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this is the first time i saw this meme being used earnestly
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Nov 24, 2019 00:28
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Wasn't the origin of that meme something like an IDF soldier protecting Israeli children?
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Nov 24, 2019 00:32
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Bolivia TV is broadcasting this basically all day, they also have proven that the military didn't shoot anyone, by having the military investigate itself and finding that they only used non lethal weapons. We all know who the real killers are of course
Spice World War II has issued a correction as of 00:38 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 00:33
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PawParole posted:MAS must refuse. the coupists are scared, La Paz is under siege. I think they would just like the murder and manhunting to stop. They have prices on their heads right now.
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Nov 24, 2019 00:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:"no MAS"
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Nov 24, 2019 01:55
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they really walked into that one
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Nov 24, 2019 01:56
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Cup Runneth Over posted:I think they would just like the murder and manhunting to stop. They have prices on their heads right now. It's not going to stop.
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Nov 24, 2019 02:00
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TheBalor posted:It's not going to stop. I agree. But I think they are doing this for the same reason Morales agreed to the new elections, to resign, etc. -- they just want the violence to stop and do not want to go to war over it.
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Nov 24, 2019 02:02
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yeah it's important to keep in mind that MAS are not a revolutionary socialist organization and do not actually want to fight a war, they actively want to work within the system and many of their leaders are going to be willing to accede to the coup's demands if they believe it will lead to a return to business as usual. like, you notice all the chants of 'civil war now, civil war now' stopped abruptly after a couple days? that is likely because somebody privately passed down the word to local party organizations to firmly tell people to stop saying that, because that was not something MAS was prepared for or interested in. they want to pursue socialism gradually within the parliamentary system, and if a deal is offered that they believe will allow them to continue doing that, even if they have to suffer a temporary setback, there will be people in the party arguing strongly in favor of taking that deal, rather than the alternative of trying to force the coup government out of power Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 02:36 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 02:33
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Is there an actual revolutionary socialist party in Bolivia? because they definitely have a revolutionary fascist party.
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Nov 24, 2019 03:29
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Is there an actual revolutionary socialist party in Bolivia? because they definitely have a revolutionary fascist party. i dunno if those fascists are in favor of rigging a redone election with the help of the UN they might be overconfident
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Nov 24, 2019 03:47
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Is there an actual revolutionary socialist party in Bolivia? because they definitely have a revolutionary fascist party. the neoliberal fascist collaborator Mesa who came in second place in the presidential election is officially a member of a party called the Revolutionary Left Front, lmao they used to be a coalition of pro-China communist parties who split from the main Bolivian communist movement as part of the Sino-Soviet split and are now a centrist to center-right party who are a minor coalition partner in an alliance with a bunch of conservative and far-right groups in terms of actual revolutionary organizations there's the Bolivian Communist Party which has a couple thousand members, and a bunch of smaller alphabet-soup groups whose membership is limited to one or two muncipalities and who in practice all basically function as part of MAS.
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Nov 24, 2019 04:32
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My understanding of the Bolivia situation is  : Hey, who's up for a good old-fashioned fascist coup? : You want old-fashioned? Let's see how you handle a siege, you Nazi fucks.
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Nov 24, 2019 04:45
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basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. The one reasonable argument against him running again is the massive fascist coup that popped up right under his nose. He would have been president and pushed incremental change until he got couped or died.
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Nov 24, 2019 04:57
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Mister Bates posted:yeah it's important to keep in mind that MAS are not a revolutionary socialist organization and do not actually want to fight a war, they actively want to work within the system and many of their leaders are going to be willing to accede to the coup's demands if they believe it will lead to a return to business as usual. and then half of MAS will be quietly disappeared over the next few years if they stop resisting now will they take the bait?
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Nov 24, 2019 05:21
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. what the gently caress is this poo poo. I guess Allende had it coming, too? gently caress you
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Nov 24, 2019 05:34
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. And what's more, he shouldn't have been wearing those clothes.
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Nov 24, 2019 05:58
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. shut the gently caress up idiot
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Nov 24, 2019 06:02
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https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1197998328065200129
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Nov 24, 2019 06:10
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. Bruh alert
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Nov 24, 2019 06:42
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. Hey friend, this is real stupid. Better luck next time! 
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Nov 24, 2019 07:17
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Evo Morales is a great man, and he has sacrificed much to improve the lives of Bolivians. However, all of those advances are now at the risk of being rolled back, and in fact, made even worse than before. As marxists, are we not obligated to evaluate previous revolutionary successes and failures? In this, I believe we are shown that a slow, gradual revolution, that does not seize power in the army and use draconian measures to control the press and reactionary unions, is doomed to failure. It may be an ugly truth, and one that revolutionaries wish was not so, since we aspire to be better than our oppressors, but we must be organized based upon material conditions, and a constantly updating knowledge of historical events.
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Nov 24, 2019 07:50
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There's a big difference between acknowledging Evo's failures and calling him a neoliberal.
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Nov 24, 2019 07:52
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Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that characterization at all, his heart was definitely in the right place.
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Nov 24, 2019 08:08
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Mister Bates posted:yeah it's important to keep in mind that MAS are not a revolutionary socialist organization and do not actually want to fight a war, they actively want to work within the system and many of their leaders are going to be willing to accede to the coup's demands if they believe it will lead to a return to business as usual.
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Nov 24, 2019 08:22
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Ardent Communist posted:Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that characterization at all, his heart was definitely in the right place. plenty of neoliberals have good intentions too. from an objective materialism viewpoint obama causing trump and evo causing the fascist coup are pretty much the same pattern of increments failing and immediately being rolled back by capital. the objections to this are either the paternalistic racism of wanting an indigenous former president to blindly support or (apparently from some of these crazy rape analogies) sexism? reminds me of all the mindless Lula worship here.
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Nov 24, 2019 09:10
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comparing Obama to Evo kind of shows you don’t really have any idea what your talking about because their only real similarities are that you don’t like them
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Nov 24, 2019 09:25
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Morales actually managed to improve the lives of millions, and give a voice to people ignored for 500 years. There is no indication that his people are willing to be silent once again, and a new government will have a hard time to just roll back all the progress made, even though they will no doubt try (and succeed at least in some areas). It's very nice that when he finally gets coup'ed out of office and his party decides that they don't want to continue to literally feed their children to the fire, an internet person declares that this shows him to be a secret neoliberal all along. Just imagine if all the internet people around the world would take their extreme conviction to the cause and transform their own societies, laying their and their families lives on the line, so next time an Evo Morales gets into power he doesn't just have to face the opposition advantage of 500 years of colonialism, but also the interference of the whole western world.
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Nov 24, 2019 09:54
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Why are people calling indigenous Bolivians indians
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Nov 24, 2019 10:24
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i don't use it here but where i'm from "indians" is still the official word for native americans. it's different from the word for actual people from india here, so it never got changed. maybe it's a 2nd language thing?
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Nov 24, 2019 11:02
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Indigenous people in the Americas still get called Indians because that's how the Spanish did it.
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Nov 24, 2019 11:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Indigenous people in the Americas still get called Indians because that's how the Spanish did it. And Portuguese
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Nov 24, 2019 14:04
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Spice World War II posted:Morales actually managed to improve the lives of millions, and give a voice to people ignored for 500 years. There is no indication that his people are willing to be silent once again, and a new government will have a hard time to just roll back all the progress made, even though they will no doubt try (and succeed at least in some areas). he literally brought in mesa, the former president who murdered ~60 people so he wouldn’t have to privatize the petroleum industry, into the government ~unelected~ to work an international court case against chile. he left the military untouched, didn’t arm the populace, and generally refused to implement the only known system of leftism in south america. saying “lol there’s no way the new internationally recognized fascist government undoes all his changes is optimistic and honestly unrealistic. this coup is absolutely his legacy.
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Nov 24, 2019 14:56
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uninterrupted posted:he literally brought in mesa, the former president who murdered ~60 people so he wouldn’t have to privatize the petroleum industry, into the government ~unelected~ to work an international court case against chile. he left the military untouched, didn’t arm the populace, and generally refused to implement the only known system of leftism in south america. That's certainly a take.
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Nov 24, 2019 15:08
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Oh are they that dumb? That's really bad - they're going to be slaughtered. And I don't mean at the polls. that's an unfair characterization, I think people have died and are going to continue to die, and that is not a possibility MAS was prepared for. that was supposed to be something that didn't happen anymore - that was something that MAS was formed to stop. the party was created by a coalition of labor unions, indigenous organizations, and peasants' social movements specifically to serve as their unified voice in the political sphere, a means of gaining influence over the country in addition to militant confrontation. being peaceful was the whole point of the party. the party may have radicalized into a full-on revolutionary organization but they ended up not needing to (as far as they believed). they were ultimately swept into power with the largest majority any party has ever had in the country's history - and I think many of them convinced themselves that they'd won, that they had worked out a way to build socialism without having to fight a war first. they know that if they fight a lot of people are going to die and they may lose. if they accept a compromise a lot of people are still probably going to die and they still may lose, but the organization and its constituent bodies will (assuming the government abides by the deal) be allowed to continue existing as legal above-ground organizations, which they definitely would not be able to do if they launched a civil war and then lost. the party leadership are community organizers and social movement activists, not dedicated revolutionaries; they were never prepared to contest a war. they're staring down a situation where the two possible outcomes are 'victory after a long and bloody struggle' or 'annihilation', and now somebody is offering the possibility of a third option in which they will get to continue to do the thing the party was formed to do. it's bullshit, and I hope enough people down there see that it's bullshit for the resistance to continue, but I also don't blame any of the people who want to believe it.
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Nov 24, 2019 15:27
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I see, what you are saying is that when Maduro fails to hand over power successfully to his successor in the future, that will reveal him to be a neoliberal shill, too.
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Nov 24, 2019 15:40
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uninterrupted posted:he literally brought in mesa, the former president who murdered ~60 people so he wouldn’t have to privatize the petroleum industry, into the government ~unelected~ to work an international court case against chile. he left the military untouched, didn’t arm the populace, and generally refused to implement the only known system of leftism in south america. so to be clear you're opposed to bourgeois democracy per se, right
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Nov 24, 2019 15:57
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It's possible that we can, sometime in the future and with the full benefit of hindsight, theorycraft about what Morales should or shouldn't have done, but right now the reality is that the chips are loving down and if you don't back the people to the hilt against the gusanos and coupmongers you're carrying water for the loving fash and should just gently caress off forever, hth.
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Nov 24, 2019 16:27
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Hasta la victoria siempre
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Nov 24, 2019 16:29
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's possible that we can, sometime in the future and with the full benefit of hindsight, theorycraft about what Morales should or shouldn't have done, but right now the reality is that the chips are loving down and if you don't back the people to the hilt against the gusanos and coupmongers you're carrying water for the loving fash and should just gently caress off forever, hth. which by his own argument makes him a neoliberal. die young or see yourself become the neoliberal
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Nov 24, 2019 16:40
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