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AccountSupervisor posted:You better have a strong argument and the guts to carry it through some challenges if youre gunna call something objectively bad because thats a hell of a criticism to level at anything involving art and entertainment, bud. The argument is strong in my opinion, and I've made it, exhaustively. Respond to it or ignore it as you prefer! I don't mind either one at all as long as you're not massively aggro about it. Nail Rat posted:I have to believe the secret leader of the US would know that Dan Dreiberg has been locked up since 1995. We just barely have any D-names in this show. Realistically he's saying "Save me, dammit"
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Nov 18, 2019 22:04
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feedmyleg posted:Just a thought: with cloning rife in this universe, Nostalgia becomes a way for genetic copies of a person to also retain their memories. That could have some implications on the plot. Is there any chance that someone we've seen looks like a different person but actually has the same brain/memories as their other self? Probably not, but it could mean that Trieu isn't actually who she seems—or anyone else, for that matter. This is a super cool idea, I hope they do more with it.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:06
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Next week's episode is going to have some massively cool connections to Jon's entire-life-at-once narrations when Night lives through William's entire life Probably going to be a literal Bottle Episode but a good one at that
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Nov 18, 2019 22:08
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General Dog posted:Really the only bad cliffhanger is one that's just a cheap misdirect and doesn't end up moving the plot forward in any way. If LG is kidnapped and taken somewhere else, then that's fine. If he's killed, that's kind of a weird way to off him, but it's not cheap. If they show up and he's already left the house and the next time we see him he just says "boy, I just had a close call", then that is kind of cheap. Also, every single episode of True Blood would end in a cheap cliffhanger, where some character would suddenly open a door and burst through with a stake or a knife or a gun or something.... DUN DUN DUUNNNN Only for the next episode to start and... nah it was just a misunderstanding everything's cool. They pulled that like literally 30 times, its insane.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:12
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Despera posted:I just spent 10$ to tell you the Jupiter facing side of Europa would experience enough radiation to kill you easily in a day. Yeah, IIRC Ganymeade is the only Galilean moon that doesn't have lethal rad levels.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:13
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massive spider posted:I just realised Looking Glass cannot be a psychic because the entire point of his mask is to block psychic influence. his purported ability to see lies came about because he's just that paranoid from the time someone lied to him and the world ended. Good catch though.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:22
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Madurai posted:Yeah, IIRC Ganymeade is the only Galilean moon that doesn't have lethal rad levels. Deporting Veidt to the far end of the Solar System still seems like far more work than a couple of bullets in the dome.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:25
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Its kinda dumb he has to use a catapult to escape when he could just walk for a long distance and be outside.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:25
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What was his exact line about it being paradise? Was it that he was told it would be paradise before he got there, or that once he got there he thought it was paradise?
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Nov 18, 2019 22:27
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:The argument is strong in my opinion, and I've made it, exhaustively. Respond to it or ignore it as you prefer! I don't mind either one at all as long as you're not massively aggro about it. I have zero issue with you not liking cliff hangers, thats called subjectivety, its your personal preference. I take issue with you calling them objectively bad, which is almost an impossible and unverifiable stance to take in the case of narrative structures. Theres literally no way you can "prove" your argument to be factually true, therefore it cannot be objective. Cliffhangers can absolutely be cheap and essentially marketing devices to hook you into the next episode, which I absolutely understand being frustrating and lame. I dont really think that was the case here as Im not sure how they could have logically continued that or left out that moment without over extending this episode or structurally sacrificing the next episode. It felt like proper ambiguity and an appropriate end point and start of a story thread that is most likely going to be a bit more complicated than "they killed Looking Glass". That to me was a good example of how you congruently end the current episode narrative of "Looking Glass finding out the truth" while starting a new plot thread of "7K has nefarious and possibly violent intentions for Looking Glass". It wouldnt have made sense to me to start an episode with that moment because it is directly tied to that specific episodes narrative arc and carries that into whatever the next chapter of it is. Its an intersection, not a cheap cliffhanger.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:28
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Literally every episode that HBO does and has been in every single watchman episode is they always end the show in what the gently caress is happpening moment. It's nothing special its just their gimmick.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:32
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I'm really curious what the final viewership numbers for this show is going to be because if the actual Watchmen show is out-performed by Watchmen For Idiots (The Boys) I'm going to be incredibly disappointed.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:35
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Nearly every episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm ends with Larry in a humiliating situation, and yet at the beginning of the next there's never any explanation for how he extracted himself from it!
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Nov 18, 2019 22:35
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Tenzarin posted:Literally every episode that HBO does and has been in every single watchman episode is they always end the show in what the gently caress is happpening moment. It's nothing special its just their gimmick. I dont even think its their "gimmick" its a pretty common narrative structure for serialized TV and a fairly accepted writing method of ending single episode arcs while introducing the start point of the next arc.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:35
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HBO really uses it alot. When every episode ends with some special thing, its never special.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:37
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being fooled into getting naked and then having it followed by one of the worst unexpected trips of your life but having it revealed to be somewhat true is a pretty good bit
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Nov 18, 2019 22:39
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:The argument is strong in my opinion, and I've made it, exhaustively. The problem is that you haven't really, you just keep insisting they're bad and lazy without actually laying out your reasoning. Fine if you don't like them but you've made some really audacious statements about the creatives behind the show itt
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Nov 18, 2019 22:47
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Tenzarin posted:Its kinda dumb he has to use a catapult to escape when he could just walk for a long distance and be outside. The ranger, presumably, would stop him if he just tried to walk out.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:00
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AccountSupervisor posted:I have zero issue with you not liking cliff hangers, thats called subjectivety, its your personal preference. I take issue with you calling them objectively bad, which is almost an impossible and unverifiable stance to take in the case of narrative structures. Theres literally no way you can "prove" your argument to be factually true, therefore it cannot be objective. This was an interesting perspective, thanks! Sleeveless posted:I'm really curious what the final viewership numbers for this show is going to be because if the actual Watchmen show is out-performed by Watchmen For Idiots (The Boys) I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. These two franchises have absolutely nothing in common. Colonel Whitey posted:The problem is that you haven't really, you just keep insisting they're bad and lazy without actually laying out your reasoning. Fine if you don't like them but you've made some really audacious statements about the creatives behind the show itt The creatives behind this show are great! They've made something wonderful. The current episode's cliffhanger ending is genuinely my one grievance, since even The Boys never once relied on it. (The Boys is a show where I wouldn't complain at ALL about a cliffhanger) Again, my reasoning behind cliffhangers being bad is they're overdone, simple, and try to create un-earned tension. Maybe they were novel once, but they don't even have their intended effect anymore. Imagine a movie where every single scene had a Jaws Dolly Zoom. The director intends to create a sense of disorientation, but after the 2nd or 3rd you'd just say "oh I get what the director is trying to do here" and have your immersion broken by it instead. At worst, you use them to shore up a weak ending, which the last episode did not have. At best they lay the foundation for a new story arc - but we established that the 7K has nefarious plans for LG when they abducted him and told him that. It's just there for Jim and Joe to chat about at the water cooler on monday, which is a shame because there's a lot of actual amazing content from the episode they could be discussing instead
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Nov 18, 2019 23:00
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Keene seemed like he just puts the mask on inside the 7k hq because it was protocol, not because he was hiding his identity. Similar to the police HQ.  LK asks "Senator are you even trying to disguise your voice." It seemed obvious that it means keene just got so used to putting it on he forgot and was basically wearing it like you would a tie or a hard hat at work. So,the 7k def know who he is.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:02
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The Dave posted:FWIW I thought it was presented and supposed to be taken the same way Caros did. It didn't seem like he was doing much at all to hide himself in the HQ. I know, I'm not trying to have a go at you guys. I'm just honestly not sure how that scene could comes across that way; it seemed pretty clear cut to me. Everyone consumes media differently though so that's why I was trying to explain my perspective. Sorry if I sounded like a bit of a oval office, was not intended.  Edit: I don't really agree with the idea that the editing was meant for a stupid audience either, it just feels like some of you are taking the wrong ideas away from the scenes you're being shown. General Dog posted:I don't know if editing was overseen by someone different or what, but when LG turns around and sees he's in the the 7th Kav chapel, and we get the flashback to the video, it's absolutely assuming we're stupid. They showed us the video again 15-20 minutes earlier and established the characters saying "we need to find this church", and then even included another scene of people looking at pictures of sanctuaries and discussing how you discern which is which denomination. We don't need that cut, and if they're trying to show us LG's thought process to establish what a good detective is, they need to do it with something less obvious. The chapel flashback comes across like a Hot Fuzz gag. I don't know why you guys seem to think they're trying to reinforce the "hey this is the church". To me it felt like they were trying to show you that the entire thing was set up specifically by the 7th Cavalry to show you there actually wasn't a church that the police could find; either implying they knew how the police worked or providing more information to back up the wide spread conspiracy theory. It's more "hey, look this isn't a real church; it's a set."  During the scene they specifically focus the camera on the lighting rigs and recording equipment set up around the church and show you that the police aren't going to be able to find it. They drive this home even further by having the scene where the two masked officers are asking how they identify one church from another. It's like you think the show is treating you as stupid but you're partially oblivious to what it's actually trying to show you and just kneejerk assume the worst. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 23:05
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There's also the potential that in order to watch that viedt video you have to have a high level security clearance and be sworn in or something, which is a believable way of how members of congress could know but it not be generally be known by the public. Keene even said it took him forever to pirate a copy
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Nov 18, 2019 23:07
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beanieson posted:I wish message boards like this existed in the 80s so I could go back and read theories and complaints and whatever from readers of the comic as they were getting it on a monthly basis. Try digging around some usenet archives, I bet you could find the comic being discussed in realtime.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:14
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KoRMaK posted:There's also the potential that in order to watch that viedt video you have to have a high level security clearance and be sworn in or something, which is a believable way of how members of congress could know but it not be generally be known by the public. Keene even said it took him forever to pirate a copy Keene mentioned he was assigned to the Appropriations Committee as reason for his having been shown the tape; the US probably pours a lot of public money into Dimensional Security initiatives or squidfall trackers or whatever which they know mean nothing and do nothing, so it's a convenient way to rubber-stamp a billion dollar appropriation that really gets funneled into, say, massive conspiracies with Tulsa at it's center
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Nov 18, 2019 23:25
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Also just because some people seem unsure, there is some form of Psychic power within the Watchmen World. I haven't read the comics myself but I read parts of the wiki and peteypedia to fill me in on parts of the show I didn't fully understand. Veldt intentionally used the brain of a well known psychic and cloned it into this massive squid. There is also a side effect of his teleportation and it's that when the target is teleported into another piece of matter a large explosion occurs. So both a physical shockwave and a psychic spreads out from the point of the explosion/the squid dying, supposedly the majority of people in the psychic blast zone are killed and the ones that survived experience nightmares, such as the ones Mirror Guy experiences in the show or at least alludes to experiencing. Edit: I don't know if people actually manifest them, maybe someone more familar with the comic can answer that. I'm assuming they must do in some sense though since he supposedly took the brain of a "famous" psychic. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 23:28
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Cool stuff in this, like the glass night thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQZ3rI1Z5J8 when the physic blast in the funhouse first started, i thought it was just going to be a severe hallucination and that all the mirrors would be intact when it stopped but lots of dead people would be around. Question for all the goons who defintely don't suffer from face blindness - what was the look on the girl who stole Wade's close? IT was like... almost excitement? But terrified? Kinda looked like the joker or something
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Nov 18, 2019 23:35
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I'm pretty sure she just died screaming in pain, similar to how you seem him work his jaw in the funhouse as the blast hits.KoRMaK posted:Keene seemed like he just puts the mask on inside the 7k hq because it was protocol, not because he was hiding his identity. I agree that the scene and the organization with their masks is meant to be shown as a parrell to the police force. If you listen to how he speaks and even the words he uses they are intentionally different when he has the mask on and when he has it off. He also clears everyone out of the room before taking his mask off and changing his voice and then he puts his mask on again when he leaves. While I agree with you it's familarity with wearing the mask, I'm pretty certain he's keeping his identity a secret from them. Like I said earlier you can hear the disdain in his voice when he speaks about the members and how he has to corral them. I would assume there are cells all over the country that are similar to the one in Tulsa where they wear masks at their meetings and probably obsecure their identity at some level. This one is just full of redneck yokels that the senator has little patience for and are seen as an extreme outlier; he even covers that in their discussion. In the end we'll just have to see how it pans out I guess. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 23:37
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I know it's already been said, but, drat, they did the squid thing. HBO fought a lawsuit for John Oliver against some rich coal Barron and depicted the one of the looniest third act reveals of a story that was already accepted by the original audience. I don't like engaging with brands but it seems like they are doin ok. Meanwhile, Netflix pulled an ep of Patriot Act over blowback. Lol can you imagine never reading the comics or knowing that and watching this show and going "wait wtf. That's it, I'm turning this trash off." They telegraphed the loonieness ahead of time I'm just glad they seem to be going all in. Can't wait to watch this with my gf who only has seen the movie like 10 years ago and seeing her reaction. When glass is eating beans and watching American hero story, he seems to have the same reaction that most of us had at the sex scene. Like, just... hmmm The EDS tests glass was doing basically feels like an ocd kind of reaction. Like flipping a light switch the right number of times - ultimately pointless
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Nov 18, 2019 23:48
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Trump posted:Try digging around some usenet archives, I bet you could find the comic being discussed in realtime. Maybe this will work: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.arts.comics/watchmen%7Csort:date/rec.arts.comics/8i-CwZGRg10/I_gwlGuMoYUJ literally the only post I can find archived from when it was being published. Usenet archives are poo poo now. Google ruined them for some reason.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:49
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Plot twist, Manhattan didnt actually kill rorshach, he teleported him to pluto. Calling it now!
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Nov 18, 2019 23:50
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KoRMaK posted:I know it's already been said, but, drat, they did the squid thing. Last night I was thinking about some tweet from a couple of weeks ago, to the effect of "Dunno where this is gonna end up, but can't deny that Lindelof didn't swing for the fences" Also for the rest of my life, the Dr. Manhattan kills Rorschach panels will be the ligma balls joke to me
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Nov 18, 2019 23:51
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Plot twist, Manhattan didnt actually kill rorshach, he teleported him to pluto. Calling it now! He also simultaneously teleported the contents of a Trader Joe’s salsa aisle to Antarctica to cover his tracks.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:58
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Raxivace posted:Yeah for real. I started rereading the comic for the first time in over a hundred years the other day and it happens way more than I remembered. The pages with the Paglicacci joke are a good example. One panel, close up on someone's face. Next panel, same person's face X years earlier. Subsequent panels, relevant flashback scene. A bunch of times. TV series pulling similar technique is absolutely on brand.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:01
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Unkempt posted:Maybe this will work: There were production delays and issues shipped late- people would have been bitching about that. I don’t think that many people at the time were aware that Moore and Gibbons reworking of the Charlton Action Heroes that nobody liked would have such a satisfying payoff. The text supplements exist because DC had trouble selling ad space for their Blue Space Penis book. They had to fill it with something. Also, on Earth-HBO the Republicans are apparently AOK with a very liberal Democratic administration spending billions a year on defenses against fictional space squids when they are fully aware that said squids are part of the Veidt Power Movement and no such risk exists? Their Mitch McConnell must be hosed up. Also, Vietnam has 2x the population of California which means it has around 100 Presidential Electors and 1/5 of The House of Representatives is Vietnamese. America’s Quebec.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:09
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feedmyleg posted:As has been pointed out, Veidt calls Dr. Manhattan "Jon" throughout the comic. And yeah, for sure he's trying to be saved with interdimensional tech rather than space tech. Well, DR is easier to spell with corpses than JON. One fewer letter to make
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Nov 19, 2019 00:09
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LG eating beans from a can watching superhero TV alone on the couch while wearing tin foil on his head, and sleeps in a bunker, also making bad romantic choices. No wonder goons love him Lindelof clearly has certain themes he loves to tell in his stories: religion, faith, technology, trauma, and dreams if next week's teaser is anything to go by. The premise for this show seems well suited to those ideas and his story telling. Seeing how that is, I can see why people could outright detest Lindelof's writing. It's easy to fixate on certain elements that make no real sense and out of place like the big blue dildo. Considering how heavily religion plays in all his writing, if you look at the show through the lens of how religious texts typically read, the weirdness tracks quite well. Things mentioned aren't explained later and stories aren't always tied up in a neat bow or given any clear meaning. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I appreciate there's an element of chaos and mystery to it all, because it means the writers trust the audience to come up with their own meanings, or none at all. Besides, life is just a desperate attempt to find meaning in a universe that is not interested in revealing any.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:15
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Ugly In The Morning posted:He also simultaneously teleported the contents of a Trader Joe’s salsa aisle to Antarctica to cover his tracks. Thank you, this was a plot hole for me. Dr Manhattan knows that we were reading his actions, he know he was in a comic book, so he just had to have the salsa and strawberry jelly because he knew we wouldn't be able to take a closer look. Unkempt posted:Maybe this will work: tin can made man posted:Keene mentioned he was assigned to the Appropriations Committee as reason for his having been shown the tape; the US probably pours a lot of public money into Dimensional Security initiatives or squidfall trackers or whatever which they know mean nothing and do nothing, so it's a convenient way to rubber-stamp a billion dollar appropriation that really gets funneled into, say, massive conspiracies with Tulsa at it's center So keene wants to keep the peace? I thought he maybe wanted to blow the lid off the conspiracy. Guess I was wrong I like that glass goes back for the new EDS. Does he rethink that maybe he was lied to by keene? if one thing was a giant lie, why cant another? is he just not ready to let go? does he have a different plan for it? is it to keep up appereances, because if he suddenly got rid of it and stopped being the sky is falling squid guy might it raise suspicion? I like his delightfully midwest-ish house too, I feel like I've been in that garage. For a moment, I thought the baksetball at the church set was manhattan loving with glass, kind of like how the car dropped nearly on laurie. Very confusing couple moments, so many thoughts flash by in an instant during so many moments of this show while I try to triangulate things I know and things I'm filling in. I'm pretty sure the show is good - it stimulates in a way that not many stories do.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:16
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:Also, on Earth-HBO the Republicans are apparently AOK with a very liberal Democratic administration spending billions a year on defenses against fictional space squids when they are fully aware that said squids are part of the Veidt Power Movement and no such risk exists? Their Mitch McConnell must be hosed up. Nieuw Amsterdam posted:
My posts itt are getting longer... sorry. Hey question for ya, wtf is the symbol next to xinjiang here? 
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Nov 19, 2019 00:20
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Sleeveless posted:Nonsense, Watchmen would never have a disaffected man who always wears a mask and sees the world in moral absolutism and is shaped by a severe trauma in his life be blown away immediately after having his worldview shattered by the revelation about the origin of the extradimensional squid attacks. Hey listen, he might have a ton of similarities with Rorshach and they're very not subtle but he isn't a total one to one! I just want more of Tim Blake Nelson. All I can remember seeing of him was Buster Scruggs and this show, and he's fantastic.
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Nov 19, 2019 00:21
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:Deporting Veidt to the far end of the Solar System still seems like far more work than a couple of bullets in the dome. 
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Nov 19, 2019 00:22
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