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ChubbyChecker posted:Tolkien thought Sam to be Lord of the Rings' main character, while Egwene didn't even exist in the original version of the story. And neither did Mat. Who cares about the original version, that was never published. Reading a summary of RJ's original pitch doesn't tell you all that much about who was important in the books we actually got. Hieronymous Alloy posted:A lot of the Salidar plotline could be cut but Egwene as a character has a few genuinely neat plot points, and the "Fount of the Power" chapter in book 14 or whatever is one of the series high points. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 02:30
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Atlas Hugged posted:Was she the one that rediscovered how to make cuendillar or was she just particularly good at it? She also figured out how to counter balefire. One of the things I really loved was how, once she'd figured out how to do it, she taught a whole bunch of other channelers and had them make assembly-line cuendillar household objects for them to sell to people. It was such an incredibly practical thing and I thought it was great. Also how she turns the entire south harbour of Tar Valon into one gigantic piece of cuendillar which Elaida's people have to try and figure out how to remove. And Elaida speculates that maybe they could get someone to buy it.
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Nov 20, 2019 02:44
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Egwene rules and gets some awesome payoff throughout the series. I'm finding her very relateable in my re-read.
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Nov 20, 2019 03:29
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ChubbyChecker posted:Tolkien thought Sam to be Lord of the Rings' main character, while Egwene didn't even exist in the original version of the story. And neither did Mat.
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Nov 20, 2019 03:33
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Could Rand outfight Dick Roll?
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Nov 20, 2019 04:13
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How are u posted:Egwene rules and gets some awesome payoff throughout the series. I'm finding her very relateable in my re-read. When I first read the series, I always liked Mat the most. Didn't give Egwene much attention, thought her development was kind of weird, paid it little mind. Came back to it a couple years ago, now that it's concluded, and was surprised by how much Egwene ruled.
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Nov 20, 2019 04:16
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How are u posted:Egwene rules and gets some awesome payoff throughout the series. I'm finding her very relateable in my re-read. Well other than when she has Nynaeve sexually assaulted to distract her from realizing that Egwene is lying.
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Nov 20, 2019 04:17
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Basileus777 posted:Well other than when she has Nynaeve sexually assaulted to distract her from realizing that Egwene is lying. Uhhhhh...... what? When?
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Nov 20, 2019 04:38
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Vavrek posted:When I first read the series, I always liked Mat the most. Didn't give Egwene much attention, thought her development was kind of weird, paid it little mind. Came back to it a couple years ago, now that it's concluded, and was surprised by how much Egwene ruled. This has been my experience in re-reading, too: I'm really enjoying Egwene and Nynaeve a lot more this time through and I'm finding them a lot more relatable. I'm wonder if it has to do with where I am in my life now vs. when I first read the series, or whether it's just that my first time through I was so excited to get to Rand chapters that I didn't give the other plotlines the attention they deserved.
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Nov 20, 2019 04:41
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VikingofRock posted:This has been my experience in re-reading, too: I'm really enjoying Egwene and Nynaeve a lot more this time through and I'm finding them a lot more relatable. I'm wonder if it has to do with where I am in my life now vs. when I first read the series, or whether it's just that my first time through I was so excited to get to Rand chapters that I didn't give the other plotlines the attention they deserved. Yeah, I dont think I realised just how hosed up Rand was because of my own hosed-upness. Now that I'm doing better, I see how much of a loving nutjob he is.
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Nov 20, 2019 04:43
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Uhhhhh...... what? When? Nynaeve was about to figure out that Egwene was lying to the Wise Ones and going to TAR in secret, so Egwene conjured a shadow to sexually assault her in TAR to distract her. She made Nynaeve beg for help until she stopped the attack.
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Nov 20, 2019 05:00
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Uhhhhh...... what? When? There's a scene in Fires of Heaven. Here, read it yourself to see if it amounts of sexual assault. I don't think it is supposed to be read like that, but to each their own. Gonna use spoilers: “Do you realize you could dream yourself into something you could not get out of? Dreams are real here. If you let yourself drift into a fond dream, it could trap you. You’d trap yourself. Until you died.” “Will you—?” “There are nightmares walking Tel’aran’rhiod, Nynaeve.” “Will you let me speak?” Nyaneve barked. Or rather, she tried to bark it; there was rather too much frustrated pleading in there to suit her. Any at all would have been too much. “No, I will not,” Egwene said firmly. “Not until you want to say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel’aran’rhiod, it is real, too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don’t realize, do you?” Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve’s arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth. She tried to make them vanish—if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she—and one of them ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror filling her, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. “Please, Egwene!” It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. “Please!” The men—creatures—vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor. For a moment all she could do was shudder and weep. Hastily she repaired the damage to her dress, but the scratches from long fingernails remained on her neck and chest. Clothing could be mended easily in Tel’aran’rhiod, but whatever happened to a human . . . Her knees shook so badly that it was all she could do to stay upright.
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Nov 20, 2019 05:24
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:There's a scene in Fires of Heaven. Here, read it yourself to see if it amounts of sexual assault. I don't think it is supposed to be read like that, but to each their own. It's not really that ambiguous. It's sexual assault. Like how with Tylin raping Mat maybe RJ didn't understand what he was writing, but the text speaks for itself. And either way, Egwene comes off as a truly awful person for subjecting a friend to this simply to hide her own misdeeds. Hell, she even seems to revel in the power over Nynaeve that it gives her. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 05:29
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I think if it weren't the "kiss or bite" bite, you could say it's ambiguous, but yea that kind of seals the deal. And I think you left out the part where Egwene laughs to herself all self-satisfied after doing that if I'm not mistaken?
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Nov 20, 2019 13:37
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She does. Egwene is the worst character. She is just an actual terrible person who cares only about her personal satisfaction and power. Nynaeve however is the best character in the series. Then Hopper and Birgitte.
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Nov 20, 2019 13:48
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Also I wondered whether I was supposed to be reading her coup over the Tower leadership as analogous to Hitler wrangling a majority and seizing emergency powers
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Nov 20, 2019 13:50
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RC Cola posted:She is just an actual terrible person who cares only about her personal satisfaction and power. I'm not sure I agree with that, it wasn't some egotistical "I must be the one who reforges The Tower" but rather "It needs to be done so I will do it". And as far as her power goes - honestly that's why I liked her at the start of the series. Everyone else is all ,"wah I don't want to go mad" or "wah I don't want to be able to loving talk to wolves" or "wah I don't want to be a wizard *tugs braid" but Egwene was all "gently caress yea sign me the gently caress up" My "favor" for her definitely wanes as the series goes on, but it was more due to disinterest in how her overall arc progresses rather than because of her actual character. But after reading things in this thread / the Sanderson thread before this one was made I do see how she is actually, legitimately pretty lovely.
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Nov 20, 2019 14:01
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Sab669 posted:I'm not sure I agree with that, it wasn't some egotistical "I must be the one who reforges The Tower" but rather "It needs to be done so I will do it". And as far as her power goes - honestly that's why I liked her at the start of the series. Everyone else is all ,"wah I don't want to go mad" or "wah I don't want to be able to loving talk to wolves" or "wah I don't want to be a wizard *tugs braid" but Egwene was all "gently caress yea sign me the gently caress up"
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Nov 21, 2019 01:42
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Data Graham posted:Also I wondered whether I was supposed to be reading her coup over the Tower leadership as analogous to Hitler wrangling a majority and seizing emergency powers Look, say what you will about Egwene, she made the white tower trains run on time I mean, that's actually the best defense of her character. She's lovely in more than one way but she gets poo poo done when it matters.
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Nov 21, 2019 01:51
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Sign me the gently caress up is where I really dislike her. She's just the label she wants to be. I think the rand suddenly becomes omg wtf overpowered criticism applies to her. What's her character other than that? I think it makes a little more sense if you think of Egwene as mirroring Rand. Rand is the singular man of the entire Age, the individual who reshapes the world and fulfills an incredible destiny. If you think of Rand representing the male half of the power, then it makes a certain amount of sense that there'd be a woman who fulfills the same type of role, doing wondrous things and generally being larger than life / 'overpowered'. Egwene has like hugely changed what it means to be Aes Sedai and, to an extent, the entire structure of how societies study and put into practice channeling Saidar. Nerd alert, jesus 
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Nov 21, 2019 02:05
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Egwene isn't even the strongest female channeler around so i don't know why you'd call her overpowered
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Nov 21, 2019 02:31
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RE: Egwene and That Scene: Egwene is trying to impart upon Nyn that if she dies In The Ma'tri'x she dies in real life; Nyn as usual will not just shut the gently caress up and listen, so Egwene conjures something to scare the poo poo out of her. Possibly from Nynaeve's own psyche. And she actually learned the lesson. Regardless of Egwene's other motives for doing this, it's not like she was just being a sadist. Even if she was self satisfied after, it has to feel good to own Nynaeve if you have to spend any time around her and grew up more or less under her thumb.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:38
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Aside from the sexual assault thing and the time she blackmails a bunch of Aes Sedai into swearing a loyalty oath to her because she caught them forcing Aes Sedai to swear loyalty oaths to them, the thing I like least about Egwene is the way she becomes infallible after she's imprisoned in the Tower. Suddenly she has infinite resistance to torture because of magical Aiel thinking, can convert her enemies to her side with one speech like a Terry Goodkind protagonist, can defend against an attack with a bunch of novices better than the entire remaining "battle ajah," can easily outwit a group of women who each have a hundred years of accumulated experience and whose primary character trait is "scheming," and can reduce one of the dreaded Forsaken to an invalid using only the power of her self- confidence. It would have been nice if the Pattern/Sanderson at least made her ta'veren during that whole episode to justify why all of those things put together seem so fantastical. I think the only time she may have been at a disadvantage was when she ran into Perrin in the world of dreams (why'd she try to tie him up during a battle?) and that still arguably led to her realizing that she could counter balefire and overcome Mesaana with the power of positive thinking.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:42
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IDK I think all that kinda owns 
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Nov 21, 2019 02:48
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its like a full book of "and then everyone stood up and clapped"
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Nov 21, 2019 02:55
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Also, I'm not sure how much defensive experience the green ajah has at that point, have they had to defend anything at all since Hawkwing besieged them? Plus they've been infiltrated and crippled from within so pretty much every ajah was more or less ineffectual at what were supposed to be their strengths. See also: the white ajah not being able to apply logic to any situation ever.
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Nov 21, 2019 03:07
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Also Egwene "trained" under the Seanchan so it's not unreasonable to think she would be good at blowing poo poo up with the Power
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Nov 21, 2019 03:29
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Also Egwene "trained" under the Seanchan so it's not unreasonable to think she would be good at blowing poo poo up with the Power More importantly, she knows how to fight them intelligently (link circles and disconnect the leashes).
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Nov 21, 2019 03:31
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Yeah the Tower battle thing I think is justified because Egwene has at that point trained with Aiel, Seanchan, wilders, etc and if nothing else knows that the usual Aes Sedai thing of "sleight of hand" magic isn't going to cut it, she needs to take people out before they can do more damage. What Aes Sedai can honestly say at that point they have more battle experience than her?
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Nov 21, 2019 03:33
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Mat Cauthon posted:Yeah the Tower battle thing I think is justified because Egwene has at that point trained with Aiel, Seanchan, wilders, etc and if nothing else knows that the usual Aes Sedai thing of "sleight of hand" magic isn't going to cut it, she needs to take people out before they can do more damage. What Aes Sedai can honestly say at that point they have more battle experience than her? Cadsuane, maybe? The list would not be long
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Nov 21, 2019 03:41
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Egwene isn't infallible. She would have been killed by Seanchan Assassins if Gawyn didn't explicitly disobey her orders
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Nov 21, 2019 03:41
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Some of the greens hang out in the borderlands helping deal with trolloc raids and the like. And at least some have probably been attacked or at least threatened by whitecloaks or other idiots in their few centuries of life but almost certainly none of them have fought other trained channelers. Maybe a few untrained men when out assisting the reds but that's about it. Egwene is likely the most experienced combatant against other channelers in the tower at the time. And her training as a demane was probably more efficient and sophisticated than the combat training the average Aes Sedai get and likely even as much or more than the greens. She was also wielding the most powerful sa'angreal the tower owns and was linked. Despite the forkroot she was likely channeling at least 2 orders of magnitude more saidar than anyone else in the tower or assaulting the tower. If anything that any of the to'raken made it away with slaves says she was far more ineffective than I would have thought considering the circumstances. Egwene is utterly insufferable and a horrible person, the bit with Nyneave being just the most overt instance of her frequent dickishness, but she's one of my favourite characters to read about through most of the series. It's neat to have a protagonist who is so horrible and I kinda like that I didn't notice how awful she was as a kid reading and rereading the books. Makes it feel like the story has grown up with me a bit. Then again the poster that compared her to a Goodkind character in her time as Elaida's captive is spot on. I really enjoy those chapters but, especially on re-reads, she's way too effective and way too quick. And the event that should have worked most in her favour, when Elaida starts just beating her mercilessly with the power, is largely ignored after the scene it happened in. That story should have spread through the Tower and started really discrediting Elaida especially with the sitters.
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Nov 21, 2019 03:54
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Nihilarian posted:Egwene isn't infallible. She would have been killed by Seanchan Assassins if Gawyn didn't explicitly disobey her orders That's a good point. it also forces me to admit that Gawyn did know best at least once in the later books, even though getting those magic rings did set him up for his eventual downfall. I'm sympathetic to the books' point that the Aes Sedai are mostly more style than substance after so many centuries of isolation and that they're all hamstrung by their personal issues or their Ajahs' signature failings, but I still think I would prefer it if they weren't a complete joke most of the time. That may be an issue specific to the Greens... I can recall at least a few times when the other Ajahs actually accomplish their stated purposes successfully. For the Greens the only things that are coming to mind are the botched Tower defense, Bera and Kiruna's wild goose chase into the waste, Myrelle trying to seduce Lan back to life, Joline constantly being a pain in Mat's rear end, and whatever Alanna and Cadsuane thought they were doing.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:15
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Brolander posted:RE: Egwene and That Scene: Yeah, its her job to do that. She knows all about listening to people who know better. Its why she obeyed the wise ones telling her to not be in the world of the dreams at the time she was teaching Nynaeve why to listen about not going in the world of dreams. Google why is Egwene the worst. There are some comprehensive lists that have been gathered over the last 29 years.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:28
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I'm fond of a friend's reason for disliking her: "Egwene" is a terribly awkward name. What kind of a name starts with Eg? Does it have a short form? Did close friends ever say "Hey Eg, how're you today?" "What's happenin' with you, Eggy?"
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Nov 21, 2019 04:43
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So Egwene has some lovely traits but also accomplished a hell of a lot of unequivocally good things Almost like she's a flawed character or something
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Nov 21, 2019 04:55
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"Egwinna" is one Latinized rendering of the Welsh "Ecgwynn", which was allegedly the name of an early king of England's mother.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:57
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Yeah, but that's pronounced Steven so I dont know why you're bringing it up
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Nov 21, 2019 05:09
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:So Egwene has some lovely traits but also accomplished a hell of a lot of unequivocally good things Like the main character of Terry Goodkind. Both are equally good
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Nov 21, 2019 05:16
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That isn't true at all. Egwene never made an antidote to a poison by intuition alone hours before it killed her.
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Nov 21, 2019 05:17
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