|
Lightning Knight posted:Jrod is permabanned. He’s permabanned for a reason. Isn't that reason because he threatened to commit credit card fraud?
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 20:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 12:30 |
|
|
Who What Now posted:Isn't that reason because he threatened to commit credit card fraud? It was stupider than that. He wanted to report SA for credit card fraud if he was banned.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 20:21
|
|
|
I'm not sure that I have much to add to the excellent historical posting (thank you) other than: 1. I'm guessing here, and I think Jrod's original intended point is something much more banal. I'm paraphrasing what I think he's trying to say- when deciding to go to war, countries don't have all facts and information. Therefore, (??) when evaluating if wars are just, we should consider the information the decision-makers had at the time rather than judge them using the benefit of hindsight. I'm not sure any of us disagree with this very simple idea, but I don't know what he thinks follows from there... Ron Paul. He got horribly in the weeds trying to make this point about WW2 but I suspect that's what he intended because of his original posting about false flags and rhetoric. JRod - was this your initial intended point? 2. When I read about Jews, even historical Jews of Europe in the Shoah, I am reading about we and us, not they and them. I'm sure many/most people reading this thread appreciate this point but it's important to make salient - for many people in this conversation, it is my/our ancestors who were sacrificed on the altars of Europe. It's my family members who were liberated at the camps. Perhaps that's too personal, but I hope that adds something to the conversation at the very least.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 20:30
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:It was stupider than that. He wanted to report SA for credit card fraud if he was banned. Tomato, tomahtoe
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 20:45
|
|
|
WrenP-Complete posted:I'm not sure that I have much to add to the excellent historical posting (thank you) other than: Unless I'm mis-reading his points, your #1 seems actually contrary to his argument : he seems to be arguing that because the Allies didn't somehow know the Shoah was going to happen (or rather, that it somehow already happened because???????), that they shouldn't have done anything. And somehow the French, Eastern-European, Danish, Belgian, Dutch, etc. Jews (who I'm not gonna double check but I'm pretty god drat sure were the vast majority of those harmed ; not cause they were singled out, just cause there were lots of them) don't count. We're apparently also ignoring all the non-Jews who also died because of... reasons? I got nothing. Or like the poo poo the Ustasi did. (Don't google that if you want to sleep, like, ever.) As for your point #2, I think that's a really good point that often gets somehow lost in the shuffle in these kinds of conversations. The people murdered aren't just numbers, but actual human beings with lives and feelings and loved ones and hopes. Someone pointing out the human cost in this is very refreshing and really emphasizes the importance of a discussion that could otherwise just be felt like a math exercise. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 20:52
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:Sorry, it's an old in-joke for the thread that JRode's one weakness is someone that knows... anything, really. Actually it was originally applied way back in the day to an previous libertarian trainwreck of a poster named qalnor, who was if anything even dumber than Jrod if you can believe that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:07
|
|
|
polymathy posted:We can't save anyone who died in World War 2. History unfolded as it did and there's nothing any of us can do now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:09
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Actually it was originally applied way back in the day to an previous libertarian trainwreck of a poster named qalnor, who was if anything even dumber than Jrod if you can believe that. Huh! Well, I have egg on my face. You're joking about someone dumber than JRode, though. You've got to be. Right? ... r-right? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:12
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:Huh! Well, I have egg on my face. *A smile spreads slowly across my face, unnervingly stretching beyond what should be physically possible*
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:13
|
|
|
He once won the "worst poster in D&D" contest, at a time when many other thankfully-banned shitheads like ferretball still posted.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:16
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:Oh no! JRode's one weakness! Someone who knows anything about anything! qalnor has evolved
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:18
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Actually it was originally applied way back in the day to an previous libertarian trainwreck of a poster named qalnor, who was if anything even dumber than Jrod if you can believe that. i read that thread when i first started posting here, its a fuckin doozy Captain_Maclaine posted:He once won the "worst poster in D&D" contest, at a time when many other thankfully-banned shitheads like ferretball still posted. the original wddp thread is magic edit ah yeah the good poo poo quote:For one thing, and this is even before I get into the meat of the issue, you are grossly in error if you believe that fiat currency is compatible with a free market. So right off the bat, you're absolutely wrong to say that if the currency is printed up for the purpose it still remains a free market.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:19
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Unless I'm mis-reading his points, your #1 seems actually contrary to his argument : he seems to be arguing that because the Allies didn't somehow know the Shoah was going to happen (or rather, that it somehow already happened because???????), that they shouldn't have done anything. And somehow the French, Eastern-European, Danish, Belgian, Dutch, etc. Jews (who I'm not gonna double check but I'm pretty god drat sure were the vast majority of those harmed ; not cause they were singled out, just cause there were lots of them) don't count. We're apparently also ignoring all the non-Jews who also died because of... reasons? I got nothing. Or like the poo poo the Ustasi did. (Don't google that if you want to sleep, like, ever.) I keep trying to follow exactly what he's said about it, but it's hard as poo poo because he keeps adding qualifiers and cites sources that seem to either contradict what's being said or go into some really, really bad areas. WrenP-Complete posted:I'm not sure that I have much to add to the excellent historical posting (thank you) other than: As someone whose family was also affected by WWII (not Jewish, but Hitler definitely had a plan for my family to suffer and eventually be eradicated), I also want to know exactly what he's trying to say. And as someone whose family's survival depended on the Allies intervening, it's not a contradiction to also be thankful for that while simultaneously knowing that the Allies' intentions were not 100% altruistic. This is not a hard thing to comprehend, especially as history is heavily nuanced and can't be simplified to such ideas as "A is the enemy of B, who is the enemy of C, therefore A and C are friends". Having said that, if you have to keep adding qualifiers and use arguments that veer off into completely awful directions, even the most charitable interpretations of your arguments start tainting you with those people. Much like whether or not you believe that Ron Paul is or isn't a racist, you have to realize that after a while if you keep having to excuse the pattern of awful people that seem to follow him taint him by comparison. In other words: if you lie down with dogs, you pick up their fleas. The way to get over that would require a certain level of introspection and start to notice exactly what attracts these kinds of people -- like alt-right weirdos who also seem to follow people like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:19
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:*A smile spreads slowly across my face, unnervingly stretching beyond what should be physically possible* ... I should have kept my loving mouth shut. His first post in D&D is straight-up approval of the genocide of the Native Americans and an apartheid/ghetto/concentration-camp system for the present-day survivors. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:23
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:... I should have kept my loving mouth shut. His first post in D&D is straight-up approval of the genocide of the Native Americans and an apartheid/ghetto/concentration-camp system for the present-day survivors. Wait until you get to his embrace of eugenics, and interesting* thoughts on Africa.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:26
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Wait until you get to his embrace of eugenics, and interesting* thoughts on Africa. That's true, but slaves were slaves by law, so once again the problem seems to be government.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:27
|
|
|
Free markets tend to make everyone either middle class or rich unless they're in some way disabled. Look at early American cities. Laissez faire wasn't perfect, but there was very little government intervention and the vast majority of people were middle class.Free markets tend to make everyone either middle class or rich unless they're in some way disabled. Look at early American cities. Laissez faire wasn't perfect, but there was very little government intervention and the vast majority of people were middle class.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:28
|
|
|
BENGHAZI 2 posted:That's true, but slaves were slaves by law, so once again the problem seems to be government. That exchange was I believe the actual genesis of "oh know, someone who knows something about anything, qalnor's one weakness!"
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:28
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:*Ask me about when I had to sit alone in a gas chamber in Auschwitz. In the dark. Smelling nothing but death and shame. I was like 6-7 years old. Holy poo poo. I finally went there about 9 years ago and could barely stand it as a 24 year old. I saw school trips there, and kept thinking that even in Ontario we woefully under-educate kids on what happened during WWII and the Holocaust. Talking with others around my age, it seems like unless you know someone and were taught by your family for example, it's otherwise an abstract notion. Especially since just about any shithead politician can compare something stupid to Hitler and people just agree with them. I can't imagine what that was like as a kid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:30
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Unless I'm mis-reading his points, your #1 seems actually contrary to his argument : he seems to be arguing that because the Allies didn't somehow know the Shoah was going to happen (or rather, that it somehow already happened because???????), that they shouldn't have done anything. I'm pretty sure JRod is trying to say that America forced Germany's hand here. polymathy posted:We're not talking about the war, we're talking about the 1930s when FDR REFUSED asylum for the Jews and sent them back to their death. Like, I'm pretty sure he thinks literally everyone is somehow perfectly informed at all times, including in the 1930s, a famous period of American isolationism; of course America not taking in multiple millions of refugees while the country was still recovering from the great depression (e: and wildly racist!) was America forcing Hitler to kill them because how dare you suggest Hitler should change. Somfin fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 21:37
|
|
|
mojo1701a posted:As someone whose family was also affected by WWII (not Jewish, but Hitler definitely had a plan for my family to suffer and eventually be eradicated), I also want to know exactly what he's trying to say. And as someone whose family's survival depended on the Allies intervening, it's not a contradiction to also be thankful for that while simultaneously knowing that the Allies' intentions were not 100% altruistic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:01
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Without the allies intervening my country would've remained under german occupation. My granduncle would probably have died in a nazi prison camp (he was a teacher and refused to teach nazism to children), lord knows what would've happened to my other granduncle who sailed in the convoys or my grandfather who was in the resistance but chances are that their luck would've run out at some point. Without the allies intervening there's a chance that I would've never been born. This isn't the point of JRod but it's equally important to remember that the allies weren't necessarily against the camps either. Patton famously hated that he had to liberate the camps. He would have been fine if more of my family was killed or not. Which is a very familiar feeling to this thread.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:15
|
|
|
Billy Gnosis posted:This isn't the point of JRod but it's equally important to remember that the allies weren't necessarily against the camps either. Patton famously hated that he had to liberate the camps. He would have been fine if more of my family was killed or not. Which is a very familiar feeling to this thread. And also that after the war many camp survivors had distinctly frosty, and at times murderous, receptions when they made their way home, particularly in Poland.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:20
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:And also that after the war many camp survivors had distinctly frosty, and at times murderous, receptions when they made their way home, particularly in Poland. I still remember from my high school ap European history textbook the section on post war Eastern Europe talking about Pogroms flaring up again to find scapegoats. All I could think of is that who is left to scapegoat? "it's all the Jews fault." "You mean Gary?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:24
|
|
|
Billy Gnosis posted:This isn't the point of JRod but it's equally important to remember that the allies weren't necessarily against the camps either. Patton famously hated that he had to liberate the camps. He would have been fine if more of my family was killed or not. Which is a very familiar feeling to this thread. Don't forget that the Americans put the German homosexuals right back in
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:47
|
|
|
Somfin posted:I'm pretty sure JRod is trying to say that America forced Germany's hand here. He's saying that Hitler only killed the Jews because nobody would take them in. So yes, in a roundabout way he's saying America forced Germany's hand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 22:48
|
|
|
The rest of the world absolutely saying "no jews" to germany is a pretty lovely thing the west should be dragged over though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:01
|
|
|
It's consistent with the previous all of history where antisemitism was encouraged by basically everybody.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:03
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:The rest of the world absolutely saying "no jews" to germany is a pretty lovely thing the west should be dragged over though. Absolutely (except for Japan, curiously, which heard "Jews secretly control the world" and thought "awesome, let's get some on our side!"), but at the same time anyone doing so should be careful to not allow it to be mistaken for Nazi apologia or equivocation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:The rest of the world absolutely saying "no jews" to germany is a pretty lovely thing the west should be dragged over though. No question, but suggesting that Germany had to do something is playing directly into the nazi narrative
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
Somfin posted:No question, but suggesting that Germany had to do something is playing directly into the nazi narrative Exactly this. That Jrod can't see this means he's exceptionally stupid or is sympathetic and willingly playing to the Nazi narrative. I'm reasonably sure it's the former.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:43
|
|
|
Yeah, blaming the west for what the nazi's did assumes that the jews needed to go or were a problem in the first place. But reminding the west how brutally antisemitic their own societies were is good, history's really been white washed where it's like hitler personally invented antisemitism and the rest of the world watched in shock and horror at those poor poor jews they desperately wanted to help and protect. Until news of full on death camps came out, a lot of western governments and media were pretty sympathetic to what hitler was doing and maybe this fellow was on to something. The levels of antisemitism weren't that different throughout the west, it's just that the nazi's actually focused and acted on it. The nazi's had no shortage of locals gleefully helping them round up local jews after invasions for example. Of course you can go to jail for saying this in poland because antisemitism is a purely german invention.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2019 23:48
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:While I'm sure as poo poo not proud of what my ancestors did, I'm proud that Germany actually got its poo poo together (sort of) and is super committed to something like that never, ever happening again. Sup, mein Freund. I wouldn't say "proud" but more like "glad" about Germany being (forced to be) honest about its history without any major whitewashing. On the other hand just last week or so I saw a FB post about a town close to my birthplace renaming a "Rommel Street" and the comment section was full of the same arguments idiots made about confederate statues in the US. Clearly, renaming streets named after literal nazis means the erasure of history. On an unrelated note, it's some pages back now, but I find it hilarious polyrod cited Switzerland as an example for the superiority of a decentralized state. You know, the country where women didn't get the vote in federal elections until 1971. And where some regions barred them from voting until 1990, opposed till the end by every male official in charge. Let's all strive to be more like the European country where women were politically disenfranchised when I was in elementary school!
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 00:13
|
|
|
JRod on behalf of CSPAM I would like to propose a set of Points of Unity that both libertarians and the left can agree on without reservations, and could form the basis for a more constructive dialog in future: 1) The billionaires in our society as it exists stole all their money and don't deserve it 2) Jeffrey Epstein was murdered 3) Death to America Are you willing to sign on to these points so we can move forward?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 01:20
|
|
|
We're in a JRod lull, expect him to come back with an article to yell about in bold and absolutely no intention of responding to anything we've said Somehow I suspect it'll be about Russia
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
Goon Danton posted:JRod on behalf of CSPAM I would like to propose a set of Points of Unity that both libertarians and the left can agree on without reservations, and could form the basis for a more constructive dialog in future: why would he ever sign on to the first one
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 01:33
|
|
|
~*crony capitalists*~
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 01:35
|
|
|
Like seriously if all the horrors of modern capitalism are invalid because we don't live in a free market because laws exist that make everything get dominated by Crony Capitalists, then obviously the people at the top of that system have to be those selfsame crony capitalists, right?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 01:59
|
|
|
Dude's as dense as zaurg was and has much the same MO. Deflect, deflect, deflect, and when the thread has him pinned down on something, disappear for a while before returning with a brand new Issue #1, in which everything that was posted before is ignored and new and even lovely characters are introduced.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 02:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 12:30 |
|
|
Weatherman posted:Dude's as dense as zaurg was and has much the same MO. Deflect, deflect, deflect, and when the thread has him pinned down on something, disappear for a while before returning with a brand new Issue #1, in which everything that was posted before is ignored and new and even lovely characters are introduced. He will never resolve the cognitive dissonance between "a business requires workers to succeed" and "workers are not responsible for business succeeding" and that will never stop being hilarious
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2019 02:05
|
|