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fluffyDeathbringer posted:"easter eggs in video games are 100% analogous to text within a novel" is a take either so disingenuous and bad-faith that it converted the entirety of the vatican into atheism or so legitimately stupid that it lowered the average grades of whatever nation you live in Yeah no poo poo, lol. Makes me question the validity of everything else he spouts.
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Nov 20, 2019 17:47
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fluffyDeathbringer posted:"easter eggs in video games are 100% analogous to text within a novel" is a take either so disingenuous and bad-faith that it converted the entirety of the vatican into atheism or so legitimately stupid that it lowered the average grades of whatever nation you live in
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Nov 20, 2019 18:39
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fluffyDeathbringer posted:"easter eggs in video games are 100% analogous to text within a novel" is a take either so disingenuous and bad-faith that it converted the entirety of the vatican into atheism or so legitimately stupid that it lowered the average grades of whatever nation you live in Easter eggs in video games are 100% analogous to the specific text being whined about.
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Nov 20, 2019 19:00
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I'll never forget the scene where Samwise bumped into a wall and revealed a secret room with a tiny Saruman figurine in it
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Nov 20, 2019 19:26
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It's a pretty reasonable analogy. The Annotated Alice wouldn't exist if books couldn't have Easter eggs. (Not that I'm comparing Robert Jordan to Lewis Carroll.)
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Nov 20, 2019 20:06
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Yeah, this thread is nice and all, but you know what it really needs? Less content. 100% agreed my man
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Nov 20, 2019 20:17
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It's a pretty reasonable analogy. The Annotated Alice wouldn't exist if books couldn't have Easter eggs. (Not that I'm comparing Robert Jordan to Lewis Carroll.) I think there's a difference. Since the stuff in Wheel Of Time is not only in the main text but you're clearly expected to puzzle it out. They're allusions that end up not really mattering like, frankly, a lot of plot points that Wheel of Time built up over the years.
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Nov 20, 2019 20:48
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i have been posting on this forum for many years under the assumption that people who read genre fiction were simply very very stupid, but the level of writing at which you start talking about having to 'puzzle out' aspects of the text makes me genuinely concerned for their brains
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Nov 20, 2019 21:05
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CestMoi posted:i have been posting on this forum for many years under the assumption that people who read genre fiction were simply very very stupid, but the level of writing at which you start talking about having to 'puzzle out' aspects of the text makes me genuinely concerned for their brains That's quite literally what fan discussion looks like. No one cites these books for beautiful prose, it's all theories and labyrinthine plot speculation about who killed Asmodean or what new magic Rand learned to light his pipe (seriously). The cover of my copy of A Memory of Light literally lists several fansites. The intended discourse is not about the prose or the nature of evil, you're supposed to talk about what a Strong Independent Woman Aviendha is (for getting naked all the time). I linked the publisher reread because it's just regurgitating TVTropes. These books have no soul, but they have a ton of meaningless references and subplots that if put together reveals more pointless minutia to use in internet arguments.
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Nov 20, 2019 21:37
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CestMoi posted:i have been posting on this forum for many years under the assumption that people who read genre fiction were simply very very stupid, but the level of writing at which you start talking about having to 'puzzle out' aspects of the text makes me genuinely concerned for their brains Genre fiction is always gonna be plot-focused, but loads of fantasy really likes to obscure bits of the plot behind weird hints and insinuations. So instead of enjoying the writing on an aesthetic level it's written to be pored over, sifting it for every detail. Especially in the decade it takes most series to end. It's like if Agatha Christie waited 2000 pages to tell you whodunit
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Nov 20, 2019 21:42
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I don't think that's the point CestMoi is making. The idea that anything short of an unambiguous direct statement (like a barely veiled reference to nuclear war) constitutes a "puzzle" is what's farcical.
Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 21:51
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yeah its moree like if agatha christie books had a dot-to-dot on the first page that spelled the murderer's name
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Nov 20, 2019 22:04
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actually thatd be loving cool
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Nov 20, 2019 22:04
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God imagine the crosswords she could have written. I think you just read too much into the use of "puzzle" as the themes and subtext of WoT are paper thin. There's very little puzzling to be done about what any of it means. Who is the mysterious character who kills so-and-so through a door? That poo poo gets puzzled over extensively. (keeping with the murder mystery theme, it's an almost exact copy of how Orlando Bloom dies in Midsomer Murders. Opens door, shouts " it's you!", gets killed by unknown figure)
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Nov 20, 2019 22:43
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genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words?TheGreatEvilKing posted:That's quite literally what fan discussion looks like. No one cites these books for beautiful prose, it's all theories and labyrinthine plot speculation about who killed Asmodean or what new magic Rand learned to light his pipe (seriously). The cover of my copy of A Memory of Light literally lists several fansites. The intended discourse is not about the prose or the nature of evil, you're supposed to talk about what a Strong Independent Woman Aviendha is (for getting naked all the time). I linked the publisher reread because it's just regurgitating TVTropes. this is a great post by the way
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Nov 20, 2019 23:28
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Lex Neville posted:genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words?
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Nov 20, 2019 23:57
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i know people have been saying that the art of the story is dying forever, and i don't think it's dying, but i do think it's changing. i first started thinking about that in relation to webcomics (which is where you find people with genuine creative talent and drive who for whatever reason have not gone the novel route) where it seems like artists who go into it with a complete script they want to fulfill are the minority, and the majority are obsessive personalities who look like they have a direction but are actually just happy to spend 10-20 years delivering semi-regular illustrated rambling that goes nowhere. most webcomic people are into genre fiction, and we all know what genre fiction is like. then there's tv episodics which morphed into netflix, where it's all about the multi-season binge, and endless movie multiverses that never have to even hint at finishing, and online multiplayer games that can't finish, and successful kids' films where sequels can extend into double digits, and there is just this absolute dearth of endings in modern fiction
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Nov 21, 2019 00:04
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Lex Neville posted:genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words?
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Nov 21, 2019 00:05
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another great post. thanks sham @fauna i see what you mean but little of what i read myself seems to suffer from what you're describing. it seems primarily typical of genre fiction, hence my question Lex Neville fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 00:12
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fauna posted:i know people have been saying that the art of the story is dying forever, and i don't think it's dying, but i do think it's changing. Isn't this what caused Asimov's Foundation series to reach the length it did? He wanted to wrap it up and move on but kept getting sucked into extending it with one more story. Which is why the later installments tend to end with "and then they discovered the true hidden masters of the Foundation, for real this time, The End." It has been a while since I read those though, so I might be playing that up in my head.
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Nov 21, 2019 00:14
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it's pretty profound. nothing has to end anymore. the magic of money means all stories can just go on and on forever
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Nov 21, 2019 00:14
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Lex Neville posted:genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words? Loads of mid/late 20th century scifi was short and contained. Gibson, PKD etc, and scifi seems to lean that way a lot more than fantasy. Blindsight is close, 95k, and is entirely complete. It kinda counts - the sequel, Echopraxia, is almost entirely narratively separate, it's more of a thematic counterpoint than a sequel. (comedy answer: Neuropath)
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Nov 21, 2019 00:14
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i tried to read neuropath recently and it was loving terrible i'm not even trying to troll, it was the most baffling experience of my life
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Nov 21, 2019 00:15
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It's a pretty reasonable analogy. The Annotated Alice wouldn't exist if books couldn't have Easter eggs. (Not that I'm comparing Robert Jordan to Lewis Carroll.) I get what you're trying to say, but. no. that's like saying that any reference to external context within a work is an easter egg the difference stems from intent of presentation and fundamental difference between mediums. an easter egg in a video game is something that exists within the (for lack of a better term) text, but is hidden from the audience by design. this is possible because of video games as a medium being built around audience interaction, which in turn shapes the experience any given player receives. a book only has the one text, and all of it is explicitly presented to the audience, because that's the nature of literature as a medium. the letters are all there on the page, clearly. because of this and the fact that it's apparently thematically relevant, the passage in question can't be compared to an easter egg in a video game, and comparing it to one in an effort to dismiss criticism of its presence and execution is asinine maybe literature can have something analogous to easter eggs, but not like this
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Nov 21, 2019 02:11
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Lex Neville posted:genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words? This was the absolute standard prior to the mid-70s. Page count bloat began around then; prior to this, genre novels were typically in the 55-70K range. I have lots from this period at 125-180 pages, and of course self-contained--no trilogies. I'm not sure what started the bloat; I'm sure there's been studies done or a blog out there somewhere that tells the tale. Xotl fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 02:28
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Lex Neville posted:genuine question: how common is it for a genre fiction narrative to be fully contained within, say, 80k words? I've wondered about this too. I found a blog post with some information that credits book distributors. I remember in David and Leigh Eddings' how-to-write-fantasy book from the 90s, The Rivan Codex, they said that at the time they got started (which would have been the late 1970's or early 1980's) B. Dalton and Waldenbooks had rules about the length of genre fiction. That was why the Belgariad was released as five books instead of three. Of course, they also said that David quit teaching over a pay dispute rather than a prison sentence, so it may or may not be accurate.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:01
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Bloat started to really take off in the mid-80s. When Jordan pitched WoT to Tor in 84 the sixth Thomas Covenant book was seeing release and the seventh Xanth. Pastoral fantasy had been a huge hit ever since Sword of Shannara proved that audiences would continue to buy anything as long as it resembled Lord of the Rings. Supposedly, Jordan was given a six book contract on the strength of his pitch, which ended up being very different than how Eye of the World turned out when it was finished five years later. But really any pitch that was "a long Tolkien-like fantasy" could have probably netted a six book deal in those days. And of course it sold, as did the sequels, and six books turned into nine, then twelve. Quality doesn't really matter when fans just want more of surface level acquiescence to genre signifiers. Interestingly, the endless series is out of vogue now, with authors using a set number of volumes as a publicity tool. Harry Potter is a big reason for this of course, but Wheel of Time was a contributor as well, making it both, at least in part, responsible for the Bloat Trend in the first place and the Proposed Completed Series trend at the other end. And with GRRM and Ruthfuss unable to finish their works that trend might be seeing its last days as well. Sanderson is slowing down too so who knows what Stormlight Archive will look like in ten years. Fans might get sick of clamoring for all these series that are supposed to be these planned things with set endings that never arrive.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:35
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indeed a major selling point of The Expanse novels seems to be "they're doing 8, and then the series is done!" though there will assuredly be (more) spin offs and who knows what. I have read the first two of them and each could have been condensed to maybe 80 pages without losing any important plot or character development instead of the 600 page behemoths they are. A big part of this is that things are repeated multiple times, exacerbated by the books showing the same events from multiple POVs (but not doing anything different beyond showing the exact same scene in different words).
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Nov 21, 2019 04:52
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Genre fiction is always gonna be plot-focused, but loads of fantasy really likes to obscure bits of the plot behind weird hints and insinuations. So instead of enjoying the writing on an aesthetic level it's written to be pored over, sifting it for every detail. Especially in the decade it takes most series to end. So two takeaways here: 1) Wheel of Time blows 2) Internet nerds need to read Gravity's Rainbow so they get both aesthetic, glorious prose AND minutia to pore over
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Nov 21, 2019 05:46
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Bilirubin posted:2) Internet nerds need to read Gravity's Rainbow so they get both aesthetic, glorious prose AND minutia to pore over This worked for me. About 7 years ago or so GR was the first novel and indeed the first fiction I had read for some time. I was mostly reading nonfiction and had since my mid teens probably. GR was so mind bending and dense that it kickstarted a pretty consistent reading of challenging fiction - GR made other capital-L Literature seem less intimidating, since I figured if I could read that and come away from it with anything at all, surely I could handle anything else.
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Nov 21, 2019 05:58
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Genre is so commercialized there's no incentive to end anything. Look at JK Rowling's constant stream of Harry Potter spin-offs. Did anyone really want a time travel story about Voldemort's love child? No. Why did we get one? Money. Even when genre does end the fans - who are usually numbed to any kind of criticism that doesn't involve people - start shrieking about how awful the ending is. The Harry Potter epilogue comes to mind, as does the ending of the Game of Thrones show. If your cash cows are going to despise your ending AND it cuts off your commercial income, why would you do it? Remember, the fans aren't in this for literary experiences, they're in it for the experience of being a Robert Jordan fan. It's the experience of identifying as a nerd, being around fellow nerds, and talking about dumb poo poo like Elayne's power level. They'll talk about how nothing happened in Crossroads of Twilight, but they'll still buy it. That's why all the fan sites are on the back cover of A Memory of Light. The experience isn't the meaningless 200 page battle, the experience is being awed by Brandon Sanderson's RPG magic additions to the "canon" and then going on internet forums to talk about how totally wicked awesome it was when Tuon threatened to kill Matt because she was pregnant and didn't need him anymore.
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Nov 21, 2019 07:50
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We never did get the full explanation of blight agriculture mechanics I was actually reading the books for.
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Nov 21, 2019 08:32
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I think I finally get why people like 'epic fantasy' thanks to the past few pages, and it's the same reason people like baseball.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:52
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The Wheel of Time got me laid in college.
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Nov 21, 2019 15:41
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ah, so that explains it
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Nov 21, 2019 16:43
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fauna posted:i tried to read neuropath recently and it was loving terrible I'm probably the biggest Bakker stan on this site, and even I find Neuropath awful. Baffling is the right word - torture porn and Dan Brown monologues are a weird mix, especially as a vehicle for his sophomoric philosophy of "you didn't think that, your brain made you think that!" Opening my copy to check out how bad it really was, jfc the first chapter is him discussing his 4 year old son having morning wood in front of his 8 year old daughter.
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Nov 21, 2019 16:43
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I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about having a long story. Or references to like the Mosk and Merk thing in and of itself. It's just that Wheel of Time executed both very poorly.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:his sophomoric philosophy of "you didn't think that, your brain made you think that!" That's entirely advanced philosophy supported by neuroscience. The bad news is that free will doesn't exist, the good news is that you're never going to believe it.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:48
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Kchama posted:I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about having a long story. Apparatchik Magnet posted:That's entirely advanced philosophy supported by neuroscience. The bad news is that free will doesn't exist, the good news is that you're never going to believe it. 
Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 17:49
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:That's entirely advanced philosophy supported by neuroscience. The bad news is that free will doesn't exist, the good news is that you're never going to believe it. This bit: quote:the good news is that you're never going to believe it. is way more interesting than this bit: quote:he bad news is that free will doesn't exist Something like Blindsight, or even Bakker's own Prince of Nothing, are way more enjoyable than Neuropath because they focus on characters failing/succeeding at coming to grips with the illusion of free will, and how they're emotionally unequipped to handle the horrifying truth. And they have aesthetics that reflect those conclusions - PoN is brooding and apocalyptic, Blindsight is less anguished, more suffering from anxiety and ennui at the insignificance of consciousness (and in Echopraxia it morphs into horrifying techno-Lovecraft). Neuropath has none of that. It's a dry as hell slasher-novel, where a sexy Robert Langdon monologues to a sexy FBI agent about how free will doesn't exist. (He is able to deduce what age she lost her virginity, and then blows her mind with awesome sex)
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Nov 21, 2019 18:16
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