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What's the best way to approach one's boss for a raise? It's become clear that I'm undervalued, and I need to either get more money at my current position or find a new one. I've heard approaching a boss with a competing offer can be fairly antagonistic but at the same time I don't know how to establish a current market rate without an offer in hand.
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Nov 25, 2019 18:12
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Unfortunately the best way to get a significant pay bump is to get a new job.
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Nov 25, 2019 18:20
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If you *really* like the job, then talking to your boss about your needs is good. If you only like your job (or less), just start applying. Youll find other jobs you like. Getting a raise due to a counter offer just sets a bad precedent. You dont want to have to do that every time you want a raise.
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Nov 25, 2019 18:30
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prom candy posted:Unfortunately the best way to get a significant pay bump is to get a new job. This is what it took for me unfortunately. When I went to my boss about it all I got was taken to lunch and showered in platitudes. "We really value you and want you to know that we'd appreciate it if you'd stay" etc etc. lifg posted:Getting a raise due to a counter offer just sets a bad precedent. You don't want to have to do that every time you want a raise. The precedent is unfortunately already set when companies don't bother giving their good employees a worthwhile raise on a regular basis. Some folks might be lucky to work at a place that gives them reasonable raises, but I found out at my last job that the new guy they just hired straight out of college made 5k less than me (after I had given that company 6, nearly 7 years and barely got a few raises). They wouldn't even counter-offer when I went job hunting. Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 25, 2019 |
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Nov 25, 2019 18:44
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A company's ideal employee is loyal and underpaid, so if you go to the boss saying you're thinking about jumping ship and you want to be paid more you're also giving them two reasons to start thinking about your replacement.
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Nov 25, 2019 19:51
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A lot of companies are very reluctant to give out massive pay raises (20% or more) even if they abstractly recognize that you're significantly underpaid, and even if they're willing to hire new employees at a more reasonable level. The usual reasoning is that you've been happy enough with your lower pay to stay at the company, which is of course true to a degree, but also discounts the possibility that you've been unhappy enough to think about quitting. Telling the company that you're thinking of quitting can be enough to shake them out of that stupor, especially if you've actually interviewed elsewhere and have a counter-offer. However, if you're going to try that, you need to be willing to actually walk. It will change the relationship between you and your boss, and you will not be able to do it multiple times. First of all, if you find yourself wanting to do this twice, it means there's just a disconnect about your value to the company, and they are very unlikely to give you the raise you want the second time. But more importantly, the threat will probably have changed things so that you are somewhat less important to them. No company can be completely insulated from departures, but ideally a departure will just threaten schedules or restrict future plans, not totally bring things to a halt. It's easy for developers in a team to each specialize in ways that make them all crucial in their own way, but managers are supposed to be on top of that, if for no other reason than that it should still be possible to fix critical bugs if the specialist has gone on vacation. Even if they've been lax, if you actually threaten to leave, it will wake them up and force them to actually plan for your departure. Even if you choose to stay, the pay bump you win will in some sense just be buying them time to ensure that the company is protected. I'm not saying they'll be trying to make you redundant so they can fire you; I'm just saying that they'll be making sure other people have some expertise in what you do, and they probably won't be making plans around you that would be completely wrecked if you decide to leave after all. So
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Nov 25, 2019 20:16
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vonnegutt posted:What's the best way to approach one's boss for a raise? It's become clear that I'm undervalued, and I need to either get more money at my current position or find a new one. I've heard approaching a boss with a competing offer can be fairly antagonistic but at the same time I don't know how to establish a current market rate without an offer in hand. If you have a good relationship with your manager and really like your job the best thing to do is open a conversation sooner rather than later. Pay adjustments can take time, so if you are starting a conversation with "I need more money next paycheck" its probably too late. If you are willing to work with them over a quarter or so it becomes a lot more likely that something can be done (maybe with combinations of merit, out-of-cycle, promotion, etc). Any good people manager should be comfortable having this conversation, when people talk to me, as a people manager, about it I usually find they are way more uncomfortable than I am. I also find things get way easier when people have a number they want to hit. I know its bad to anchor yourself, but if you don't give me a number I have to make one up (since I need one to talk to HR and VP-levels to get approval). I've had realistic conversations with people on why we cannot hit their target numbers and it doesn't have to be a fight. If you work somewhere reasonably large you aren't getting fired for that, it's really hard to get fired for stuff like that almost anywhere. You can also talk to mentors in other departments to get a realistic view on what will happen if you ask for more money. Obviously you need someone you really trust in another department for that, but I've had people in other groups talk to me about that and I think I've been able to help them start off with some realistic expectations. This is all assuming you like this job. If you think a move is appealing then: rjmccall posted:Stuff Is all really good advice. I don't think the above applies if you say "Hey, I like it here but I think I should be paid more", but if you do go in with a counter it will fundamentally change your relationship with your job (and that doesn't have to be a bad thing). prom candy posted:A company's ideal employee is loyal and underpaid, so if you go to the boss saying you're thinking about jumping ship and you want to be paid more you're also giving them two reasons to start thinking about your replacement. This is not true and actively bad advice because it causes a lot of people to become stuck because they don't think they can talk to their management, cutting off a potential avenue to improve their quality of life. Your boss doesn't get more money by paying you less, we actually don't really care much day to day about how much people make and those that do care about those nickels don't know your name and have very little control over decisions about replacing people. In fact, again, in most corporations it is really hard to fire people. Right now it's really, really hard to find good devs, so companies are more willing now to pay to retain people.
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Nov 25, 2019 20:56
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Thanks everyone. Pretty much confirms what I figured - probably shouldn't try to use a counteroffer for a raise unless I'm ready to jump ship. Basically the situation I'm in is a very small company with no real annual review or raise schedule, and while I was happy with what they offered me when I was hired, I've been there several years without so much as a cost-of-living adjustment. At this point I think I could easily get a new job with a title bump and pay to match, so I should probably just do that. I guess I should try the "Hey, if you hired me at my current experience level you'd have to pay ${salary} + $30k, so maybe give me $10k so I don't feel like a dumbass staying" talk, any advice?
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Nov 25, 2019 22:05
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vonnegutt posted:
If your market value is current salary + 30k don't open your negotiation at current salary + 10k.
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Nov 25, 2019 22:56
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vonnegutt posted:Thanks everyone. Pretty much confirms what I figured - probably shouldn't try to use a counteroffer for a raise unless I'm ready to jump ship. Basically the situation I'm in is a very small company with no real annual review or raise schedule, and while I was happy with what they offered me when I was hired, I've been there several years without so much as a cost-of-living adjustment. At this point I think I could easily get a new job with a title bump and pay to match, so I should probably just do that. "I'm still making what you hired me at and I think my market is higher. Can we talk about this?" Seems like a really good way to start a conversation and "several years" should probably be higher than $10k above market. Again, if you really like it there I'd start with a conversation. If you get pushback then you know what you're worth to them there. If they can't meet you where you think you should be I'd suggest thinking hard about finding something new.
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Nov 26, 2019 00:56
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vonnegutt posted:I guess I should try the "Hey, if you hired me at my current experience level you'd have to pay ${salary} + $30k, so maybe give me $10k so I don't feel like a dumbass staying" talk, any advice? Poke through Ask A Manager for advice, shes great at this. I recommend having this conversation no matter what you decide to do. Its a hard conversation to have, and having some practice will be good.
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Nov 26, 2019 04:39
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prom candy posted:If your market value is current salary + 30k don't open your negotiation at current salary + 10k. It's tricky to convince a company that they are actually paying you 30% less than they should be (obviously). I would encourage you (vonnegutt), if you're feeling uncomfortable with approaching your boss and telling them that you're worth salary + 30k, to apply to other jobs whether your plan is to open by giving your current employer an opportunity to counter-offer or not. Walking into that conversation completely prepared to walk away totally changes your bargaining position, your confidence will impact how you are received, and you can always decide to tell them about the competing offer depending on how they respond but, as others have mentioned, you can't roll that back in the other direction. Obviously you know your boss a lot better than we doyou could have a lovely/inexperienced manager who doesn't realize that giving your employees the opportunity for career advancement is extremely important or they could be well aware that they can exploit the fact that people get comfortable and changing jobs is kind of a pain.
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Nov 26, 2019 14:34
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Makeout Patrol posted:It's hard to say without specifics but at the broadest, most general level, my experience is that it is easier to write new code and tests that do one specific thing than it is to cram new functionality into code that was never intended for it. Thank you everybody for the advice. I ended up reusing my data caches with the new data because it absolutely fit, and wrote new functions for retrieving and handling that data. It works well, the code is easy to follow, the unit tests are exact, and there's not a lot of bloat. And it came in a week before the deadline!
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Nov 28, 2019 15:55
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Normal Person: yeah we do 10 day sprints it's pretty good. This Guy: hold my beer https://twitter.com/zerogeewhiz/status/1200335981636767744
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Nov 29, 2019 10:26
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100 yard dash? for babies! here we only run 46,145-yard dashes!
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Nov 29, 2019 10:52
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Seems like someone looked at their pile of conflicts with 'Being Agile' and decided "At the end of every sprint, you should have a release" was the foremost consideration.
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Nov 29, 2019 12:16
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At the end of the day, if the previous process was a year long waterfall that produced a full project, going to a 3-month sprint is still an improvement. But, from that tweet it looks like it's referring to the team leads and executives. For them, yeah, I can see having fortnight checkins as being often enough, 90 day sprints as being reasonable enough. Presumably the teams under them can have 1-2 weeks sprints and daily standups.
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Nov 29, 2019 13:17
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I said... we are working *Agile* so this release cycle is called a *Sprint*... Look, we spend a lot of money on this and the guy ensured us that his agile framework is scalable for enterprises or something and everyone is working agile now so we should too.
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Nov 29, 2019 13:20
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Pile Of Garbage posted:Normal Person: yeah we do 10 day sprints it's pretty good. Why not just make the "fortnightly check-in" the sprint?
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Nov 29, 2019 17:05
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SimonChris posted:Why not just make the "fortnightly check-in" the sprint? He's a government minister he's probably using words without understanding the meaning. I bet the sprint is the fortnightly checkin and quarterly they do a larger planning session.
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Nov 29, 2019 17:16
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The UK should learn from that: "It's not a Brexit extension, it's a Brexit sprint!".
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Nov 29, 2019 17:35
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vonnegutt posted:What's the best way to approach one's boss for a raise? It's become clear that I'm undervalued, and I need to either get more money at my current position or find a new one. I've heard approaching a boss with a competing offer can be fairly antagonistic but at the same time I don't know how to establish a current market rate without an offer in hand. In your position I'd try to cite things you've been working on and accomplished and show comparable salary ranges in your area with those tasks listed. Also show you'd be willing to take on more responsibilities that further increases your value to the company.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:15
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As someone who works as part of that MPs portfolio, he means PI instead of sprints. We're a SAFE shop. Our sprints are a regular ten days, and our releases are on that rough 90 day cadence.
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Nov 30, 2019 21:20
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Aaronicon posted:As someone who works as part of that MPs portfolio, he means PI instead of sprints. We're a SAFE shop. Our sprints are a regular ten days, and our releases are on that rough 90 day cadence. I am glad to hear you and your boss are next level.
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Nov 30, 2019 21:40
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Aaronicon posted:As someone who works as part of that MPs portfolio, he means PI instead of sprints. We're a SAFE shop. Our sprints are a regular ten days, and our releases are on that rough 90 day cadence. Posting to defend your boss, shameful
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Dec 2, 2019 07:00
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Cuntpunch posted:Seems like someone looked at their pile of conflicts with 'Being Agile' and decided "At the end of every sprint, you should have a release" was the foremost consideration. If this was being done consciously it's not even that bad. At least you're being honest with yourself. IMO, releasing working software is the only "real" feedback. If you're not releasing often enough, creating artificial shorter loops just hides the issue. Messyass fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 10:30
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Pile Of Garbage posted:Posting to defend your boss, shameful I'm a career public servant in IT who hasn't jumped ship to contracting. I'm either shameless or have brain worms. Both? Both.
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Dec 2, 2019 12:23
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Finally, we can ditch Jira! ...well, probably no panacea but I'm quite curious about it.
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Dec 5, 2019 20:45
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Sagacity posted:Finally, we can ditch Jira! Ah, the classic XKCD comic 927 made manifest with project management software.
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Dec 5, 2019 21:24
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Protocol7 posted:Ah, the classic XKCD comic 927 made manifest with project management software. I mean, the main problem with JIRA isn't that there are too many project management tools, it's that JIRA is terrible
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Dec 5, 2019 21:28
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Steve French posted:I mean, the main problem with JIRA isn't that there are too many project management tools, it's that JIRA is terrible I never said anything about that, but ok. I don't disagree that it is poo poo. The Jetbrains offering better come with some type of migration though else it's basically DOA. Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 5, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2019 21:35
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Sagacity posted:Finally, we can ditch Jira! 
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Dec 5, 2019 22:52
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External recruiters: Pros: They send you a gift basket at Christmas time. Cons: Most everything else.
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Dec 11, 2019 17:39
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https://twitter.com/lukadotnet/status/1203751211817742336?s=09 I'll just leave this here.
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Dec 12, 2019 09:26
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Yeah I saw that and it's quite remarkable. The company I'm currently at has its own heavyweight process that is based on the DoD's old MIL standard. They are now trying to do some half-assed agile transition and they are really tempted by SAFe. Now that out of all organisations the DoD is expressing this view, that's just great ammo for me to help keep SAFe out.
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Dec 12, 2019 10:20
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Keetron posted:I'll just leave this here. I love the folks defending SAFe in the thread. I'll admit it had a few benefits at my old job but it was nothing that simply couldn't be cherry-picked from the SAFe workflow. No reason to get aboard the whole agile release train at all.
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Dec 12, 2019 13:59
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SaFe in my experience just sets the whole org up to enable people to build their fiefdoms and get absolutely loving nothing into production. It only feeds itself, it's a complete loving waste of time.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:01
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It encouraged the "throw a project over the wall to another team" type of workflow at my old job. So long as your team's commitments were met, nothing else mattered. The PI Planning meetings were great too but it turns out there are benefits in forcing your whole company to work together. Shouldn't need a consultant-built framework to tell you that.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:04
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Hello I'm a computerman who is a very good front end developer but I kind of want to gently caress with some algorithms & data structures so I wanna know if there is a udemy course that anybody would recommend for that. Language doesn't really matter too much because I am pretty confident that it wouldn't take too long to get up to speed with syntax and poo poo, but my background is javascript so I would actually prefer not to do a course that uses javascript
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Dec 15, 2019 01:58
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vonnegutt posted:What's the best way to approach one's boss for a raise? It's become clear that I'm undervalued, and I need to either get more money at my current position or find a new one. I've heard approaching a boss with a competing offer can be fairly antagonistic but at the same time I don't know how to establish a current market rate without an offer in hand. I got a bump of about 25k by telling my boss that I don't want to go through the bs of pretending like I want to find a new job just to get an offer to show him just so that we can start talking about a raise v  v
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Dec 15, 2019 02:06
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