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That’s sus. Worth interviewing a bit further if the practice is good, and hey, maybe you’ll get some practice negotiating a contract, which is worthwhile.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:36
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Grump posted:Already had a technical interview this week - everything's looking great. HR person might just be dumb/new, ask to get that info before accepting (well, duh on salary). To find a range check glassdoor and come up with a (high) number for yourself. I wouldn't necessarily judge a whole company on how HR acts.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:27
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Yeah, there's very, very rarely a reason to not interview. It will almost always be a net gain for you. Especially if you don't want the job.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:33
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Ended up getting the job I posted about ^^^ They offered 115k without even asking me for a number. Would it be ridiculous to ask for 5-10k more?  
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Nov 16, 2019 01:27
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Grump posted:Ended up getting the job I posted about ^^^ Nope, go for it. I'd personally shoot for an extra week of vacation (which technically is only worth 2% of your salary but generally I find it is worth more personally).
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Nov 16, 2019 01:43
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Always ask for at least 10k more IMO
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Nov 16, 2019 01:50
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Lockback posted:Nope, go for it. I'd personally shoot for an extra week of vacation (which technically is only worth 2% of your salary but generally I find it is worth more personally). This might just be the move. I’m only getting 15 PTO days, which only increases after 5 years. Frankly that part is the biggest hit to me.
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Nov 16, 2019 04:23
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I have an Associate degree. And I'm very good with Java and C++, having written a few android apps, one of which is complex, native, and published. I've also written a few desktop applications with Qt and I know some very rudimentary JavaScript, HTML, Python, etc. I keep getting flat out rejected for dev jobs. What kind of jobs am I qualified for? Should I learn web development? Should I work in IT? What does that even mean? I don't even need to be programming (but I would like to be), I just want to escape the torture that is my current profession and I don't know how to direct my job search. Please help, it is killing me. Thanks.
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Nov 18, 2019 04:49
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Anne Bonny posted:I have an Associate degree. And I'm very good with Java and C++, having written a few android apps, one of which is complex, native, and published. I've also written a few desktop applications with Qt and I know some very rudimentary JavaScript, HTML, Python, etc. I keep getting flat out rejected for dev jobs. Have you posted your resume here? When are you getting rejected? What's a link to your GitHub (feel free to PM it)? What jobs are you applying for? How long have you been job searching? How many jobs have you applied to?
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Nov 18, 2019 04:56
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Anne Bonny posted:I'm very good with Java and C++,... I keep getting flat out rejected for dev jobs. You may be overestimating your skills. If you've never worked on a team of developers on a real product before, the chances are good that you are not as good as you think you are. There are a lot of things that you can get away with or don't hurt you much on smaller, personal projects that are absolute deal breakers in a professional environment. If someone claims to be very good at a language I'm familiar with, I'm going to ask a lot of deep questions and judge code samples much more stringently. Or you could have a bad personality or come across poorly in interviews. Are you getting phone screens? In persons? Or are you just not getting call backs from submissions? Do you have a CV you can share, or at least a link to a github repo? New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 05:01
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I'm getting rejected before phone screens of which I've had two. Been applying for about a month now. And I know I'm not a very good programmer but I've built and read a bit. And yes my personality is terrible and I'm horribly bitter and depressed but that has nothing to do with it!
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Nov 18, 2019 05:19
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post ur resume
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Nov 18, 2019 05:28
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blah e And like, all I want rn is to escape retail, get paid $15+/hr, and maybe listen to books and sit down while I work. Anne Bonny fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 05:41
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:If you've never worked on a team of developers on a real product before, the chances are good that you are not as good as you think you are. Oh man, the code I inherited has all the hallmarks of being written by somebody who has never had to decipher somebody else's code. lovely variable names and long-rear end functions everywhere. I'm constantly worrying that being the only developer on my team is going to make my code slide backward into the muck.
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Nov 18, 2019 06:38
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If that's the metric I think I'm okay. I've studied object-oriented design some amount and internalized code complete. I'm really big on making sure that everything is organized, documented, readable, flexible, reusable, maintainable, extendable and I polish goddamit as if someone else were going to be working on my projects with me. Clean design is very important to me. IDK how to communicate that though. Or if that even counts for anything, I have no idea what the standard is for entry-level developers.
Anne Bonny fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 06:58
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Anne Bonny posted:blah Sorry! This document is not publicly available. The owner has set this document to private. You will not be able to read it unless the owner changes it to public on their uploads page, or sends you a direct link.
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Nov 18, 2019 07:09
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fixed
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Nov 18, 2019 07:12
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So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, and self-teaching is bad and bootcamps are bad and CS degrees are bad but at least accepted by clueless HR but also ruinously expensive?
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Nov 18, 2019 08:15
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Spontaneous generation 
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Nov 18, 2019 08:37
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nepotism and in-group selection
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Nov 18, 2019 08:47
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hailthefish posted:So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, and self-teaching is bad and bootcamps are bad and CS degrees are bad but at least accepted by clueless HR but also ruinously expensive? Desperate senior developers
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Nov 18, 2019 09:22
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I've been working in development for around 2,5 years now, but have switched jobs more than I should during that time and as a side effect haven't really specialized in anything or learned as much as I'd like - truth is I still consider myself pretty junior, but I keep getting contacted for senior positions. I'm always honest about where I'm at in interviews, have explanations for all my job switching (two because of moving to a different city and then moving back, two because they were bad fits that actively harmed my mental health). Currently unemployed because my last job was so chaotic I had a breakdown, no formalized QA whatsoever before releasing to customers and putting out fires as a direct result of that on a daily basis + knowledge siloing all around. I'm not posting for particular advice necessarily, more to just sort of vent I guess, but if anyone wants to have a look at my CV and tell me why it's bad that'd be cool (I don't think it's actually bad, I get called to interviews several times a week). It's here. (I'm not super happy with the "Very Good / Good / Basic" scale of skills on there because I think I'm overselling myself, but I can't exactly go "Bad / Worse / Terrible") Anyway today I've got an interview with a place I looked up on Glassdoor (a service I keep forgetting exists, being in Sweden and all), and it looks... bad.  Still going to the interview 'cause it's good practice and also because they might have changed in those two years, I guess? I mean some people can handle that kind of environment it seems, but I sure can't!
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Nov 18, 2019 11:43
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^ is putting your face on your resume a thing in europe?Anne Bonny posted:blah its a good start, id pad out the skills section with things like git, css, mysql, etc. also i would throw around technologies more in the projects section. what kind of positions are you applying for? hailthefish posted:So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, and self-teaching is bad and bootcamps are bad and CS degrees are bad but at least accepted by clueless HR but also ruinously expensive? internships barkbell fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 13:16
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barkbell posted:^ is putting your face on your resume a thing in europe?
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Nov 18, 2019 13:43
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hailthefish posted:So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, and self-teaching is bad and bootcamps are bad and CS degrees are bad but at least accepted by clueless HR but also ruinously expensive? Poached from less glamorous companies. Me and my coworker get the same recruiters from Google, Amazon, and MS hitting us up for interviews. We're both ~3 years in and started as fresh grads. Our company basically hires anyone with a CS degree and puts them in a hold-your-hand extended internship for a year, and we've also been hiring bootcampers here and there. My impression is that everyone a year in here gets papered by all the big tech companies for interviews. Once you get in, you're in, but the market has to be absolutely flooded with fresh grads right now. CS programs were over crowded when I was in school, and someone my coworker interviewed said they wrote a program to DDOS their school's registration website to get in to their classes. Silly me, I just used a page watcher that sent an alarm when 0 spots open changed.
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Nov 18, 2019 14:14
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Anne Bonny posted:I have an Associate degree. And I'm very good with Java and C++, having written a few android apps, one of which is complex, native, and published. I've also written a few desktop applications with Qt and I know some very rudimentary JavaScript, HTML, Python, etc. I keep getting flat out rejected for dev jobs. Are you looking for help or a place to vent?
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Nov 18, 2019 14:37
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Anne Bonny posted:
With this attitude you're not going to make it past the phone screen. Are you working on this as well?
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Nov 18, 2019 14:38
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Anne Bonny posted:I'm really big on making sure that everything is organized, documented, readable, flexible, reusable, maintainable, extendable and I polish goddamit as if someone else were going to be working on my projects with me. Clean design is very important to me. 
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Nov 18, 2019 14:58
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hailthefish posted:So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, No one said that. But "very good" is largely subjective. Very good relative to who? If you're inexperienced, it comes across as hubris, ego, and ignorance. Basically saying you're very good or rating your skills on a scale of 1 to X and putting them closer to X is asking for problems in interviews. Don't say you're good, show you're good (with a track record of success, code samples, published projects that are widely used, etc.)
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Nov 18, 2019 14:58
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Woebin posted:I've been working in development for around 2,5 years now, but have switched jobs more than I should during that time and as a side effect haven't really specialized in anything or learned as much as I'd like - truth is I still consider myself pretty junior, but I keep getting contacted for senior positions. I'm always honest about where I'm at in interviews, have explanations for all my job switching (two because of moving to a different city and then moving back, two because they were bad fits that actively harmed my mental health). Currently unemployed because my last job was so chaotic I had a breakdown, no formalized QA whatsoever before releasing to customers and putting out fires as a direct result of that on a daily basis + knowledge siloing all around. I don't have enough experience evaluating European style CVs vs American style resumes to compare I'm afraid. However for your glassdoor link remember that's just a single review and is 2 years ago. From a former employee you really can't take that as indicative of anything other than people don't like to post about the company. Maybe that's a cultural thing that glass door isn't widely used in Sweden?
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Nov 18, 2019 15:13
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huhu posted:Are you looking for help or a place to vent? Since I came here for noob advice and all I'm getting is smug eyerolls, a place to vent. gently caress you, rear end in a top hat
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Nov 18, 2019 16:16
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Goons are often only incidentally helpful. I know I’m sure as gently caress not.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:20
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Anne Bonny posted:Since I came here for noob advice and all I'm getting is smug eyerolls, a place to vent. gently caress you, rear end in a top hat Well, I came in genuinely hoping to help, but it looks like the resume is gone. In general: for a first job in the field, you're going to need to push through a bunch of rejection. The whole "I can't get these recruiters to stop cold calling me" thing is limited to people with big names on their resume - which only happens at the entry level for people in big-name CS programs. It is not normal. Your first job will be the hardest one to get. Don't get discouraged if you have a single percentage digit response rate; hiring is a weird messy process that encourages false rejects as a risk control mechanism, and it's not a rejection of you as a person. And, seriously, drop the negativity as much as possible. It can be hard, especially if you're working through a ton of rejection from jobs and don't have easy access to resources like therapy. But, it's worth working through it. Hiring is going to come down to one or more human beings making the decision that they would like to work with you. Some of that will be based on your technical competence. But, as an entry level dev, your skills aren't at a point where you can say "you aren't getting this from anybody else, so suck it up and deal with me being unpleasant." Even senior people who can pull that and still get hired don't tend to stick around. You don't have to be super gregarious and bubbly, but if you can't at least put on a mask of "I would like to work with you," you'll eventually find yourself very good at passing tech screens but hearing a lot of "sorry, you were shortlisted but we went with someone else." E: hailthefish posted:So where exactly do junior developers come from if nobody who hasn't ever been employed on a development team working on a real project before could ever possibly be good enough to be hired as one, and self-teaching is bad and bootcamps are bad and CS degrees are bad but at least accepted by clueless HR but also ruinously expensive? The point isn't "you're not good enough for a junior role." It's "you don't have enough experience to even evaluate your own skills yet, and if you think you're hot poo poo you're probably wrong." Junior people are unskilled at a lot of things, and that is perfectly fine and good! That's why they're junior. When they get solid practice at those skills, they won't be junior any more. Some of this is also just coming from people who have had to deal with a lot of junior guys - and they are, almost to a person, guys - who are convinced that everything they do is perfect, humility is for other people, and everyone around them clearly just isn't listening to their brilliance. The people who do that usually are bright, have at least one skill that's well above par for their level (typically either the ability to crank out a working proof of concept very quickly, or to build an elaborately architected stack of beautiful algorithmic work, but never both at once), and are incredibly difficult to deal with. There's a bit of a balance to strike between the hubris of saying "this is difficult, but I'm absolutely confident I can learn it along the way" and the humility of "I know there's a ton of things I don't even know that I don't know," and it's not easy to convey both at once over text. So you might see people pushing back against things you don't feel and haven't seen yet. What can I say; the internet makes everybody stupid. Space Gopher fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 16:47
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Anne Bonny posted:Since I came here for noob advice and all I'm getting is smug eyerolls, a place to vent. gently caress you, rear end in a top hat I was offering genuine guidance. Others were as well. If you are this thin-skinned, you are going to have trouble succeeding in any career in any industry.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:51
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Anne Bonny posted:If that's the metric I think I'm okay. I've studied object-oriented design some amount and internalized code complete. I'm really big on making sure that everything is organized, documented, readable, flexible, reusable, maintainable, extendable and I polish goddamit as if someone else were going to be working on my projects with me. Clean design is very important to me. IDK how to communicate that though. Or if that even counts for anything, I have no idea what the standard is for entry-level developers. Reading and applying good texts (to reel off a few: Clean Code, Code Complete, Head First OO Analysis and Design, Effective Java) is a great way to demonstrate "passion" for the field and show you will take responsibility for your self-development. I've got a section for it in my CV and bring it up at interview, along the lines of "we're fortunate to have a lot of great learning resources in our field, I've focused on a lot of areas I hear senior engineers say are important: clean code, source control, good testing practices, ..." and segue into some books I've read and side-projects. It's been my experience that this comes across really well in interview, and you should definitely plug it. Speaking of which, have you used source control tools (e.g. Git) and any test frameworks (e.g., in Java land, JUnit and Mockito)? If you have, they're worth mentioning in your resume, and if you haven't then learn them so you can. They'll help establish your credibility as a junior dev. Anne Bonny posted:And yes my personality is terrible and I'm horribly bitter and depressed but that has nothing to do with it! Presumably you have a happy, enthusiastic mask you put on like the rest of us? This is the one you wear at interview, where a bit of enthusiasm in your speech patterns goes a long way with rapport / making interviewers like you  I've got a lot of sympathy for someone going through the stressful application/interviewing process while working retail and I don't think we should poo poo on them ITT. e: New Yorp New Yorp posted:I was offering genuine guidance. Others were as well. the thread is being a bit cunty tho Daviclond fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 16:55
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Hughlander posted:I don't have enough experience evaluating European style CVs vs American style resumes to compare I'm afraid. However for your glassdoor link remember that's just a single review and is 2 years ago. From a former employee you really can't take that as indicative of anything other than people don't like to post about the company. Maybe that's a cultural thing that glass door isn't widely used in Sweden? The interview went well, even! They said they usually like to hire more senior devs than me but got a good impression otherwise, and I got a good impression of the interviewer and what he said about the way they work. Got a technical interview lined up for next week!
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Nov 18, 2019 18:36
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Anne Bonny posted:Since I came here for noob advice and all I'm getting is smug eyerolls, a place to vent. gently caress you, rear end in a top hat Lol. I asked you several questions to begin helping you and you ignored most of them. Have fun getting a job with your awful attitude.
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Nov 18, 2019 19:03
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I’m sure if you can’t handle them at their worst you don’t deserve them at their best.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:33
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You're an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:14
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To be fair, getting my first job was the most stressful, degrading and depressing thing I've ever done in my life. It doesn't surprise me that it makes people very much on edge.
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Nov 19, 2019 02:09
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