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OwlFancier posted:I mean I am actually very much for the age war in general but state pensions are like... just not a very good way to go about it even in that instance, because they're really kind of an example of how it should work for everyone. Much like the NHS, or council housing. I agree with the rest of your post, but the age war is a symptom of the real problem, which is that it is convenient for capital to cultivate old people as a voting base against the young, allowing them to strip mine both, with just the occasional bone thrown to the older people. It is also convenient for capital that the dividing line between the two keeps rising, so the people they are more effectively marginalising and milking keep growing in number, while the ones they have to pay a little bit more to gradually die off. Profits rise! Well, it's convenient until there are too many of us and they can no longer stop us taking them down  Short-term profit for the few without regard to long-term consequences?  Edit: I require a 315% year-on-year return on my investment or I will render the planet uninhabitable. More quickly, I mean. Braggart fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 10:44
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peanut- posted:What's the betting that "free hospital parking" involves just ordering the NHS Trusts to pay the private parking charges and not providing any increase in funding to cover it. peanut- posted:They didn't pay it over the course of their life though. Not aiming that specifically at WASPI women who didn't work, boomers in general didn't pay anything like enough tax to cover the various pension entitlements they granted themselves. 1) values politics - Corbyn et al have been focusing on being seen as providing fairness and justice, and want to be seen as trustworthy as a government. you don't do that by rolling back on promises to a vulnerable group (older women with little employment history, see Jaeluni's post). the state pension by and large isn't particularly big. if you're dependent only on that, things are going to be tough - I know people in this category 2) bringing sections of that age group around to Labour (albeit temporarily) is very, very useful, especially if they can bring partners with them 3) if this particular bung helps us get a Labour government, we might maybe still have a functioning society in 30 years to worry about pensions for us. £50bn isn't a huge amount for that in the grand scheme of things, we definitely won't be able to restructure the economy and fix pensions / elder care without a Labour government (possibly not even with one, but let's not go there, eh) CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 10:45
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Braggart posted:I agree with the rest of your post, but the age war is a symptom of the real problem, which is that it is convenient for capital to cultivate old people as a voting base against the young, allowing them to strip mine both, with just the occasional bone thrown to the older people. It is also convenient for capital that the dividing line between the two keeps rising, so the people they are more effectively marginalising and milking keep growing in number, while the ones they have to pay a little bit more to gradually die off. Profits rise! On the other hand the effect is generally that the young are getting more left wing and the old are getting more right wing, so... they kind of are the problem. They might be made the problem by material conditions etc, but necessarily the solution is going to involve taking power and stuff and cultural control from the old and giving it to everyone else. Whether you view it as an age war or not the practical manifestation is gonna involve that, because they do keep propping up and voting for all the bad poo poo. Just specifically the state pension isn't one of the problems.
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Nov 24, 2019 10:49
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To be clear I am in no way arguing for abolishing state pensions, just that changes to the system are absolutely going to be required and I'm not convinced by how much justice or fairness there is in putting £58bn behind this particular cause to protect this particular group from the effects of any changes. We're not talking piddly numbers here, that's about half the annual operating budget of the entire NHS. Doing this or not will have a genuinely material impact on Labour's ability to pursue other manifesto policies.
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Nov 24, 2019 10:50
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Ideally, the state pension will be the start of a UBI system - no need for a pension in old age when you're always getting supported. If we do eventually introduce UBI, starting at state pension rate isn't a bad place to start.
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Nov 24, 2019 10:52
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Also things like nationalized medicine production, state provision of housing etc, will help to drive down the costs of sustaining people at old age as well as young. Again your only option for dealing with pensions being expensive is to either make people cheaper to sustain or to start killing them.
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Nov 24, 2019 10:57
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OwlFancier posted:On the other hand the effect is generally that the young are getting more left wing and the old are getting more right wing, so... they kind of are the problem. They might be made the problem by material conditions etc, but necessarily the solution is going to involve taking power and stuff and cultural control from the old and giving it to everyone else. Whether you view it as an age war or not the practical manifestation is gonna involve that, because they do keep propping up and voting for all the bad poo poo. Now this I agree with  False consciousness is the problem. It's not entirely their fault that they are cunts. Let's show them a better world, and if any of them don't like it then too bad. We will be giving the young a voice that they have been denied for too long. Hi five! 
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Nov 24, 2019 10:58
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OwlFancier posted:That was actually my reaction to the alan moore thing. Like great sure alan it's nice that the hermit has decided to wander down off the mountain and tell us all how they'll be deigning to join us this year in politely saying no to the slaughter but you might have tried that at some point previously in your life. I don't mind someone with an actual ideological argument against voting (plus, anarchists etc. tend to do plenty of organising anyway) but I might actually hate the comfortable liberals who try to pull it more than outright Tories.
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Nov 24, 2019 10:59
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peanut- posted:To be clear I am in no way arguing for abolishing state pensions, just that changes to the system are absolutely going to be required and I'm not convinced by how much justice or fairness there is in putting £58bn behind this particular cause to protect this particular group from the effects of any changes. A lot of the money will be going to impoverished people. I think that alone is reason to do it. It will have a multiplicative affect as they spend it, and it will improve the lives of people who are suffering, and of course it is the moral option. We can find the money, and we should. We are going to be spending a lot of money reshaping society to be less of a hellhole. We need as many politically acceptable angles as possible to move wealth towards the poorest, because that should be one of our big priorities
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Nov 24, 2019 11:04
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peanut- posted:To be clear I am in no way arguing for abolishing state pensions, just that changes to the system are absolutely going to be required and I'm not convinced by how much justice or fairness there is in putting £58bn behind this particular cause to protect this particular group from the effects of any changes. So would you rather they all went on Universal Credit (which a lot of them are having to try and do - wasting everyone's time applying for jobs for which they will probably not have the necessary skills or physical strength) which given the lost of valuable 'free carers' out of the system will mean a necessary increase in (very) elder care, dementia care, child care, and ultimately will cost the state more. Unless of course we reintroduce workhouses for the poor. (Which I wouldn't put beyond the tories). This WASPI group do not have TIME to make up for the loss of what they were expecting. Even I can see that though I am technically affected, having had 20 years to make up the difference (as I said because I read financial pages and I knew this was coming) is a rather different kettle of fish than finding out 3 months before you thought you were due to retire that you suddenly have to find another 6 years of income from somewhere. People are vastly undereducated in this whole realm. I know when I'm talking to my sister who is a year or so younger than me, that the minute you mention pensions/national insurance/tax her face and mind go blank. It's just not something she can get her head around and she is more typical than me.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:06
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TACD posted:Found out that a friend of mine is not even registered to vote, because “it’s not worth it” and “they’re all the same”, and I think that poo poo makes me even angrier that somebody who plans to vote Conservative. The sheer arrogant privilege of not being bothered enough about the huge numbers of homeless people you see every day or the enormous A&E wait times, to say nothing of even bigger (but not within direct experience) issues like hundreds of thousands of austerity deaths… gently caress, man, if that’s not even worth a ten minute walk to the polling place then your priorities are truly disgusting. I was discussing this with my partner this morning in the frame of younger voters who will say "they're all the same" etcetera and then go on to become vegan "to help the environment" or protest a thing at university. I can't wrap my head around the thought process that goes into depriving yourself of bacon on a morn to "make a difference" but not getting up and voting because "it won't change anything." But then I don't get the thought process behind a lot of poo poo. Today's papers are equally loving depressing. And it's raining.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:07
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Is there any actual evidence that confirms people get more right-wing with age? Or is it that right-wingers tend to be more wealthy, and wealthy people live longer, so the lefties in a given generation die out younger concentrating the gammon into old demographics?
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Nov 24, 2019 11:07
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It's correlative rather than necessarily causitive, I think. Because yes age works to filter out the people who would be inclined to left wing politics by necessity because often necessity does not provide and they just die. Though, equally, I think age contributes to your tendency to engage in culture war bullshit. Though of course that can manifest everywhere, see: gamers.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:09
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mehall posted:Is there any actual evidence that confirms people get more right-wing with age? Or is it that the older generation (boomers and before and to some extent Xers - I'm either a late boomer or early Xer depending whose variation on a theme you take) 'respected authority' in the shape of The Times (or any broadsheet newspaper), The BBC, trusted the Government to do The Right Thing? Gave 'deference' to their 'betters'. When I criticize the BBC my mother says to me "Why do you criticize our National Institutions?"
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Nov 24, 2019 11:11
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There is definitely a weird streak in some people who believe, apparently simultaneously, that everyone else is out to gently caress them up but The Government will always basically do the right thing. I dunno how it works tbh.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:14
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With some decent data manipulation and use of excel I'm sure there's an excellent chart of lead poisoning likelihood to tory voter potential to be made I mean I only spent most of my formative years breathing in the results of 4 star petrol but the boomers spent most of their lives getting a large cumulative dose
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Nov 24, 2019 11:21
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Age is correlated with right-wing votes mostly becuse it's linked to wealth, which has a larger direction impact.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:22
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Braggart posted:I agree with the rest of your post, but the age war is a symptom of the real problem, which is that it is convenient for capital to cultivate old people as a voting base against the young, allowing them to strip mine both, with just the occasional bone thrown to the older people. It is also convenient for capital that the dividing line between the two keeps rising, so the people they are more effectively marginalising and milking keep growing in number, while the ones they have to pay a little bit more to gradually die off. Profits rise! We know the solution to this, Universal Basic Services combined with Universal Basic Income. A full level playing field throughout life. Paid for by 100% inheritance tax Well enough of this politics nonesense. Let's deal with the real issues facing the UK today https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019/nov/24/the-halloumi-crisis-supplies-of-one-of-britains-best-loved-imports-are-running-low quote:Halloumi hell: how will we survive the cheese crisis?
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Nov 24, 2019 11:28
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I have no real issue with the labour policy on state pension changes but I do want to point out the state pension is larger than every single other benefit put together The state pension for people living abroad was bigger than JSA back before most people got moved to UC
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Nov 24, 2019 11:33
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Age is correlated with right-wing votes mostly becuse it's linked to wealth, which has a larger direction impact.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:40
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I think 100% inheritance tax will turn off a lot of people even if it's part of an objectively fairer system. We're not getting over the mentality of "mums stuff is my stuff when she dead".
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Nov 24, 2019 11:41
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Anecdotal, but my dad used to be very left wing - I remember one of the first political conversations I had with him was about foreign aid and why we should help other countries (I was 9 ok) - in recent years he's gone from being socialist to being quite liberal in terms of, gently caress you, got mine. He's also started using racial slurs. I think pollution has something to do with it - a brain made dumb is going to be more paranoid and protective rather than empathetic and open maybe. Also -2 INT for your only media source being the BBC and a -10% success rate on remembering what you stood for when you were younger. It was good to see responses to Tai's post, if any lurkers have genuine questions and may be tempted to vote Lib Dem or Greens or whatever always happy to chat if you're curious about something. There's also the discord if that's more your cup of tea. Chapo can be a bit mixed sometimes but thought this interview was p. good about discussing various points around capitalism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqKpxxciL4I
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Nov 24, 2019 11:44
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RockyB posted:We know the solution to this, Universal Basic Services combined with Universal Basic Income. A full level playing field throughout life. Paid for by 100% inheritance tax Yes, but you have to show the intervening steps and not just the conclusion if you want to bring people with you 
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Nov 24, 2019 11:46
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think 100% inheritance tax will turn off a lot of people even if it's part of an objectively fairer system. We're not getting over the mentality of "mums stuff is my stuff when she dead". Not without a lot of intervening steps. Obviously nobody wants your mam's china, but your mam's stock portfolio is something that can't be left to go wherever it wants. Of course presently your mam's stock portfolio is the only way you can guarantee you've got somewhere to put your mam's china, so you need to decouple them first.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:50
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Braggart posted:
Ftfy: "surely there exists someone ELSE who will get me 315%yoy, so I will take my investment to them unless you say it's OK for me to render the planet uninhabitable. More quickly, I mean."
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Nov 24, 2019 11:54
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loving hell https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1198210527039774721
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Nov 24, 2019 11:57
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all students must be arrested immediately for registering in two different places!!!! this is fraud!!!
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Nov 24, 2019 11:59
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mehall posted:Is there any actual evidence that confirms people get more right-wing with age? I think it comes from a quite dated place. Like upper middle class people who went to university in the 70's-90's and got heavily involved in left wing social issues. Then they go on to have incredibly high paying jobs and realise that they don't want to pay as much tax.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:59
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Someone should tell them about this shady organization that seems to be meddling in the election under the guise of "preventing fraud."
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Nov 24, 2019 12:01
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https://twitter.com/stevebrookstein/status/1198330225261776896?s=20 https://twitter.com/miqdaad/status/1198552183177961472?s=20
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Nov 24, 2019 12:02
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hooray it's a scotland-specific poll https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1198399096853278721 for comparison, vote share in Scotland in 2017 was: SNP 36.9% Tories 28.6% Labour 27.1% Lib Dems 6.8% Greens 0.2% UKIP 0.2%
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Nov 24, 2019 12:03
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Honestly, I think older people are more racist/right wing because they feel weaker and more vulnerable, which leads to fear. Youre old, your body is breaking down, yesight/hearing is going and suddenly out come racisms and general distrust of anyone different
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Nov 24, 2019 12:04
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The only solution is to keep posting in this thread until we all die
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Nov 24, 2019 12:08
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think 100% inheritance tax will turn off a lot of people even if it's part of an objectively fairer system. We're not getting over the mentality of "mums stuff is my stuff when she dead". The intervening step here is saying 'Do you want to be able to afford somewhere to live now, or would you like to wait until your parents die in 20 years?'. Guardian / Observer are going hard on that 19% tory lead outlier poll this morning. This really just exacerbates my complaints about the media relying far too much on these 'free samplers' as the story, rather than an addendum to the story. The entire political narrative for the day is set by a couple of blokes throwing darts at a call centre. They do have a couple of decent opinion articles this morning though https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/24/ven-after-two-world-wars-we-rebuilt-britain-we-must-recapture-that-can-do-spirit https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/24/once-politicians-treated-voters-as-adults-now-they-are-contemptuous And lmfao at the lib dems this morning. Jo; is, to steal a phrase, shook. https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1198542404581654528 E: This has aged well 
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Nov 24, 2019 12:09
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maybe the voting figures aren't a great comparison, given this poll is quite similar to the panelbase polls in the run up to 2017 also, with the exception of the lib dems getting a boost 26–31 May 2017 SNP 42%, Labour 20%, Tories 30%, LD 5%, UKIP 2%, Green 1% 2–7 Jun 2017 SNP 41% Labour 22% Tories 30% LD 5% UKIP <1% Green 2%
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Nov 24, 2019 12:10
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This is how my constituency went down in the 2017 GE. Labour and Lib dems essentially split the vote. Lid dems had managed to hold this seat from 97' until 2015, and labour has never held the seat here.  I obviously want to vote labour, but not at the risk of letting the tories back in. Should I hold my nose and vote lib dem, or what? Kernel Monsoon fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 12:11
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Sloth Life posted:Honestly, I think older people are more racist/right wing because they feel weaker and more vulnerable, which leads to fear. I know lots of people who have done the opposite though. I think it all depends on where you grew up.
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Nov 24, 2019 12:12
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Kernel Monsoon posted:This is how my constituency went down in the 2017 GE. Labour and Lib dems essentially split the vote. Lib dems are literally tories in yellow, vote Labour.
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Nov 24, 2019 12:13
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The Tories In Yellow is the other name for the lib dem manifesto and reading it turns you violently mad as well.
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Nov 24, 2019 12:15
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Kernel Monsoon posted:This is how my constituency went down in the 2017 GE. Labour and Lib dems essentially split the vote. Could you try uploading that image again? It's just showing up as a 404 for me
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Nov 24, 2019 12:16
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