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chaosapiant posted:Is the Green Pill lady supposed to resemble Dorothy from Golden Girls? Failure Communist, rabid fascist, spineless moralist, and corrupt capitalist liberal are the only allowed choices.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:16
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Its Coke posted:if you arrest Klaasje does it make the Tribunal go any better? not the thing you highlighted specifically, but the end-game conversation changes edit: there's no CRPG-style "unambiguously good" outcome for the event you're referencing. no matter what, people are going to get hurt and die. you've got a very small ability to affect who, and how many, but you can't completely avoid the outcome (which is a consistent message throughout the game)
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Nov 14, 2019 19:22
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Volte posted:Honestly the health pool mechanic feels really shoehorned. I don't quite understand the point of it since I had like 9+ of both types of healing items the entire game and never let myself linger below full, except for the first 10 seconds of the game where I died from trying to grab my tie and had to completely redo character creation as a result. The tabletop system it's built on is certainly a type of RPG (almost like a tabletop adventure game/RPG hybrid) but this game, being largely static in nature, really doesn't hit basically any of the standard notes that RPGs hit. That's not a bad thing, I just don't get why people are wishing that RPG devs would smarten up and make all RPGs like DE going forward, because to me that's basically like listening to jazz and saying "drat that's good stuff, all rock music should be like this from now on". Sometimes I want to listen to rock music dammit. The health pools are there to make you think more carefully about your actions, and just to have fun fail states, like sitting in a chair so uncomfortable you literally die. This game seems to really be designed around being able to quick save and load any time you want, which is totally fine. Not everything has to be serious and hardcore. There's no iron man mode that deletes your save when you die or quit the force in despair, there are no bragging rights to be earned by playing it safe all the time. The idea with this game being a big watershed moment for RPGs doesn't mean that every RPG needs to drop combat, but rather that it's okay for them to not have combat. Like, Planescape has legendarily lovely combat, and I've heard that the sequel is even worse somehow. If you're making a narrative-heavy RPG where the combat was just tossed in as an obligation, then it's okay to just drop it. Like if you had to fight random gangs of thugs every time you walked from the hostel to the docks in this game, just because the developers felt like it was necessary to make it a "real" RPG, that would be stupid and go against a lot of the themes it was trying to build up. Tabletop RPGs have already shed a lot of these old obligations, it's nice to see computer RPGs following suit. There are plenty of games that only have generic obstacle or challenge rules, with nothing specific for direct combat. Sometimes you just want to go crunch some numbers or kill hundreds of goblins, and that's fine too. But it's better when the game is built around it, like XCOM or Diablo or whatever. It's expanding the possibilities, not saying that games with combat aren't cool anymore.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:29
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chaosapiant posted:Is the Green Pill lady supposed to resemble Dorothy from Golden Girls? Moralism is basically free-markets slightly regulated by government which also provides a nominal welfare state. I think one of the previous Innocences (mighta even been Dolores Dei?) is called the "Innocence of the Welfare State." Ultraliberal is more anarco-capitalist or libertarian. If you're looking for a sane version of liberalism (not that there is one am i right?) you're not going to get it, the politics in this game are all hilariously caricatured into the shittiest version of themselves.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:32
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Digital Osmosis posted:Moralism is basically free-markets slightly regulated by government which also provides a nominal welfare state. I think one of the previous Innocences (mighta even been Dolores Dei?) is called the "Innocence of the Welfare State." Ultraliberal is more anarco-capitalist or libertarian. Makes sense and that was my interpretation of it as well. Glad to know it wasn't wrong.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:34
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Dolores was a monster
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Nov 14, 2019 19:35
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Dolores was a monster Possibly literally. Everything about her was actually weirder to me than the Pale.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:37
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There's sane political viewpoints, just don't pick the same option every time, and maybe don't internalise the political thoughts
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Nov 14, 2019 19:42
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Night10194 posted:Possibly literally. Everything about her was actually weirder to me than the Pale. Dolores Dei is Danaerys Targaryen if she'd been allowed and had more time to rule.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:44
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Fangz posted:There's sane political viewpoints, just don't pick the same option every time, and maybe don't internalise the political thoughts It'd be pretty interesting if it's the former, and that might prompt me to go all-in on an ideology and cop type on a second run... Ersatz fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 19:49
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Ersatz posted:Does internalizing the thoughts actually change dialogue options, or are all of the options opened up just by having the thoughts in the cabinet? Not completely sure but I believe so. Some of the options are just based off the political scores though. I was able to declare myself a Giant Communist without internalising the thought and only being moderately eat-the-rich.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:51
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Ersatz posted:Does internalizing the thoughts actually change dialogue options, or are all of the options opened up just by having the thoughts in the cabinet? Internalizing thoughts definitely changes options. Just unlocking the ability to internalize a thought doesn't do anything.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:51
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Begemot posted:Internalizing thoughts definitely changes options.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:53
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Night10194 posted:Possibly literally. Everything about her was actually weirder to me than the Pale. is there some online lore repository for all of her antics? i caught a glimpse of some of it from the church on my first play through, but lacked the necessary skill ranks to unlock everything, and i only pieced together a few more bits & pieces the second time around. i'd love to be able to just read all of the stuff related to her in one go
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Nov 14, 2019 19:56
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Begemot posted:Internalizing thoughts definitely changes options. Just unlocking the ability to internalize a thought doesn't do anything. Are you sure? Xander77 from here says in his guide in Steam that you don't need to actually internalize thoughts to get their dialogue options.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:58
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Also I'm kinda mad that I invested heavily on Inland Empire on my first playthrough but never got the tie dialogue and remote viewing and I don't know why. I wanted my second go to be completely different but it feels like I'll have to sink lots of points into IE again. The same thing applies to Shivers and the city straight up asking you to save it, I think?.
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Nov 14, 2019 20:00
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I don't know if it subverts the intention of the game but it would be great if you could save 'outfits' so you could put on your Interfacing or Half-light outfit then go back to your default or whatnot.
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Nov 14, 2019 20:29
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Begemot posted:The health pools are there to make you think more carefully about your actions, and just to have fun fail states, like sitting in a chair so uncomfortable you literally die. This game seems to really be designed around being able to quick save and load any time you want, which is totally fine. Not everything has to be serious and hardcore. There's no iron man mode that deletes your save when you die or quit the force in despair, there are no bragging rights to be earned by playing it safe all the time.  I had to go through the entire character creation and intro sequence again. It was a sour note to start the game on. It's kind of funny in retrospect but I have no respect for games wasting my time and that was definitely a huge case of that. That could easily have been fixed by having the game autosave as soon as you get through the intro bit though, but I have a feeling that they did it on purpose. Anyway, I never really felt a meaningful correlation between my morale/health and my actions, aside from blowing dice rolls and taking a morale hit. But presumably, the story consequence of blowing the dice roll is the real risk you take when you make choices, not your stat meters which can be easily repaired within one second.Begemot posted:The idea with this game being a big watershed moment for RPGs doesn't mean that every RPG needs to drop combat, but rather that it's okay for them to not have combat. Like, Planescape has legendarily lovely combat, and I've heard that the sequel is even worse somehow. If you're making a narrative-heavy RPG where the combat was just tossed in as an obligation, then it's okay to just drop it. Like if you had to fight random gangs of thugs every time you walked from the hostel to the docks in this game, just because the developers felt like it was necessary to make it a "real" RPG, that would be stupid and go against a lot of the themes it was trying to build up. I actually would like to see what kind of combat system the DE devs could come up with. Something turn-based like Fallout or Divinity could have fit right in I think. Especially if the combat system wasn't just about picking which person to shoot or which spell to cast, but you could use your physical skills to do things like distract or disorient the enemy, your speech skills to threaten or negotiate, or your intuition skills to point out flaws in the enemy's defenses, complete with mid-combat dialogue and decision-making, but with more traditional strategic/positioning elements as well. Maybe a high authority or physical instrument skill could let you convince the enemy to surrender or flee, ending combat without anyone dying. In other words, there's plenty of room for skilled writers to write good combat scenarios that are more advanced and strategic than just "did combat succeed (75% chance)? y/n" and more thoughtful than "your party's AI just goes to town on a bunch of red-circled NPCs for 10 seconds". I'm not saying DE needed those things or would have been better with them, but I would be keen on playing a game like that. Begemot posted:Tabletop RPGs have already shed a lot of these old obligations, it's nice to see computer RPGs following suit. There are plenty of games that only have generic obstacle or challenge rules, with nothing specific for direct combat.
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Nov 14, 2019 20:38
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Volte posted:COMBAT i was super skeptical that the game would work without combat before it was released, but i can't imagine playing DE with combat after release. 99% of combat encounters in every other RPG exist just to artificially lengthen the segments of the game between plot beats, or maybe serve as tactical resource attrition puzzles if they're really clever. i'm not saying that every RPG should omit combat now, but i really hope devs think about whether or not some kind of D&D-style combat actually makes sense in the context of the story they're trying to tell, rather than being taken as fait accompli that their CRPG must have some kind of battle system. the most enjoyable RPG combat i've encountered in the last few years was in breath of the wild, because there were just so many loving options you could explore beyond the obvious "hit things with swords" and all of the internal world logic you learned throughout the rest of the game behaved consistently during combat too, so it wasn't this completely separate scenario that felt alien to the story. i think any game that's going to feature combat (or not) needs to ensure that the implementation of the experience is consistent with whatever else is going on.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What was the last RPG *with* stats that grew over time and experience, but *without* a combat engine? Monkey Island? I think you're confusing Monkey Island with some other game
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Nov 14, 2019 21:04
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The other thing is combat tends to hard-gate progression, which is one of the ways you get trap builds. Why does everyone get kind of annoyed there's a mandatory Shivers check at one point in the game? For the same reason having actual normal CRPG Combat in DE would be annoying: Combat tends to be 'if you didn't put points in your win combat stats, you can't play past this point'.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:04
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DE doesn't need traditional rpg combat. In this kind of story, drawing your weapon on someone who already has theirs out is a tense and dangerous moment and if things go wrong a single bullet will kill you.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Failure Communist, rabid fascist, spineless moralist, and corrupt capitalist liberal are the only allowed choices. there is also the golden option : All four at the same time
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Nov 14, 2019 21:09
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Freaking Crumbum posted:not the thing you highlighted specifically, but the end-game conversation changes yeah but I would have liked the choice of whether to arrest her to be more meaningful. instead of just "you do it and it's a fuckup" it could be a choice between letting her go because you feel sorry for/love her or sacrificing her to save more lives at the Tribunal
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Nov 14, 2019 21:13
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Ersatz posted:Does internalizing the thoughts actually change dialogue options, or are all of the options opened up just by having the thoughts in the cabinet? I don't know whether internalizing the politics changes options but there are DEFINITELY changes to dialogue based on which ideology you get the most points in
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Nov 14, 2019 21:14
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ok so I've been farming Hard Mode Cuno for the last 3 nights and I'm just not sure the legendary FALN Knuckles exist
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Nov 14, 2019 21:15
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wiegieman posted:DE doesn't need traditional rpg combat. In this kind of story, drawing your weapon on someone who already has theirs out is a tense and dangerous moment and if things go wrong a single bullet will kill you. Traditional RPG combat would badly cheapen the deep approach that the game takes toward the psychology of anguish, addiction, etc... And if there's anything specific that I'd point to in suggesting to non-gamer friends that this game is Art, it's that those issues are handled with maturity and insight. As others in the thread have mentioned, I'm actually catching myself thinking in different ways after inhabiting Detective Costeau.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:16
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Its Coke posted:yeah but I would have liked the choice of whether to arrest her to be more meaningful. instead of just "you do it and it's a fuckup" it could be a choice between letting her go because you feel sorry for/love her or sacrificing her to save more lives at the Tribunal
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Nov 14, 2019 21:16
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Volte posted:Is it called out as a gently caress up if you do arrest her? Because Kim also explicitly calls out not arresting her as a gently caress up after either the Ruby confrontation or the tribunal, I can't remember which. I guess the game is just designed to make you feel like you made the wrong choice no matter what. It's called out as a gently caress up insofar as if you have enough shivers you get a narration implying that she wasn't lying and does get murked while in custody.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:19
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Volte posted:Is it called out as a gently caress up if you do arrest her? Because Kim also explicitly calls out not arresting her as a gently caress up after either the Ruby confrontation or the tribunal, I can't remember which. I guess the game is just designed to make you feel like you made the wrong choice no matter what. You can be ignorant of your gently caress up Its a shivers passive roll
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Nov 14, 2019 21:21
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Volte posted:Is it called out as a gently caress up if you do arrest her? Because Kim also explicitly calls out not arresting her as a gently caress up after either the Ruby confrontation or the tribunal, I can't remember which. I guess the game is just designed to make you feel like you made the wrong choice no matter what. shivers gives you a bleak description of her being assassinated in custody if you arrest her
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Nov 14, 2019 21:22
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When you guys talk about the tribunal are you meaning the shootout thing that happens at the end?
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Nov 14, 2019 21:24
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The obvious answer is to build Communism again but better and turn the RCM into a proper fist for the proletariat against the crazy people trying to run the free market.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:27
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VelociBacon posted:When you guys talk about the tribunal are you meaning the shootout thing that happens at the end? I wouldn't call that the end, but yes. it's literally a tribunal because it involves 3 judges and Joyce calls it that
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Nov 14, 2019 21:27
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Fellatio del Toro posted:ok so I've been farming Hard Mode Cuno for the last 3 nights and I'm just not sure the legendary FALN Knuckles exist Needs more micro transactions.... “Revachol RCM officer status- your first purchase provides three FREE stays at the whirling, plus a personal radio you can use to check in with friends online*!” *friends must also purchase RCM officer status to use radio
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Nov 14, 2019 21:27
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Its Coke posted:yeah but I would have liked the choice of whether to arrest her to be more meaningful. instead of just "you do it and it's a fuckup" it could be a choice between letting her go because you feel sorry for/love her or sacrificing her to save more lives at the Tribunal i think "it's a gently caress-up" kind of implies a specific type of value judgement that's inconsistent with the themes of the game. i took it more like "you did a thing, here's the consequence of your choice. the end, no moral" because the entire theme of the game seems to be "events are constantly unfolding in the world around you, you're basically only able to affect how you react to them, anything else that happens is out of your hands"
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Nov 14, 2019 21:29
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Alpheratz posted:there is also the golden option : All four at the same time wait a second... capitalism... and humanism... and socialism... and fascism... could it be? 
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Nov 14, 2019 21:34
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I won't bother quoting everyone individually but a lot of responses to my combat post seem to be missing the fact that "traditional RPG combat" and "combat" in general aren't necessarily the same thing. A fresh new take on RPG combat that steps away from the tropes of fantasy RPGs is what I would look for, not the same old poo poo shoehorned in, just like I don't want the very concept of RPG combat to be erased from our collective memories like a bad dream. I think DE's skills system would lend itself to a unique and fresh combat system that doesn't involve mass murdering the whole town for no reason or gating progression behind your combat stats. Some people say that DE does have combat, in the form of skill checks during dialogue, which is almost true, but it doesn't have the key ingredient: letting players come up with crafty ways to solve situations, which is one of my favourite things about RPGs and one thing that I think is hopeless without some form of combat. Really, combat is just a stand-in word for "unscripted freeform player-driven action/consequence loop". Dress it up however you want, but it's something that I would miss if it suddenly became outmoded. Disco Elysium didn't really need this since the characters were so fleshed out and the narrative basically set in stone. The tribunal wouldn't have been quite as powerful if I could have just AoE stunned the mercs with my dancing for 6 turns and "teleported" everyone away to safety but I still think it would be fun to explore how a free-form system could complement a tree-based dialogue system without being overbearing.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:34
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Freaking Crumbum posted:i think "it's a gently caress-up" kind of implies a specific type of value judgement that's inconsistent with the themes of the game. i took it more like "you did a thing, here's the consequence of your choice. the end, no moral" because the entire theme of the game seems to be "events are constantly unfolding in the world around you, you're basically only able to affect how you react to them, anything else that happens is out of your hands" that sounds like learned helplessness, which is a symptom of depression
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Nov 14, 2019 21:36
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also the idea of "you're only able to affect how you react to events" runs completely counter to a game where decisions you make can affect whether several people live or die
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Nov 14, 2019 21:39
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