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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Lol. This isn't remotely true. Some challenger companies adopted it because it makes sense as a business model when you desperately need anyone to play your game at all to try and grow it. It's not even close to standard in the TT industry and it doesn't make sense for a market leader like GW. "The rules should be free!" also totally devalues the actual process of creating rules, which is a) a skilled job and b) not actually free. It's the same mentality that demands stuff like RPG sourcebooks being 400 page hardbacks with beautiful art and slick design and comprehensive error-free technical writing but also to never cost more than $50 like they used to a decade ago. The bigger barrier to entry for GW is not the cost of buying books (which is trivial for people who can afford this dumb hobby in the first place), it's the rules being spread across multiple different books and interacting in weird ways, especially in an era where they sell printed rules which have been subject to repeated FAQ and errata. If you buy the Salamanders book today (a publication less than a month old) you'll find that two of your key stratagems work completely differently to how they're printed, and the update to that is contained in an FAQ document on a website somewhere. Digital subscription neatly solves this and still generates them revenue.
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Nov 20, 2019 08:49
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Corrode posted:This isn't remotely true. Some challenger companies adopted it because it makes sense as a business model when you desperately need anyone to play your game at all to try and grow it. It's not even close to standard in the TT industry and it doesn't make sense for a market leader like GW. "The rules should be free!" also totally devalues the actual process of creating rules, which is a) a skilled job and b) not actually free. It's the same mentality that demands stuff like RPG sourcebooks being 400 page hardbacks with beautiful art and slick design and comprehensive error-free technical writing but also to never cost more than $50 like they used to a decade ago. You’re wrong about this for a lot of reasons, including whether it’s a barrier to entry, despite not thinking about book-sharing/pirating. I also really don’t see how it devaluates the process of creating rules? Do you mean by players? Because that is stupid as hell, given the myriad of examples where this is not the case, or do you mean internally in the GW organization? Because that’s really silly considering GWs history with rules writing - if anything they’re an example of the opposite of what you’re suggesting. On top of that, it’s not like GW are known to to a beacon of amazing rules writing, some would say they’re known for the opposite, though I personally think they are fine now. What they’re definitely know for is the coolest fluff, the best models, oh, and nickel and dimeing every tiny little thing (though it’s much much much better now), as well as being litigatious, being assholes with regards to a lot of pricing issues, being incredibly draconian with their IP (and stupid, e.g. ogor, astra militarum, etc. etc.). In addition, you are assuming that the money people would save on books, wouldn’t be spent on more profitable parts, such as plastic. I agree that the spread out nature of the rules is beyond ridiculous at this point, but a mandatory 10$ app subscription is definitely not a good solution to that problem.
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Nov 20, 2019 09:33
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Revelation 2-13 posted:You’re wrong about this for a lot of reasons, including whether it’s a barrier to entry, despite not thinking about book-sharing/pirating. I also really don’t see how it devaluates the process of creating rules? Do you mean by players? Because that is stupid as hell, given the myriad of examples where this is not the case, or do you mean internally in the GW organization? Because that’s really silly considering GWs history with rules writing - if anything they’re an example of the opposite of what you’re suggesting. Any time someone demands work to be done for them for free, they're devaluing it. If you think the rules should be well-written, well-tested, and also available to you for no cost, then by definition you are saying that the labour that went into creating it has no value to you.
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Nov 20, 2019 09:40
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Corrode posted:Any time someone demands work to be done for them for free, they're devaluing it. If you think the rules should be well-written, well-tested, and also available to you for no cost, then by definition you are saying that the labour that went into creating it has no value to you. This isn't really true sorry. If you did the maths and looked at the data and saw most new players spent £80 and the books they need and then bought 10 boxes of models in their first year, you could make the books free (or ridiculously cheap) and then increase the price of the models. I don't think that would be smart, but it's a similar model done with games consoles: the console itself is borderline loss making, it's sold as cheap as possible to draw you in. As it so happens I do sort of agree with the point that the market leader in this field doesn't have to give away its rulebooks for free. I think the problem is like you touched upon the endless FAQs and Errata that make the physical copies pretty much worthless rules wise. I think it would be good if, when you buy a physical copy, you get some sort of code that gives you an online "living" version with just the rules (no fluff) for free, along with permission to print it for personal use. Alternatively, stop loving things up so badly that you make balancing changes a month after you release something. Does GW have to do that though? No, people are still lining up to give them their money. It would be good if they did it though. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 11:09
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Kitchner posted:This isn't really true sorry. You're talking about a different thing here. A company choosing to offer loss leaders is a marketing tactic. Customers demanding to be given something for free is devaluing labour. And there is no way in the world that if the rules were suddenly free but the models cost more, customers wouldn't piss and moan about that fact, because they don't actually care about barriers to entry or the cost of the books (which, like I said, is pretty loving minimal for what they are, in any context - books generally, this hobby, hobbies in general). They want the thing but they don't value what it costs to make it. That's it. This exact same problem repeats itself across tabletop and video games - customers have higher expectations than ever, but also don't want to pay what it costs for people to make things that meet those expectations.
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Nov 20, 2019 11:25
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Piracy (and Battlescribe) seem to check the "Rules should be free" box for GW. They both add to the pool of players, making non-paying players into both potential customers and opponents. Even if they buy nothing but third-party figures and recasts, they still represent additional opportunity and pad out the community size. At this point it's essentially an unsanctioned "freemium" model. GW could stomp out Battlescribe or YouTube videos paging through new codexes in HD, or but they rarely act and that has to be E: Yeah that's explicitly deliberate. Good catch, the Chirurgeon. moths fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 13:43
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moths posted:Piracy (and Battlescribe) seem to check the "Rules should be free" box for GW. They both add to the pool of players, making non-paying players into both potential customers and opponents. what if I told you that the people who make youtube videos where they page through codexes get their books from Games Workshop before they are available for preorder
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Nov 20, 2019 14:37
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"Yo I didn't bring my codex but I brought 120 printouts of screenshots from a low-res youtube video at an awkward angle"
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Nov 20, 2019 14:47
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TheChirurgeon posted:what if I told you that the people who make youtube videos where they page through codexes get their books from Games Workshop before they are available for preorder Would people really do that? Just go online and post books for free?
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Nov 20, 2019 14:56
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Corrode posted:You're talking about a different thing here. A company choosing to offer loss leaders is a marketing tactic. Customers demanding to be given something for free is devaluing labour. And there is no way in the world that if the rules were suddenly free but the models cost more, customers wouldn't piss and moan about that fact, because they don't actually care about barriers to entry or the cost of the books (which, like I said, is pretty loving minimal for what they are, in any context - books generally, this hobby, hobbies in general). They want the thing but they don't value what it costs to make it. That's it. This exact same problem repeats itself across tabletop and video games - customers have higher expectations than ever, but also don't want to pay what it costs for people to make things that meet those expectations. I mean sure all consumers always say they want to spend less on stuff, but people here discussing whether or not we should be paying for hardcopy rulebooks that are outdated and irrelevant not even a month after they have come out, and having to cross reference like 6 books to have the most competitive army isn't really consumers just wanting to spend less. I think I just see the discussion here as what people's opinions are on what GW should be doing for GW's sake, wns your response is it would "de-value" the rulebook, and my explanation is that's not true, as many companies sell some items at cost or even give them away for free to draw in more people, and it's not seen as "less valuable" as a result. And of course people would piss and moan if you increase the prices of models, but as long as people are still buying them there's not much to worry about.
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Nov 20, 2019 16:12
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Giant Isopod posted:Full stats for the Triumph of Saint Katherine: Initially I wanted this to be some kind of Imperial Kali with a shitload of arms just shooting all over the place, but also the idea of a perpetual funeral procession crossing a battlefield rules too.
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Nov 20, 2019 16:25
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Have each proof-of-purchase for a box of mans give you $5-10 off a book, and you can stack them. I'll be expecting the check any day GW
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Nov 20, 2019 16:25
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Issuing a FAQ that reworks the content of the hardcopy rulebook does more to devalue the book than anything else. Onyx Path releases the digital books first, and incorporates errata and feedback before the physical copies go to print. It's such a better model than effectively selling a hardcover beta test as the final product.
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Nov 20, 2019 16:28
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I think about buying physical rules for this game and I start laughing before the end of the thought.
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Nov 20, 2019 16:33
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I think about buying physical rules for this game and I start laughing before the end of the thought. Ever since the SM FAQ I've gone strictly digital for 40K. I regret not doing it earlier.
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Nov 20, 2019 16:34
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moths posted:Issuing a FAQ that reworks the content of the hardcopy rulebook does more to devalue the book than anything else. Yeah, as it stands GW's physical rulebooks become nearly completely worthless so goddamn quickly that they aren't worth the cost
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Nov 20, 2019 16:38
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do the regular digital editions get patched or only the fancy appleos-only ones?
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Nov 20, 2019 16:39
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah, as it stands GW's physical rulebooks become nearly completely worthless so goddamn quickly that they aren't worth the cost The same is true of the digital copies, its just less trash laying around the house so its better....
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Nov 20, 2019 16:39
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the death thread is leaking
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Nov 20, 2019 16:42
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:do the regular digital editions get patched or only the fancy appleos-only ones? Only the fancy iOS ones, which is some bullshit
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Nov 20, 2019 17:43
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Remember when they released a mini rulebook 2 years in and didn't update a word of it, even tho the AoS one did
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Nov 20, 2019 17:48
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The Primephiston reveal is up
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Nov 20, 2019 17:59
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TheChirurgeon posted:Only the fancy iOS ones, which is some bullshit Supposedly the regular epubs do get updated, eventually. You just have to re-download it. At least that's what they told me when I asked.
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Nov 20, 2019 19:02
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That model is gorgeous
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Nov 20, 2019 19:52
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HE IS SO PRETTY! Oh hey the blood of baal too.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:08
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I really like rules books for my shelves. The Iterative nature of modern Warhammer both sucks and is necessary, as so many rules are released when they aren't fit to print. If they had well staffed play-testing teams or more people on the game development staff to read things over before they print, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. It's wild how much the rulebook will steer you wrong.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:10
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I've been out of the story for a while are the prime Marines entirely new guys the Imperium found in the back of a broom closet or are they just allowing the old marines in game for players as a stopgap while GW converts them all to something a little more accurate to their superhuman descriptions?
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Nov 20, 2019 20:16
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I've found the best course of action to be to print off the relevant datasheets and faction specific rules and put them in a binder. I don't like searching through ebooks while playing; I like having a physical copy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to haul along an entire forgeworld index for the 2 units in it I care about. I've found that this works really well, because I am generally playing an army that would be bringing 3-4 books, but when I have my binder I can re-arrange the datasheets as I please so that, for example, the certain named Inquisitor I'm bringing is right up at the front. I make sure all the page numbers are on each sheet so I can reference the real book if someone asks me to. (No one ever has) After a couple incidents with that guy I've also started printing off the FAQs and Errata and adding them to the back of the binder.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:21
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Radish posted:I've been out of the story for a while are the prime Marines entirely new guys the Imperium found in the back of a broom closet or are they just allowing the old marines in game for players as a stopgap while GW converts them all to something a little more accurate to their superhuman descriptions? I think the answer to both is 'yes'. Primaris is a new program from the imperium to make super super soldiers, and they're pretty much the only new stuff coming out for Space Marines. GW is curtain jerkin' about resetting 40k and have been doing it for a while. Rules and model lines are getting bloated. I wouldn't be surprised if most models get the AOS treatment and end up in Warhammer Legends whenever, what 9th edition is, drops. Giant Isopod posted:I've found the best course of action to be to print off the relevant datasheets and faction specific rules and put them in a binder. I don't like searching through ebooks while playing; I like having a physical copy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to haul along an entire forgeworld index for the 2 units in it I care about. I leave my books in my bag and play off of custom datasheets.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:24
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Radish posted:I've been out of the story for a while are the prime Marines entirely new guys the Imperium found in the back of a broom closet or are they just allowing the old marines in game for players as a stopgap while GW converts them all to something a little more accurate to their superhuman descriptions? I’ve not read the new lore but I think they probably discovered an STC or something that let them upgrade both the biological and technological components of the marines, making them bigger in the process.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:30
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GW wanted to update the Space Marine sculpts to be bigger/not power-squatting but were too scared to just go "here's how marines are now" for fear of a grognard riot. So they made some lovely new fluff about a OP mechanicus dude creating a recipe for Super Big Marines Who Are Even Better And Cooler (Please Buy Our New Models)
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Nov 20, 2019 20:37
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Anime_Otaku posted:I’ve not read the new lore but I think they probably discovered an STC or something that let them upgrade both the biological and technological components of the marines, making them bigger in the process. When Guilliman woke up he revealed that he had directed Belisarius Cawl to develop the primaris marines, and Cawl was happily doing so for the last however many thousand years and never said anything about it until Guilliman reappeared and told him to.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:40
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DotyManX posted:When Guilliman woke up he revealed that he had directed Belisarius Cawl to develop the primaris marines, and Cawl was happily doing so for the last however many thousand years and never said anything about it until Guilliman reappeared and told him to. I don't think its ever specifically linked but during the Horus Heresy it always felt the super marines Corax makes with the gene-tech knowledge Big E bequeaths him after Istvaan were precursor primaris.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:48
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Yeah, this is just straight up "A genius spent ten thousand years building better marines and tech for them".
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Nov 20, 2019 20:49
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I super appreciate GW making one of my whole armies obsolete and then making their replacements super OP so I'm either forced to buy them or play Necrons every time or invest in another new army. They can go Imperial Fist themselves
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Nov 20, 2019 21:52
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Cage Kicker posted:I super appreciate GW making one of my whole armies obsolete and then making their replacements super OP so I'm either forced to buy them or play Necrons every time or invest in another new army. The hell are you even talking about?
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Nov 20, 2019 22:02
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Booley posted:The hell are you even talking about? Smolmarines That being said WS run shrimpy youngmen as well as primaris, so its not all doom and gloom if you don't mind having a (presumably) yellow WS successor chaptor with a big black fist for its icon....
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Nov 20, 2019 22:09
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DandyLion posted:Smolmarines They're still entirely usable and have some advantages over primaris.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:10
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Booley posted:The hell are you even talking about? I think he means he had a smolmarine army, and a necron army, then left for a while and came back only to find all Marines are OP but GW wants him to buy bigmarines, and his other options are to, uh, play necrons or buy a third army edit: beaten I guess
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Nov 20, 2019 22:10
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I think I asked this months ago but the Awful app says the last time I checked this thread was 8800+ posts ago so I might as well ask it again: I’ve built the AdMech kill team box set as 3 Ruststalkers and 2 Infiltrators, and I’ve got the Forgebane box set’s AdMech stuff (10x Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard), what’s a solid way to build the Rangers/Vanguard so I’ve got some good options for a Kill Team if I’m using the Ruststalkers and Infiltrators as the core of the team?
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Nov 20, 2019 22:16
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