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Gozinbulx posted:Telesur is literal state propaganda, it says the right thing only when it is convenient to its narrative (yes I know first world media is also bad and respond to its own propaganda model). It's utter garbage. but enough about the bbc and npr and of course the new york times, which is not state propaganda per se but privately-owned bourgeois propaganda with extremely close ties to the state Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 20:26
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Relatedly, something I'm still trying to figure out is whether the handling of the electoral commission leadership, or the 34 others, is - Standard Bolivian federal police procedure - Unusual Bolivian federal police procedure that's sometimes used for high-profile arrests - Authoritarian seat-of-the-pants intimidating nonsense Their detention was considerably more, uh, procedurally expedited than most US arrests generally are, and parading the two bosses around like that is Pretty Weird to my sensibilities, but I straight up do not know if either of those things are weird by Bolivian standards. It feels like I'm going to have to dig through the coverage of other high-profile Bolivian arrests. this is separate from "should they / the whole basket have been detained in the first place" and, uh, "how kangarooey is the court going to be now that they're in cop custody" or "if this is standard celebratory procedure when you arrest a mob boss, should you do that to a federal employee you're investigating"
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Nov 12, 2019 20:33
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i really want to know what the attorney general's deal is honestly wouldn't be too surprised if he got resigned in the next week
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Nov 12, 2019 20:37
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:but enough about the bbc and npr It's almost like I addressed this directly in my response. Also the actual level of flat out lying and deception is much more overt in Telesur. Also I am referring to the actual Telesur in spanish.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:37
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Their detention was considerably more, uh, procedurally expedited than most US arrests generally are, and parading the two bosses around like that is Pretty Weird to my sensibilities, but I straight up do not know if either of those things are weird by Bolivian standards.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:42
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Gozinbulx posted:It's almost like I addressed this directly in my response. You did. You cited the refutation of your own statement in order to dismiss it simultaneously.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:43
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 quote:Mr. Morales, who had grown increasingly autocratic in nearly 14 years in office, insisted on running for a fourth term even after he lost a national referendum on whether he could seek it. The electoral tribunal, which he controls, then moved to falsify the results of the Oct. 20 vote so as to hand him a first-round victory. Presented without evidence.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:46
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which one is more morally bankrupt, wapo or nyt? nyt is more popular so it should be them but I have to say wapo is giving them a run for their money.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:51
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Doctor Jeep posted:which one is more morally bankrupt, wapo or nyt? yes
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Nov 12, 2019 20:52
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RIP Syndrome posted:
i will note that there is a distinction in major outlets between opinion articles and mainline articles Truga posted:here's a simple rule of thumb for that: if something is Pretty Weird by US standards, it's usually turboweird by normal people standards I mean, calibrating by my personal experience, this wouldn't be entirely out of place for a big arrest in Sri Lanka, but if this happened to a major government official, it would be a sign of poo poo Going Down behind the scenes (because otherwise they'd be largely above the law). Which... yeah, okay?
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Nov 12, 2019 20:55
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i will note that there is a distinction in major outlets between opinion articles and mainline articles Sure. That's by the Editorial Board, though, so it's ostensibly WaPo's opinion.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:57
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RIP Syndrome posted:Sure. That's by the Editorial Board, though, so it's ostensibly WaPo's opinion. Yeah, hence "The Post's View"
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Nov 12, 2019 20:59
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RIP Syndrome posted:Sure. That's by the Editorial Board, though, so it's ostensibly WaPo's opinion. ...oh dear
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Nov 12, 2019 21:02
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Democracy Dies in Darkness indeed.
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Nov 12, 2019 21:03
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Let's check the local neeeeeeeeeeews here in Mexico: https://www.jornada.com.mx/ultimas/politica/2019/11/12/daban-50-mil-dolares-por-entregarme-revela-evo-morales-7144.html quote:Ciudad de México. Evo Morales reveló que un día antes de que presentara su renuncia, un militar de su equipo de seguridad le advirtió que le habían ofrecido 50 mil dólares por entregar al entonces presidente de Bolivia. In english: Evo claims that a military guy from his security team warned him there was a 50 thousand USD reward to whoever turned him over. That was saturday, the 9th. La Jornada pretty confidently calling it a coup. https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/es-noticia/mundo/evo-morales El Universal being coy cowards and not calling it either way but their coverage has a negative tinge that leans more towards "Evo bad". Opinion pieces, from light skinned mexicans, are of the "WE ARE GOING TO BECOME VENEZUELA!" variety, as they've been for the past couple years. https://www.milenio.com/temas/bolivia Milenio. Very neutral, really. Of note is Joaquin Lopez Dorigas' opinion which masterfully straddles the fence between "It WAS a coup" but "there was fraud too." https://www.reforma.com/libre/online07/aplicacionei/Pagina.html Reforma. Reforma is trash. Their articles are like "durrr Evo will land sometime soon???" and their opinion pieces are all like El Universal's too, lots of rich mexicans clutching their pearls. Edit: Freebie https://www.proceso.com.mx/606426/evo-un-presidente-infinitamente-mas-exitoso-que-fox-calderon-y-pena quote:BOGOTÁ (apro).- Por más que la derecha boliviana y regional han tratado de desacreditar la gestión de gobierno del expresidente de Bolivia, Evo Morales, el saldo económico y social que dejan los 14 años en el poder del astuto líder indígena es absolutamente excepcional en el contexto latinoamericano. Translated: quote:Evo: A president infinitely more successful than Fox, Calderon and Peña. Det_no fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 21:26
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Doctor Jeep posted:which one is more morally bankrupt, wapo or nyt? nyt is more popular so it should be them but I have to say wapo is giving them a run for their money. NYT imo since there is such heavy pretense. Wapo has Washington literally in its name, it would be like reading Pravda. You know what you're getting
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Nov 12, 2019 21:33
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Homeless Friend posted:NYT imo since there is such heavy pretense. Wapo has Washington literally in its name, it would be like reading Pravda. You know what you're getting It's kinda dependent upon the paper's reputation at any given time, with the paper with the better reputation being worse by virtue of being taken more seriously. Currently NYT seems to have a relatively bad reputation among US liberals compared with the WaPo, so the WaPo being bad is arguably somewhat worse. Though this is a kind of meaningless distinction since they're both awful. It really can't be understated how bad US media is when it comes to topics related to US foreign policy and government interests. If you're talking about a topic like either this or Venezuela, it is quite literally no better than something like RT/teleSUR (and realistically it's probably worse, since "being opposed to US foreign policy" is at least an ideological slant that is far more likely to result in decent/correct reporting than the opposite).
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Nov 12, 2019 21:59
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The WaPo is basically a European center-right paper like the German FAZ, and doesn't make much pretense to be progressive. The Times is doing this weird contortionist act where they have to convince themselves and their upper-upper-middle class readership that they are in fact woke and progressive while at the same time supporting the class position of such people, which necessarily means undermining and opposing in practice progressive policies. IMO the Times is clearly worse than the WaPo, although I wouldn't pay to subscribe to either. It's honestly probably worse than the Guardian, because I think Britain has a clearer history of distinction between a social/progressive liberalism and socialism, which makes the Guardian's support for the former and hostility towards the latter clearer and less confused
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 22:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Relatedly, something I'm still trying to figure out is whether the handling of the electoral commission leadership, or the 34 others, is They're literally purging the Bolivian Parliament of its majority party and you still haven't managed to figure out if this is authoritarian poo poo or not. How the gently caress is that even possible?
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Nov 12, 2019 22:34
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I've been mulling the attorney general thing over a little more. The timing is a little weird and I feel like there're some tea leaves to be read there. Morales ordering all those folks detained would be pretty drastic, not necessarily totally impossible given the dire straits but it feels off. On the other end, I'm not sure how much sense it makes for the military to make the AG and police chief do it at that exact moment, since it has a chance to make Morales look like he's going to great lengths to comply with the right's demands. That's not really what Team Coup wants. I think the most sensical reading, especially in light of the police chief then getting resigned, might be that it was him and the AG scrambling to cover their asses. If it helps Morales stay, great, and they can sort it out later. If Morales fails, it makes them look tough on crime and tough on electoral fraud to Team Coup and the general public, and they can offer the arrested electoral folks up in ritual sacrifice. now watch the police guy flee to Mexico and announce he was strongarmed by the military / the CIA
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Nov 12, 2019 22:35
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also maybe some inside plotting went on inside the police / justice apparatus and the two top guys were pressured by their own, coup-friendlier minions who maybe weren't in on the bigger plan, the lower ranks of the police flipping was the core of the whole debacle after all
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Nov 12, 2019 22:37
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Team Coup doesn't give a poo poo about how it looks, they're confident that nobody in the MSM will report the truth about what's going on before it's too late anyway. So why the hell would literal fascist death squads balk at sticking a gun to the head of the AG and just make him do what they want?
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Nov 12, 2019 22:39
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Cerebral Bore posted:Team Coup doesn't give a poo poo about how it looks, they're confident that nobody in the MSM will report the truth about what's going on before it's too late anyway. So why the hell would literal fascist death squads balk at sticking a gun to the head of the AG and just make him do what they want? Why not do it in the other order and grab everybody after Morales resigns? ...wait, weren't the two heads nabbed at the airport or something? that might have been the trigger, although that further implies the feds were at least CONSIDERING detaining them before then, at least enough to be monitoring them as flight risks I dunno, maybe we'll find out more over the next week or two.
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Nov 12, 2019 22:42
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Gozinbulx posted:Telesur is literal state propaganda, it says the right thing only when it is convenient to its narrative (yes I know first world media is also bad and respond to its own propaganda model). It's utter garbage. There's literally no reason to trust the NY Times or the Washington Post more than Telesur. A look at how either of those treated literally any coups in Latin America in history will show you why. This is not a defense of telesur, by the way.
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Nov 12, 2019 22:59
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They’re going to murder tens of thousands of people in the time to come, which isn’t “normal” but which is perfectly Normal. Are you really reading tea leaves and prognosticating about the normalcy of a sieg-healing fascist driving around in a red swastika truck burning down la Paz, looting and ransacking the place, etc.?
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Nov 12, 2019 23:02
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joepinetree posted:There's literally no reason to trust the NY Times or the Washington Post more than Telesur. A look at how either of those treated literally any coups in Latin America in history will show you why. This is not a defense of telesur, by the way. I am grudgingly willing to grant that telesur is meaningfully better on Not Venezuela than on Venezuela. It's part of a balanced breakfast on some topics (not even all in LatAm), long as one's aware of its considerable biases.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:09
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Spice World War II posted:She, and a lot of other Bolivians, might greatly enjoy their ethnostate; after all, plenty of people were fine with it pre-Morales, too. Three quarters of my family live in various cities in Bolivia. Not everyone in the opposition is a full on cosplaying Nazi, but you have to be willfully blind to not notice the cosplaying Nazi type is part of it just by going to social media, and they have such a long and proud tradition too! You have to be even more willfully blind to claim that it took the hundreds of jubilant facebook posts and tweets of "democratic opposition" accounts filming themselves taking down, burning or ripping wiphalas of their uniforms for you to notice that a very ugly anti-indigenous sentiment has been a part of the opposition basically from the day Morales took office. Hell, plenty of them promised to do just that publically well in advance!. It is very nice to hear perspectives from an actual Bolivian. E.g. someone who is or had relatives on the ground. And direct insight on the country.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:It is very nice to hear perspectives from an actual Bolivian. E.g. someone who is or had relatives on the ground. And direct insight on the country. seconded
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Nov 12, 2019 23:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I've been mulling the attorney general thing over a little more. The timing is a little weird and I feel like there're some tea leaves to be read there. "All the people who stood in the way of Morales's opposition being the only one in the line of presidential succession may have been Morales's doing." No, dumbass.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:32
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"Morales must have planned all this actually," is the kinda take you only come to if you for some reason think Morales is simultaneously the kind of Machiavellian bond villain he comes up with games like this, but also is just so goddamn stupid he does them for...no real gain? Like, he gets nothing if that is the plan?
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Nov 12, 2019 23:36
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LivPosting/status/1194058864964120576 Also that loving WaPo article, included a tweet from noted compulsive liar, fascist and military dictatorship apologist Bolsonaro in it's Was this a coup? explainer.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:36
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punk rebel ecks posted:It is very nice to hear perspectives from an actual Bolivian. E.g. someone who is or had relatives on the ground. And direct insight on the country. She seems to be one of the most clueless people on the subject, what insights are you reading from her?
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Nov 12, 2019 23:38
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Mischievous Mink posted:She seems to be one of the most clueless people on the subject, what insights are you reading from her? I think they're referring to the person they're quoting, who has family in Bolivia, and not the lady who has spent her whole posting career regurgitating obvious pre-canned pro-coup talking points.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:42
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https://twitter.com/EduRdelaCruz/status/1194027170651348992
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Nov 12, 2019 23:42
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Best I'd say about the NYT is as an organisation it is utter poo poo, that nevertheless manages to have excellent reporters on it sometimes. Like it broke that story about trump's tax frauds back in the 90s, which was excellent reporting! But then you look at this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/world/americas/evo-morales-bolivia.html and if you think "yes this is quality reporting", i dunno what to say. quote:The opposition felt victorious when initial results showed that Mr. Morales had failed to carve out the 10-percentage-point margin needed for an outright win and would have to face a runoff. That scenario was potentially ruinous for Mr. Morales because other opposition candidates had endorsed the runner-up, Mr. Mesa. This is equal parts disingenuous and outright lies. Calling the quick count "initial results", when targeted at a primarily western audience, gives them the sense the results are actually binding, official results, when they're not. Proper reporting would have pointed out that bolivia has two counts, like much of the OAS nations (since the OAS is the one that encourages them to have two counts!), and that the quick count isn't binding or nearly as rigorous as the official count. Claiming there was no information for 24 hours is a flatout lie, the official count was still updated online, and even the quick count still had photos of each tally sheet uploaded etc. And stopping the quick count after 80% is the same thing that happened in previous years. It's not unexpected, and they had a press conference when they ended, just like other years. If they meant "the quick count updates were stopped", why did they say "vote count"? The "stunning update" isn't so stunning if you look at the trend of results from both the quick count and the official count. Also, it neglects to mention he only had to gain just under 3% more than CC from the remaining ~17% of votes to reach that threshold. Also, doesn't mention the make-up of the remaining portion: https://telegra.ph/Bolivia-201019-d%C3%B3nde-estaban-los-votos-que-faltaban-en-el-TREP-11-01 Proper reporting would have also pointed out the issues with using a quick count as a foolproof indicator of the end result, given their well-known geographical biases. It's just lovely reporting, plain and simple.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:47
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Cerebral Bore posted:I think they're referring to the person they're quoting, who has family in Bolivia, and not the lady who has spent her whole posting career regurgitating obvious pre-canned pro-coup talking points. Yes, this.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:49
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"its not a coup! its not a coup!!", i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a hitler
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Nov 12, 2019 23:49
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reignonyourparade posted:"All the people who stood in the way of Morales's opposition being the only one in the line of presidential succession may have been Morales's doing." What? I mean, what? That's literally the opposite of both what I said and where I settled on who instigated the thing. I think there's some confusion here. The arrests in question were of the electoral commission folks - the two leaders and, slightly later but in the same batch of AG actions, a bunch of lower officials. The vice president and the two senate people resigned in a separate and DEFINITELY coup-pressured act, which is incidentally what put me firmly into "uh oh this is real bad" territory in the distant mists of the evening before yesterday. And, sexpig by night posted:"Morales must have planned all this actually," is the kinda take you only come to if you for some reason think Morales is simultaneously the kind of Machiavellian bond villain he comes up with games like this, but also is just so goddamn stupid he does them for...no real gain? Like, he gets nothing if that is the plan? and yes I said it sounded like the incentives for Morales to order the arrests didn't make a huge amount of sense, especially after cerebral bore indirectly reminded me of a thing or two; it being either a Coup Thing or the AG / police chief covering their asses are way more plausible basically we're agreeing angrily at each other edit: and the confusion is understandable because i was following up on my own earlier posts but didn't explicitly say so, whoopsiedoodle, sorry about that Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Nov 13, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 23:57
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GreyjoyBastard posted:
I mean, yea, D&D
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Nov 13, 2019 00:29
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https://twitter.com/brunosgarzini/status/1194044499611332610 They literally want to kill people
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Nov 13, 2019 00:39
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