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This is from a while ago but re: necromancy and taboo, I heard the solid argument that it's evil because undead have the default behavior of "kill anything alive within sight", and as soon as you stop controlling them they'll rampage. This is fundamentally different from a golem, which can be left alone and will just carry on whatever task it was given earlier.
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Nov 21, 2019 16:36
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Admiral Joeslop posted:DTAS but Intelligence in 5e is the most useless of them all if you're not a Wizard or now Artificer. I don't think there are other classes that use it? It only modifies knowledge skills otherwise and those aren't all that great. At least Con gives you hit points. I guess Arcane Trickster needs a little. Int is used for the poisoner’s kit and a few other things of that nature, plus arcane trickster and maybe one or two other similar magical subclasses.
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Nov 21, 2019 16:54
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Splicer posted:It sounds like you could get some mileage out of minimum strength requirements for bows like you do for armour, assuming you mitigate the MADness by e.g. merging str and con 2E required you to have a specially made, higher-pull bow to get your Strength bonus to damage, which lower-Strength characters then couldn't use. Unsurprisingly, it was more fiddly than interesting.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:00
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There's also a danger in getting too focused on weapon simulation and then forgetting that those sorts of "realism" requirements are routinely ignored for magic users. Like we can talk about how long it would really take to fire and reload a crossbow, but defining how long it would take to cast a spell is completely arbitrary. Spells could take multiple rounds to cast, and it would be just as realistic.
Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 17:12
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Bring back segment casting. 
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Nov 21, 2019 17:18
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Guildencrantz posted:This is from a while ago but re: necromancy and taboo, I heard the solid argument that it's evil because undead have the default behavior of "kill anything alive within sight", and as soon as you stop controlling them they'll rampage. This is fundamentally different from a golem, which can be left alone and will just carry on whatever task it was given earlier. Where is that in the rulebook though? If that's how undead work in a given setting then yeah, they're a pretty irresponsible thing to make unless you're careful with them. But still not metaphysically evil, any more than say, a rabid dog is.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:26
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thespaceinvader posted:Where is that in the rulebook though? Skeletons and Zombies have evil alignments, and when the Animate Dead spell ends then you lose control over them rather than destroying them.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:29
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thespaceinvader posted:Where is that in the rulebook though? Animate Dead This spell creates an Undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an Undead creature. The target becomes a Skeleton if you chose bones or a Zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature's game statistics). On each of your turns, you can use a Bonus Action to mentally Command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can Command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same Command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general Command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against Hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete. The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any Command you've given it. To maintain the control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to four creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating a new one. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you animate or reassert control over two additional Undead creatures for each slot above 3rd. Each of the creatures must come from a different corpse or pile of bones.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:30
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change my name posted:Int is used for the poisoner’s kit and a few other things of that nature, plus arcane trickster and maybe one or two other similar magical subclasses. I don't have my book in front of me, don't the various kits just allow you to use your proficiency bonus with them while doing whatever they apply to? Poisoner's Kit allows you to create poisons while using your proficiency bonus without actually giving you any poison crafting rules. The subclasses that use Int are generally just shittier wizards with a trick or two which is OK but certainly not something worth investing heavy points into Int. When I played an Eldritch Knight I had a 10 in Int because what use would it be?
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Nov 21, 2019 17:32
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Default skeleton behavior being 'gleefully freeing other skeletons from the shackles of meat'
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Nov 21, 2019 17:33
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Undead being automatically Evil is lazy and boring, much like alignment in general.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:39
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SilverMike posted:Are there any decent character builders for 5E? D&D Beyond is amazing.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:46
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Undead isn't automatically evil. Revenants are undead technically, but could be any alignment.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:46
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Undead being automatically Evil is lazy and boring, much like alignment in general. I'll grant that RAW it's probably accurate that Skeletons and Zombies are by nature evil, and therefore, creating them is by nature evil, in the default setting, though. DOesn't mean it's not a stupid setting. nelson posted:D&D Beyond is amazing. Can confirm. As long as at least one person has access to all the content and is willing to share it, it's probably the best digital character builder I've ever come across. Including a sideloaded 4e one. The ability to operate your character sheet live from your phone is fantastic.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:51
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It'd be cool to have undead that are basically stuck in what their emotional state was at death. So you can't be certain that a random corpse won't reanimate into a perma-raged beserker, or a terrified skulker, a ghoul that is willing to help but is always confused or distracted, a Boomer corpse riddled with regret that complains of necromancer entitlement, or perhaps a little old grandma that died surrounded by her family and is so happy and at peace that she couldn't possibly take up arms, but you go on without her, dearie.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:54
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I don't have my book in front of me, don't the various kits just allow you to use your proficiency bonus with them while doing whatever they apply to? Poisoner's Kit allows you to create poisons while using your proficiency bonus without actually giving you any poison crafting rules. The subclasses that use Int are generally just shittier wizards with a trick or two which is OK but certainly not something worth investing heavy points into Int. When I played an Eldritch Knight I had a 10 in Int because what use would it be?
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Nov 21, 2019 17:55
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Nutsngum posted:I think synergising stats rather then merging them might make for something interesting.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:58
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Dexo posted:Undead isn't automatically evil. Poking through the Complete Reference app I have on my phone*, I see three undead that aren't Evil: Ghost, Phantom Warrior, and Revenant. Ghosts make perfect sense, Revenants are generally humanoids brought back to a semblance of life with their intelligence intact, and I don't know what the Phantom Warrior is from. All the rest are some form of evil. *All this content is unofficially put in by users so I take it with a grain of salt. I understand this is how 5e wants to represent undead but it is, again, lazy and boring. "All skeletons are evil" is the same mindset as "All orcs are strong tribal members that raid the good folk of the village" and that's awful.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:01
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Dienes posted:It'd be cool to have undead that are basically stuck in what their emotional state was at death. So you can't be certain that a random corpse won't reanimate into a perma-raged beserker, or a terrified skulker, a ghoul that is willing to help but is always confused or distracted, a Boomer corpse riddled with regret that complains of necromancer entitlement, or perhaps a little old grandma that died surrounded by her family and is so happy and at peace that she couldn't possibly take up arms, but you go on without her, dearie. lmao i fuckin love this
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Nov 21, 2019 18:08
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Splicer posted:I'm on favour if this in theory, like I said the problem with int and cha is the lack of passive benefits. Con and Str are two halves of one stat though, and you can't keep them separate while justifying the existence of Dex. Cha benefits all the talky skills like persuasion, intimidation and deception. It's like the single most useful 'in town' stat.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:09
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Kung Food posted:Cha benefits all the talky skills like persuasion, intimidation and deception. It's like the single most useful 'in town' stat.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:15
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Kung Food posted:Cha benefits all the talky skills like persuasion, intimidation and deception. It's like the single most useful 'in town' stat. Unless you don't have a Charisma primary class in your party, this doesn't help much. A Fighter with 14 Cha and proficiency in one of those skills isn't much better than anyone else and is completely irrelevant if someone has an 18 and training in 2-3 of those. Also Intimidation should be Str, Con or Cha based depending on your character as an actual rule, not a sidebar that says "Ask your DM!"
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Nov 21, 2019 18:18
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Kung Food posted:Cha benefits all the talky skills like persuasion, intimidation and deception. It's like the single most useful 'in town' stat. As Nutsngum put it, wis and dex have synergy, the other three not so much. *con's problem is that it's all synergy and has minimal active do cool stuff uses.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:20
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thespaceinvader posted:Where is that in the rulebook though? It's in the monster manual. Description for Skeletons: "When skeletons encounter living creatures, the necromantic energy that drives them compels them to kill unless they are commanded by their masters to refrain from doing so. They attack without mercy and fight until destroyed, for skeletons possess little sense of self and even less sense of self-preservation." Description for Zombies: "A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought and imagination. A zombie left without orders simply stands in place and rots unless something comes along that it can kill. The magic animating a zombie imbues it with evil, so left without purpose, it attacks any living creature it encounters." It could work differently in a given setting, of course, but that's the default way laid out in the books.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:21
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Masiakasaurus posted:Yes but those are skills, not passive benefits. Cha doesn't do anything by itself whereas most other stats do. I mean, by that logic the only stats that ' do anything' are CON (HP) and DEX (AC). Everything else is skills and abilities.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:21
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, by that logic the only stats that ' do anything' are CON (HP) and DEX (AC). Everything else is skills and abilities. Welcome to the DTAS party!
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Nov 21, 2019 18:28
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I don't have my book in front of me, don't the various kits just allow you to use your proficiency bonus with them while doing whatever they apply to? Poisoner's Kit allows you to create poisons while using your proficiency bonus without actually giving you any poison crafting rules. The subclasses that use Int are generally just shittier wizards with a trick or two which is OK but certainly not something worth investing heavy points into Int. When I played an Eldritch Knight I had a 10 in Int because what use would it be? I believe you can add your proficiency + int for poison stuff as there are a few 20+ rolls on the crafting table in the book.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:36
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quote:A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock. Your race, class, background, or feats give you proficiency with certain tools. Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool. Tool use is not tied to a single ability, since proficiency with a tool represents broader knowledge of its use. For example, the DM might ask you to make a Dexterity check to carve a fine detail with your woodcarver's tools, or a Strength check to make something out of particularly hard wood.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:51
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change my name posted:I believe you can add your proficiency + int for poison stuff as there are a few 20+ rolls on the crafting table in the book. Which book and which page? PHB rules for crafting is that you spend a day to craft up to 5g worth of an item. Poison is 100g so you need to spend 20 days of downtime to make this:  The only thing about crafting poison in the DMG:  Is there another book that has a crafting table?
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Nov 21, 2019 18:57
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change my name posted:I believe you can add your proficiency + int for poison stuff as there are a few 20+ rolls on the crafting table in the book. FWIW, they fleshed out tool proficiencies in XGTE:  So, for the aforementioned Poisoner's Kit: 
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Nov 21, 2019 18:57
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Toshimo posted:FWIW, they fleshed out tool proficiencies in XGTE: Yeah this is what I was thinking of, why did I assume int was added to the bonus? Weird as I’m playing an assassin right now. Guess it really is a dump stat.
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Nov 21, 2019 19:15
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I guess it's setting appropriate for most of the classes to use int as a dump stat because what kind of loving moron would actually want to go adventuring?
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Nov 21, 2019 19:21
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You can replace book learned intelligence with long term experience in the form of Wisdom in a lot of cases anyway. My aunt taught me how to drive when I was 14 and that experience was immeasurably better than anything I learned in driving school from a book. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma don't need to co-exist as they do in this game except that they're a sacred cow.
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Nov 21, 2019 19:39
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, by that logic the only stats that ' do anything' are CON (HP) and DEX (AC). Everything else is skills and abilities. Dex gives AC, Initiative, and a good save. Everyone wants AC*, Initiative, and good saves. Wisdom gives you Perception (which while technically a skill is also your not get ambushed stat and your see sneaky enemies stat), and a good save. Everyone wants to not get ambushed and good saves. By comparison, int and cha give you protection from intellect devourers and... I can't even think of a player facing cha attack. Skills are also not all equal. +1 to seeing things, sneaking past things, or not falling off things is going to have more direct, mechanical increases in effectiveness and not dying than +1 to knowing exotic god facts, and if the party as a whole needs to know about exotic god facts there's an exotic god facts guy right there. Similarly if there's somehow a life or death being in town roll happening it's going to go to go to the guy with the biggest chance of success. If you're the guy with the second worst chance of success adding +1 to that isn't really going to show much return on investment. "Everyone roll diplomacy to not lose Xd6 HP" is not exactly a common scenario. Splicer fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 19:57
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Splicer posted:"Everyone roll diplomacy to not lose Xd6 HP" is not exactly a common scenario. "Make me laugh or you'll face my wrath!" crows the demented child prince at the captured adventurers, as his henchman grips the wheels on the torture rack.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:19
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"Admiral Joeslop" posted:
Hmmmm. It might be boring or it might not be. Skeletons are portrayed as mindless, so having a default behavior is sort of required. Skeletons, being mindless, don't have a culture so it isn't really the same as the orc problem, or at least not for the exact same reasons. Orcs have intelligence and make choices, so portraying them as cultural monoliths is a problem. Skeletons do not have this issue. Vampires all being evil, on the other hand...
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Nov 21, 2019 20:34
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I'd probably change stat dependence so most of the classes can choose their primary stat. If you're a spellcaster it's your spellcasting stat and it automatically starts at 16 or 17. All barbarians are strong All rogues are dexterous All monks are wise All wizards are intelligent All bards are charismatic But from there, Fighters can choose to focus on strength or dexterity Rangers can choose to be intelligent (Van Helsing updated-my-journal types) or wise (ranger classic way-of-the-wild types), which gets added to a bunch of odd bonuses like their Hunter's Mark (they'll also likely want STR or DEX to around the same degree) Paladins can choose to be wise or charismatic (and like the ranger will probably want STR or DEX for weapons) Clerics can be intelligent, wise, or charismatic Sorcerers can be strong or charismatic Warlocks can be intelligent or charismatic From there I'd say the remaining problems are lack of synergies (e.g. fighters are either incredibly buff klutzes or anemic watch craftsmen) and that wisdom is still the best mental stat. I'd definitely say that fighters should get some ability like QUALITY: when you hit with a strength/dexterity weapon, add your dexterity/strength modifier to the damage (max fighter level/4). The problem with doing this too much though is that it would eventually result in a situation where every class has a single optimal stat spread. Mental stats could be somewhat fixed by spreading out the saves. You could even provide additional flavor to some monsters by having them target a specific save (e.g. a Mindflayer always targets INT, a demon prince of lies always targets WIS, the queen of the fairies always targets CHA...), although you'd need to make sure you didn't do it for monsters you fight disproportionately across a campaign. From there it's a matter of how perception is handled, which has always been weird because no stat really corresponds to it and as a skill it's always better than all the other skills. I'd say just eliminate the skill and make passive perception modifier strength modifier + dexterity modifier (maybe with rogues being allowed to add their proficiency modifier on top). It's based on the senses of your body (strength) and you'd expect soldiers and thieves to be better at anticipating a fight or passively spotting entrances than priests or scholars. If you want to search for hidden passages/treasure, then get out your magnifying glass and use your intelligence to roll investigation.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:35
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Just merging STR and CON would be a simple change and a huge improvement. Now DEX martials are not vastly superior to STR martials as the extra HP helps balance them. It also frees up frontline strength based fighters to have a useful secondary ability score as they don't have to pool all their ability points in two scores with minimal utility outside of combat. You can easier have an intelligent, wise or charismatic fighter. 5 abilities, point buy of 22, standard array 8, 10, 12, 14, 15 tanglewood1420 fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 20:49
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Fighters are governed by COURAGE Bards are governed by LOVE Wizards are governed by TRUTH Druids are governed by both TRUTH and LOVE Paladins are governed by both COURAGE and TRUTH Rangers are governed by ALL THREE There I fixed classes 
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Nov 21, 2019 20:55
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tanglewood1420 posted:Just merging STR and CON would be a simple change and a huge improvement. Now DEX martials are not vastly superior to STR martials as the extra HP helps balance them. It also frees up frontline strength based fighters to have a useful secondary ability score as they don't have to pool all their ability points in two scores with minimal utility outside of combat. You can easier have an intelligent, wise, charismatic or fighter. Wrote a game where I merged Str/Con (Might) and Wis/Int (Wit). Probably single best thing I came up with. Makes writing and balancing the material so much easier.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:57
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