate Morales votes, deposited one-by-one by his supporters.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:01
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yea, maybe the guy backing the fascist stormtroopers who are literally Sieg Heiling on camera is just misunderstood, who knows? Now this journalist guy, he's the real fascist here. https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/903739115287584769 Max Blumenthal is a loving monster, and I could find horrible Tweets of his all day if you'd like. Now, got a source for him "Sieg Heiling" on camera? I'd be happy to believe you, I've never heard of Camacho before like 3 days ago, but I didn't find anything in 10 minutes of looking, and Max Blumenthal saying something makes me almost assume that the opposite is true. Especially when it's posted by people who literally use hammer and sickles on their online avatars, who I assume are also breaking through from an alternate dimension where communism was something other than an abject series of atrocities and failures. Putting a hammer and sickle on your profile picture seems as bizarre and tasteless/clueless as putting a photo of Ayn Rand on your profile, but I digress.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:04
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Saladman posted:So... it's cool espousing for the murder of foreign political figures on this forum now? Cool. Saladman posted:I do, but now that I've read it, it doesn't say anything close to the stuff Max Blumenthal made up in his twisted little mind. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Fernando_Camacho . Max Blumenthal saying someone is a Nazi is pretty loving rich considering he's one of Assad's biggest supporters. Not only is there no clear substantiation for his claim, but he also seems to LIKE genocidal dictators, so I'm not even sure what his point is. Hey, dipshit. Unión Juvenil Cruceñista are a paramilitary group of loving Nazis who put Teutonic Crosses and swastikas on their clothes, vehicles, and other things, and recently did a Nazi salute in a video they made celebrating their success in the current coup, of which they've been an active part. Camacho was vice president of them from 2002-2004. This is not speculation, this is fact that shows up regularly in articles about the guy, even ones that are positive towards him. He's been keeping up the bullshit since officially leaving the UJC too, and has regularly pulled poo poo like this, which he did a couple days ago after the coup forced Morales out (while outside, the mob he led took down a flag representing the indigenous people of Bolivia and set it on fire): https://twitter.com/mljabbur/status/1193654296509857792 This is not some secret, and the thread has been providing plenty of evidence of this. You either haven't been paying attention, or you're intentionally ignoring reality so you can pretend everything Blumenthal said is false just because he's the one who said it. Either way, gently caress off. Edit: Here's the fascist group that, again, Camacho is publicly known to have been a leader of in the past, Seig Heiling: https://twitter.com/AndeanInfoNet/status/1189963356209328128 And here's an interview from someone in the group, saying "lovely" things like that queer people are "degenerates", poor people are "peasants", and that Camacho, like other leaders of their group, is doing this out of "love for our race": https://twitter.com/fcn_84/status/1193718439979950081 Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:05
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Roland Jones posted:https://twitter.com/mljabbur/status/1193654296509857792 That link shows that he's a religious nutbag, which is supported by all of the other sources, not that he's a literal Nazi stormtrooper. There's still a pretty huge jump between religious nutbag fascist and literally Hitler. E: He sounds awful, but describing absolutely everyone as "a Nazi" is cheapening the word, unless you literally think he plans to run extermination camps and kill hundreds of thousands or millions of people. Saladman fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:07
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Saladman posted:That link shows that he's a religious nutbag, which is supported by all of the other sources, not that he's a literal Nazi stormtrooper. There's a pretty huge jump between religious nutbag and literally Hitler. I mean, having led (and now seemingly being endorsed by) a group which uses the nazi salute typically should be enough to make that jump.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:09
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Saladman posted:https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/903739115287584769 Max Blumenthal is a loving monster, and I could find horrible Tweets of his all day if you'd like. Dude when you've become so unhinged because of your personal internet grudges that you start carrying water for literal ultra-catholic fascists then it might be time to take a step back and reassess the situation. E: Like, I'm not even being snarky here. This is exactly how people talk themselves into indavertently supporting the fash. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:09
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Saladman posted:That link shows that he's a religious nutbag, which is supported by all of the other sources, not that he's a literal Nazi stormtrooper. There's still a pretty huge jump between religious nutbag fascist and literally Hitler. Roland Jones posted:Here's the fascist group that, again, Camacho is publicly known to have been a leader of in the past, Seig Heiling:
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Nov 12, 2019 13:10
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https://twitter.com/business/status/1194203716720758784 L M A O the capitalists are drooling at the mouth thinking about all the poo poo they'll do to bolivia
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Nov 12, 2019 13:13
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Saladman posted:
Anyone who flies a nazi swastika flag is gonna get called a nazi, dude. Why are you trying to argue this? What on Earth is your obsession?
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Nov 12, 2019 13:13
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Yeah, he sounds pretty awful. Sorry, someone posting Max Blumenthal as if he were a news source just triggers me.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:17
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Saladman posted:That link shows that he's a religious nutbag, which is supported by all of the other sources, not that he's a literal Nazi stormtrooper. There's still a pretty huge jump between religious nutbag fascist and literally Hitler. Holy poo poo, dude. Read those tweets, read those texts about his "UJC" edit: and yah, they are not running gas chambers yet. But the first thing they do after getting into power though is to burn indigenous flags everywhere. Inst that a strong indication? Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:19
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Mischievous Mink posted:Anyone who flies a nazi swastika flag is gonna get called a nazi, dude. Why are you trying to argue this? What on Earth is your obsession? It's a common neo-nazi tactic to deny themselves being nazis since they are not literally members of the original german nazi party. Just happen to share the same ideology, aims (adjusting for local minorities), flag and salutes. But totally not nazis.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:21
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It kinda boggles the mind that there's even a question about whether the guy who led a neo-nazi organization, is now leading an ultra-catholic organization, participated in a violent rightwing coup and then walked into the Presidential palace and basically wowed to never let any minority person hold the office ever again is a fascist or not. Like, what the gently caress kinda reasonable definition of fascism is there that this guy doesn't fall under?
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Nov 12, 2019 13:25
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Some of these were posted already, but as a reminder on what's going on and that the coup not only has fascist elements but is already actively targeting marginalized people : https://twitter.com/OliviaArigho/status/1193687131564204032 https://twitter.com/LizzieVisitante/status/1193677215826927616 https://twitter.com/LizzieVisitante/status/1193721365167247360 https://twitter.com/mfox_us/status/1193701905186402304 https://twitter.com/ActualidadRT/status/1193902177368117249 https://twitter.com/aecarballo/status/1194079488017149955 https://twitter.com/Will_j_costa/status/1194055402842992640 Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:28
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The white supremacist overtones of the coup are undeniable, and even the coup supporters have had to resort to both sidesing and "a few bad apples" bullshit because they know that they can't defend this poo poo.
Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 13:31
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Cerebral Bore posted:It kinda boggles the mind that there's even a question about whether the guy who led a neo-nazi organization, is now leading an ultra-catholic organization, participated in a violent rightwing coup and then walked into the Presidential palace and basically wowed to never let any minority person hold the office ever again is a fascist or not. Like, what the gently caress kinda reasonable definition of fascism is there that this guy doesn't fall under? they have to be in the process of packing people into trains and sending them to death camps before you can definitively say they're nazis before that exact moment they're just "concerned citizens"
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Nov 12, 2019 13:33
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The German-American Bund had a big rally of concerned citizens in Madison Square Garden. Please don't call them Nazis, it cheapens the term.
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Nov 12, 2019 13:38
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Majorian posted:Sure, I think everyone here who is anti-coup is on the same page with you on that. Even if Morales committed some level of election fraud (which he didn't), that doesn't justify the military carrying out a coup, particularly one supported by foreign entities who don't have the same interests as the Bolivian people. But, as you say, this is a particularly flimsy case for a coup, even at first glance, and it's hard not to remark on that. 
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Nov 12, 2019 13:39
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