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it was just a matter of time before the ultralefts showed up to tell you that none of you are free from neoliberalism
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Nov 24, 2019 17:06
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:it was just a matter of time before the ultralefts showed up to tell you that none of you are free from neoliberalism I believe I can feel their astral vibrations as they descend from the outer planes
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Nov 24, 2019 17:09
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V. Illych L. posted:so to be clear you're opposed to bourgeois democracy per se, right yes Cerebral Bore posted:It's possible that we can, sometime in the future and with the full benefit of hindsight, theorycraft about what Morales should or shouldn't have done, but right now the reality is that the chips are loving down and if you don't back the people to the hilt against the gusanos and coupmongers you're carrying water for the loving fash and should just gently caress off forever, hth. fair, and I do back the people, I just think we need to be honest about morales’s failures. if the coup is thwarted and evo or an evo-esque figure gains control of the country and the military isn’t purged the right wing coup will just be pushed back a decade or so. and all they’ll learn is “kill more people sooner”.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:26
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https://twitter.com/anarcomiguxos/status/1198647994616291334 Liberal : I have a bolivian friend that says Evo is corrupt and racist and doesn't represent the bolivian people The bolivian friend:
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Nov 24, 2019 18:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UxPssKygEs
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Nov 24, 2019 19:08
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https://twitter.com/WHAAsstSecty/status/1197988574018318336?s=20 https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1198421523532525568?s=20 I was seeing some news about new protests, but it looks like there might be another push by right-wingers with US support to oust Ortega in Nicaragua soon. Hopefully its just a small showing like the "protests" in Venezuela last week.
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Nov 24, 2019 19:16
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uninterrupted posted:yes i dont think what youre saying is totally without merit but yeah people are somewhat raw because its like telling someone their grandpa should have ate healthier in the hospital waiting room post-heart attack. there are a lot of things we can wish MAS had done differently, though, and i also hope that if they regain power somehow, they do learn the lesson from chavez that you really do need special bodies of armed men to counter the capitalist special bodies of armed men
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Nov 24, 2019 19:47
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I think there is a difference between saying there are ways to avoid this and actually he’s a neoliberal that wanted to be couped? Really the whole neoliberal point derails the whole thing
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Nov 24, 2019 19:50
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yeah if morales had been a neoliberal then the bolivian economy wouldnt have done so well
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Nov 24, 2019 19:52
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the barricades around the Senkata fuel plant, where the most recent massacre took place, have been dismantled by the protesters as a show of good faith in the offered deal, and the army is currently rushing fuel transports in and out of the plant as quickly as they can to restock their depleted supplies.
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Nov 24, 2019 20:03
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Mister Bates posted:the barricades around the Senkata fuel plant, where the most recent massacre took place, have been dismantled by the protesters as a show of good faith in the offered deal, and the army is currently rushing fuel transports in and out of the plant as quickly as they can to restock their depleted supplies. this is the most depressing lambs to the slaughter scenario i've ever seen
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Nov 24, 2019 20:19
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Atrocious Joe posted:I was seeing some news about new protests, but it looks like there might be another push by right-wingers with US support to oust Ortega in Nicaragua soon. Hopefully its just a small showing like the "protests" in Venezuela last week. The gangs who were armed before are still armed so I wouldn't be so optimistic.
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Nov 24, 2019 20:26
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/WHAAsstSecty/status/1197988574018318336?s=20 what the gently caress is going on with ortega, impression i get is hes had a liberal turn but also the us hates him out of reflex?
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Nov 24, 2019 20:57
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:it was just a matter of time before the ultralefts showed up to tell you that none of you are free from neoliberalism I’m an ultraleft and I don’t think that. It’s less corruption and more false consciousness. they truly believe that they are socialists, when they maintain the profit motive
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Nov 24, 2019 21:47
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Morales is a socdem like Lula he was well meaning but still wanted to play by the rules of the wealthy and compromise without knowing they wouldn't settle for anyrhing but complete domination
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Nov 24, 2019 21:53
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Like I think they did a lot of mistakes but there's no denying that it was the forces of reaction that were most interested in getting them ousted, not popular demand
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Nov 24, 2019 21:55
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Plutonis posted:Morales is a socdem like Lula he was well meaning but still wanted to play by the rules of the wealthy and compromise without knowing they wouldn't settle for anyrhing but complete domination ultimately, socdems are the best aim for the short term left until the grounds for non-actually existing socialism is laid. He should have cashiered out the army and used the language of meritocracy to make it more amerind.
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Nov 24, 2019 21:57
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I don't really trust the deal, but it's good to see that the Social Movement exists beyond Evo. Also the mass of the people using blockade to force change in the face of military force.
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Nov 24, 2019 23:48
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StashAugustine posted:what the gently caress is going on with ortega, impression i get is hes had a liberal turn but also the us hates him out of reflex? The US will be satisfied by nothing less than complete domination of the political and economic spheres of Latin American countries
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Nov 25, 2019 00:27
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enough MAS lawmakers were allowed into the legislative halls to secure a quorum for sessions of both houses of the legislature and the bill ratifying the compromise agreement passed both unanimously, it just has to be signed by the 'president' now it will reconstitute an electoral tribunal (out of entirely new members, the previous ones having been arrested by the self-proclaimed government) and schedule new elections to take place no later than February 2020. the deal that ended up passing was expanded to also bar Morales' vice president from standing in the election, in addition to Morales himself the remaining protester barricades in El Alto and surrounding La Paz have either been dismantled or are in the process of being dismantled
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Nov 25, 2019 01:40
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Mister Bates posted:enough MAS lawmakers were allowed into the legislative halls to secure a quorum for sessions of both houses of the legislature and the bill ratifying the compromise agreement passed both unanimously, it just has to be signed by the 'president' now sounds like bad guys won 
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Nov 25, 2019 01:52
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I hope that this is some high level ploy on the part of MAS, as there's really no point in going through with a new election because even if MAS wins the fash will just try to overturn the result by force again and we'll be right back where we started.
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Nov 25, 2019 01:57
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So basically, there’ll be elections but the fascists decide who gets to run?
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Nov 25, 2019 01:57
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Comrade Koba posted:So basically, there’ll be elections but the fascists decide who gets to run? yes. demokkkracy baby!
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Nov 25, 2019 02:07
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Without a People's army, the people have nothing.
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Nov 25, 2019 02:17
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yeah this is effectively caving. Way to waste all the protestors time and lives
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Nov 25, 2019 02:20
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Ardent Communist posted:
arent you that guy who made an rear end of himself in the a/t mil hist thread and got dunked on by all the libs there thats a pretty big loving failure lol
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Nov 25, 2019 03:23
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Stairmaster posted:arent you that guy who made an rear end of himself in the a/t mil hist thread and got dunked on by all the libs there thats a pretty big loving failure lol I mean to be fair the milhist thread really is inhabited by libs (and a monarchist?) so there is that
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Nov 25, 2019 03:30
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Cerebral Bore posted:I hope that this is some high level ploy on the part of MAS, as there's really no point in going through with a new election because even if MAS wins the fash will just try to overturn the result by force again and we'll be right back where we started. I'd like to think there's some 12th dimensional tic-tac-toe going on but I think it's just a plain surrender. They've taken off all the physical pressure by dismantling the barricades and with the agreement going through the official channel of the legislature and being signed by Áñez they've also effectively said "yep, the coup and its self-proclaimed president is indeed the legitimate government of Bolivia."
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Nov 25, 2019 03:34
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uninterrupted posted:basically morales is another neoliberal that stabbed the left and bolivians in general in the back by not arming the populace/purging the military/confiscating capital and immediately nationalizing it. Pretty broad definition of "neoliberal" you got there.
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Nov 25, 2019 03:36
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I'm honestly fuckin baffled as to what MAS's game is here, there has got to be some kind of strategy behind this but from the outside this deal seems to fly in the face of, like, basic human self-preservation instincts. some of the people who voted in favor of this deal are on the literal loving kill-lists the government has been spreading around
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Nov 25, 2019 04:36
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Gobblecoque posted:I'd like to think there's some 12th dimensional tic-tac-toe going on but I think it's just a plain surrender. They've taken off all the physical pressure by dismantling the barricades and with the agreement going through the official channel of the legislature and being signed by Áñez they've also effectively said "yep, the coup and its self-proclaimed president is indeed the legitimate government of Bolivia." It's even worse, they also agreed that they won't field any candidates for the electoral tribunal at all, but instead let the coup government oversee the elections on their own (the tribunal is supposed to consist of candidates fielded by the parliament) and then later bolivia TV announced that the Mas majority also agreed that the bill that was to reaffirm that all constitutional rights and protections are going to be afforded to them was tabled indefinitely. So at this point it really feels like there were snipers in the room off camera
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Nov 25, 2019 05:09
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Mister Bates posted:I'm honestly fuckin baffled as to what MAS's game is here, there has got to be some kind of strategy behind this but from the outside this deal seems to fly in the face of, like, basic human self-preservation instincts. Whether or not this is a good call, I think its mostly that they don't want to spend a whole lot of lives on a war they don't think they can win. Which is a judgement call I don't know enough about to tell if they're right or not, but yeah this means the fash wins again
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Nov 25, 2019 05:14
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Mister Bates posted:I'm honestly fuckin baffled as to what MAS's game is here, there has got to be some kind of strategy behind this but from the outside this deal seems to fly in the face of, like, basic human self-preservation instincts. these instincts are selected. not everyone will exhibit these instincts
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Nov 25, 2019 06:07
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gradenko_2000 posted:I mean to be fair the milhist thread really is inhabited by libs (and a monarchist?) so there is that Today’s hot take from the milhist thread seems to be that John Brown had it coming because he engaged in “extralegal mob violence”. 
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Nov 25, 2019 07:19
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upgrading my mob violence from legal to extra-legal by recruiting some lawyers
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Nov 25, 2019 07:29
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agreeing to negotiate gives you time to get your people out of harm's way. they've been at this in some form or another for five hundred years.
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Nov 25, 2019 07:49
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as long as they're continuing to arm themselves, they can do whatever they feel is right. because that's what these things (sadly) always come down to
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Nov 25, 2019 07:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:I mean to be fair the milhist thread really is inhabited by libs (and a monarchist?) so there is that What's the difference
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Nov 25, 2019 08:00
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Stairmaster posted:arent you that guy who made an rear end of himself in the a/t mil hist thread and got dunked on by all the libs there thats a pretty big loving failure lol I'll admit to a deluge of optimism, that led to me to think people that are steeped in history would be capable of analyzing things with a critical eye and realise that many of the criticisms of Soviets were overblown or manufactured by their enemies, but I was dogpiled and my sources ignored or called too radical to be believed, so I took a couple probations and then looked at their average number of posters in that forum, and figured it was a waste of time and effort, since there weren't enough uncommitted lurkers to be worth it. I don't regret it, since it caused further refinement of my arguments. "Stalin did nothing wrong!" may not be 100% true, but its effects in enraging liberals and fascists (but I repeat myself) can not be denied.
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Nov 25, 2019 08:18
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