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After The Leftovers I was surprised (maybe I shouldn't be since given the ratings) that people still called Damon Lindelof the 'Lost guy' in a derogatory way or made snide comments when Lindelof's name came up. So I am not surprised he has delivered, but this even surpassed my expectations. grate deceiver posted:These last two eps were probably the best of the entire show so far, but overall it's still kinda dumb confused mess. I'm still not getting what everyone sees in it. I've even seen someone here saying it surpassed the original? Seriously? When it pretty much misses the original's point at every turn? This is what passes for great writing to you? Nah in a month I have a feeling it will get my vote for best show of 2019 (depends no which show sticks it's landing better, this or Mr. Robot). Funny, while the show is a so-called mystery box, the last things I would ever call this show is dumb (last night episode was the smartest thing I've seen on TV in awhile) or a mess. Even my wife, who has never read the graphic novel and who hated the movie, loves it. She is someone who only watched it because Lindelof was attached and was dreading it. I wouldn't say it surpassed the source material, but I would it has honored it. Edit: I just remembered that I still have a Jack avatar on here. nate fisher fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 14:37
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Didn't Will point his flashlight at Angela when she drove up? I wonder if he got her to get rid of the stool and also raise Judd up higher.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:09
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Blackfyre posted:I still can't decide if I like this show or not. Yeah reminds me of Westworld S2. It had 2 amazing 5/5 episodes that can exist independently from the show and the rest of the reason were straight 2/5 poo poo. I am afraid the Watchmen show central theme has nothing to do with the American racism this episode tackle and its just about Vietnamese girl saving Jeremy Irons.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:25
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twistedmentat posted:Man when I try to go to Peteypedia, it just kicks me back to the HBO.ca site. Even when i log in it still won't let me go to it. I bet there is region locks on it for some dumb reason. I had the same problem. Delete your cookies for HBO (or open an incognito window) and go straight to the Peteypedia page. It will take you to a page asking to go to the HBO.ca site or continue to HBO.com instead, pick the HBO.com one. For whatever reason the content isn't mirrored on HBO.ca.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:30
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HBO released episode titles for the rest of the season; of particular note is that Episode 8 is titled A God Walks Into a Bar and concerns "Angela's mysterious past in Vietnam." Make of that what you will. Also episodes 8 and 9 are scheduled to run a little over an hour, which is kind of surprising. Given the unconventional number of episodes I would've expected the finale to be longer than usual.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:41
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Re, Nelson Gardiner’s will: Some of the “intellectual property rights” include ‘characters’ like Captain Axis and the Screaming Skull. How do the Minutemen own rights over the bad guys? Unless Captain Metropolis creates them in the first place. False flags all the way down.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:45
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Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis were in fact gay in the comic, right? I last read it years ago. I remember from Nite Owl 1's book that Captain Metropolis was gay, belying his socially upstanding, racist, hippie-hating, "Ideal 50s White Guy" persona. I don't seem to remember much about Hooded Justice beyond the "he might have been this German powerlifter" and "he was sort of a Nazi sympathizer" things. Did the text say that he and Captain Metropolis were a couple? I'm only asking because I've lent out my copy of the comic, and more importantly the Watchmen wiki is polluted with the Before Watchmen and Doomsday Clock stuff, and I can't tell where stuff from those ends and the actual comic begins. edit: Nieuw Amsterdam posted:Re, Nelson Gardiner’s will: It's like in The Venture Bros. when OSI takes down S.P.H.I.N.X. and confiscates all their stuff, and then later ex-OSI members re-purpose the mothballed S.P.H.I.N.X. gear and the S.P.H.I.N.X. brand for their new org that fights unlicensed supervillains. Joke Miriam fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 15:49
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whatever7 posted:I am afraid the Watchmen show central theme has nothing to do with the American racism this episode tackle and its just about Vietnamese girl saving Jeremy Irons. Dear god dude have you been paying attention to this show at all? What other central theme has the show even bothered to address? grate deceiver posted:
Dude its one of the best reviewed shows this year, has good viewership numbers and is being pushed hard for Golden Globes and inevitably Emmys by HBO, and itll most likely win a few. Its pretty much the only new show people are talking about at my job and on my social feeds. Why is it so hard to believe this show is doing really well and people really like it? I understand having gripes with this show but being confused as to why its doing well is just so rediculous.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:01
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feedmyleg posted:In what regard? Like, every regard? I'm sorry, I know this is a bad answer, but I'm really struggling to find a single thing that connects it to the original. I'm having a hard time coming up with what this show is even about. Watchmen was a comic written about and kinda still during the nuclear war scare. I don't know, like Alan Moore or not, but it had something to tell, and it told it effectively. Also, the costumed heros we're all broken weirdos, perverts, or just straight up war criminals serving a fascistic imperialist state, dealing with their hosed up past. And there was Dr. Manhattan, acting as a stand-in for the US military dominance, but also as God, deciding whether this messed up world is worth saving. Yes, there was a mystery, a big conspiracy that you find out about in the last issue, but you didn't have to wait until then to know what it was all about and what was the central theme, because it was all there from the start. What is the new Watchmen about? I don't know, something about cops actually being good I suppose? The whole things about masked cops is really confused. It seems like it also wants to be about racism, but it's kinda the movie fantasy racism, not actual real racism. The handling of the Tulsa massacre is kinda clumsy at best. The politics of this show is generic hollywood guy lib poo poo. I'm not really sure what any of the factions and characters want, they just recite foreshadowing at the camera. Laurie has been living with Veidt's secret for what, 30 years, but you wouldn't know it without reading the comic. She does kinda miss Manhattan's dong, I guess they had to give her some connection to the past. Veidt himself is also weird, they made him into a goofy mad scientist, straight out of Rick and Morty, killing clones and building wacky contraptions. Also, instead of people interacting like people and dealing with their past and problems, we have magic memory pills, exposition cd-roms and racist hypnosis machine, par for the course for Lindeloff I suppose. Turns out you can hypnotise people with a regular flashlight even to move the plot forward. nate fisher posted:Nah in a month I have a feeling it will get my vote for best show of 2019 Really. In a year where we had Fleabag, Russian Doll, new Bojack, Undone, new Good Place, Chernobyl, this is the best? Even in the genre of mystery/thriller shows, I'd place it below The OA and latest True Detective.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:02
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whatever7 posted:I am afraid the Watchmen show central theme has nothing to do with the American racism this episode tackle and its just about Vietnamese girl saving Jeremy Irons.  it starts with the Tulsa massacre and racism/racists have been mentioned in just about every single episode. And the last episode was even about how Hooded Justice needed to pretend to be white under the mask!
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Nov 26, 2019 16:04
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:Re, Nelson Gardiner’s will: In the original Ozymandias held the toy rights to Moloch. I imagine that after they've retired he knocks on their door and asks if they want to cash in. Also this is a find i wish I could claim credit for but I saw it on reddit, the Oklahoma! song played at the end of Ep 1 "Pore Jud is Daid" is a song where a character tries to persuade Jud to hang himself. quote:Then the preacher'd get up and he'd say:
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Nov 26, 2019 16:04
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Kazy posted:Didn't Will point his flashlight at Angela when she drove up? I wonder if he got her to get rid of the stool and also raise Judd up higher. He did but it was just in flashlight mode (steady beam) not hypnotize mode (flashing strobe)
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Nov 26, 2019 16:08
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grate deceiver posted:What is the new Watchmen about? I don't know, something about cops actually being good I suppose? So how does the scene where the black protagonist discovers her white chief of police mentor had a klan uniform in a secret compartment of his house square with your idea that the new Watchmen is about "cops actually being good"?
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Nov 26, 2019 16:10
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grate deceiver posted:Like, every regard? I'm sorry, I know this is a bad answer, but I'm really struggling to find a single thing that connects it to the original. I'm having a hard time coming up with what this show is even about. Maybe you should rewatch a couple of eps and revisit some thoughts before posting then? It's funny to me the people that claim they get the comic book but it's probably only after years of others contributing their analysis and a consensus being made. I have a hunch that if the comic book was coming out in real time they'd say the same stuff. "I don't really get what Watchmen is about? What do the different factions want?? It's a confusing mess"
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Nov 26, 2019 16:12
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Joke Miriam posted:Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis were in fact gay in the comic, right? I last read it years ago. I remember from Nite Owl 1's book that Captain Metropolis was gay, belying his socially upstanding, racist, hippie-hating, "Ideal 50s White Guy" persona. I don't seem to remember much about Hooded Justice beyond the "he might have been this German powerlifter" and "he was sort of a Nazi sympathizer" things. Did the text say that he and Captain Metropolis were a couple? It’s assumed they were through supplemental material like Under the Hood, but all of it is from second-hand sources like Hollis Mason.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:12
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grate deceiver posted:The handling of the Tulsa massacre is kinda clumsy at best. What about it struck you as clumsy?
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Nov 26, 2019 16:12
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Both this show and the original Watchmen, among other things, interrogate the question of what drives a person to put on a mask and beat up criminals as a vigilante. The original Watchmen suggested it had to do with trauma, personality disorders, straight-up psychopathy, and the convenience of identifiable heroes and archetypes to further the ends of larger systemic powers. The new Watchmen adds onto that, most notably in Episode 6, by investigating how people use anonymity and mythmaking to subvert or bypass existing power structures and societal discrimination, while still being limited and bound by those same societal structures. Again it shows how myths take on a life of their own, how they're appropriated, exploited, and misinterpreted/reinterpreted through the lens of revisionist history. The original Watchmen did this against the backdrop of the cold war and the military-industrial complex, while the new Watchmen does it against the backdrop of America's racist legacy that it simultaneously denies, asserts, and wrestles with, sometimes by the same people.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:26
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Xanderkish posted:So how does the scene where the black protagonist discovers her white chief of police mentor had a klan uniform in a secret compartment of his house square with your idea that the new Watchmen is about "cops actually being good"? Yea, but the main POV character is also a cop, Looking Glass is a cop, Laurie is a cop, HJ was a cop, so I get the feeling that the message is "ok guys, some cops may be bad, but some are good too, it's complicated!". In other words some dumb lib poo poo that completely sidesteps systemic critique. KoRMaK posted:Maybe you should rewatch a couple of eps and revisit some thoughts before posting then? I'm not that much into comics, I've read Watchemen a few years ago for the first time probably on SA's suggestion, and recently I've re-read it around ep 4 thinking it might improve my experience with this show. I don't know what to tell you - I've liked the comic then, I like it now, the show is still ok to meh.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:34
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massive spider posted:In the original Ozymandias held the toy rights to Moloch. I forgot about that! Maybe on Earth-W copyright law works differently and heroes are entitled to villain IP.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:41
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I understand this show doesnt get a critical pass because of its subject matter but some of you better be PoC because some of the poo poo youre probably unknowingly throwing at the black writers and directors working on this show is reaaaaaallly off base, regardless if you think this show has flaws. Like honestly imagine telling them "im sorry accomplished black artist you arent addressing real racism and the politics youre playing a crucial part in informing is just white hollywood guy lib bullshit because Lindelof" Keep in mind only 4 of the 12 writers are straight white men. One of the writers on this show, Christal Henry, is a black woman who was a former police officer in Chicago.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:41
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grate deceiver posted:Yea, but the main POV character is also a cop, Looking Glass is a cop, Laurie is a cop, HJ was a cop, so I get the feeling that the message is "ok guys, some cops may be bad, but some are good too, it's complicated!". In other words some dumb lib poo poo that completely sidesteps systemic critique. HJ was a cop who realized the entire police force was compromised and became a vigilante to actually do what he originally became a cop to do. I'm not sure how that doesn't count as a systemic critique.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:42
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grate deceiver posted:Yea, but the main POV character is also a cop, Looking Glass is a cop, Laurie is a cop, HJ was a cop, so I get the feeling that the message is "ok guys, some cops may be bad, but some are good too, it's complicated!". In other words some dumb lib poo poo that completely sidesteps systemic critique. Do you need every cop to be a Snidely Whiplash type villain or KKK member? It looks like most of Tulsa PD is part of 7K at this point, and even Sister Night and Looking Glass do hosed up poo poo despite being sympathetic. Like, they run a drat black site.
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Nov 26, 2019 16:49
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Xanderkish posted:HJ was a cop who realized the entire police force was compromised and became a vigilante to actually do what he originally became a cop to do. I'm not sure how that doesn't count as a systemic critique. *sees 3 white cops drag two lynched bodies behind their car to intimidate a black colleague* "Wow getting really sick of this show's pro-cop agenda"
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Nov 26, 2019 17:05
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nate fisher posted:
Jack Beard is still my favorite dumb thing from Lost.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:11
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Do you need every cop to be a Snidely Whiplash type villain or KKK member? It looks like most of Tulsa PD is part of 7K at this point But for some reason they're still having machinegun shootouts with eachother, even though the senator and police chief were supposed to be working together or something. Also so far the actions against 7K are kinda shown as justified, since they're a bunch on insane racist terrorists. We have 3 episodes left and I haven't seen any characters reflect on it. I don't know, as I said, I'm willing to see where it all goes in the end. I would also rather see someone explain to me how memory pills, flashlight hypnosis and Veidt's CD are good writing that surpasses the original.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:14
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Guy A. Person posted:*sees 3 white cops drag two lynched bodies behind their car to intimidate a black colleague* The show doesn't have a pro-cop agenda, clearly....but you realize that he was flashing back to Tulsa, right? They weren't literally dragging bodies down a NYC street.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:19
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grate deceiver posted:I would also rather see someone explain to me how memory pills, flashlight hypnosis and Veidt's CD are good writing that surpasses the original. I'd counter by saying the crux of the original is a massive psychic squid, but I think that's the wrong framing for my argument because I really don't give a single poo poo about what's "too ridiculous" for you to accept. It doesn't matter. The Veidt CD and the memory pills were key parts of the last two episodes' arcs, and helped make them as amazing as they were, so why do you care if it's absurd?
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Nov 26, 2019 17:22
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grate deceiver posted:I would also rather see someone explain to me how memory pills, flashlight hypnosis and Veidt's CD are good writing that surpasses the original. Veidt stopped the cold war by teleporting a giant false flag psychic vagina squid into the middle of Manhattan. Edit: Jinx but also Arist is right.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:22
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grate deceiver posted:I would also rather see someone explain to me how memory pills, flashlight hypnosis and Veidt's CD are good writing that surpasses the original. I mean you'd have to have to ask the person who you saw saying it surpassed the original. I don't think that's remotely the majority opinion here at all, so making that the standard that everyone has to argue against is just bizarre straw-manning. I also am wary of you equating "good writing" and "surpassing the original" because those aren't the same thing and seems like a convenient fall back for when people try to argue the writing is good. ganthony posted:The show doesn't have a pro-cop agenda, clearly....but you realize that he was flashing back to Tulsa, right? They weren't literally dragging bodies down a NYC street. Yeah sorry, I worded it clumsily to make a flippant point.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:28
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I wouldn't say the show surpasses the original comic book, but the pills, flashlight hypnosis, and even Veidt's CD all revolve around the ideas about how events in the past shape the present/future and will even re-emerge in the present if they weren't properly resolved in the past the first place. The Minutemen did not come together to defeat the KKK, leading to present problems (And the reason why Hooded Justice even has the flashlight today). Veidt got away with his squid plan, and he's likely to re-emerge in the present again too. On a literal level the pills cause the past's existence to assert itself on Sister Night. It's all about legacy, and to me part of good writing (At least in the mode Watchmen the HBO show is working in) is there being thematic purpose to plot developments. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 17:34
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Kill All Cops posted:Strobe wasn't obnoxious until it got to Judd, then it was focused on his face far longer than it needed to be. The Pokemon epilepsy episode wasn't as bad as that, was it? Yeah I seriously think it was worse than the pokemon episode, although pokemon was bright colors (IIRC red and yellow?) which may have been worse? Still, you'd think "hm, we're having to put a disclaimer on this one episode of a tv show" should a make you stop and just reconsider another way of doing it.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:47
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Talking about whether the show surpasses the original is also just weird in a lot of ways. The original Watchmen massively changed the direction of comic books and pushed the genre forward in unprecedented ways. A lot of fiction, not just comic books, were hugely influenced by it. Part of what made it so powerful is how much it contrasted with what came before (and how it still contrasts with what's coming out now). The new Watchmen, by definition, exists in the shadow of the original. It can't hope to have the same influence without also departing from the source material. More than that, it's telling a story in a media environment that is, if not saturated, already crowded with similar stories telling similar themes. It may tell these stories particularly well, and I think it does, but it also just isn't going to stand out as much. Also, the new Watchmen is focusing on different, but similar, issues compared to the original. The original didn't talk much about race, all of the main characters were white and straight and most were men. The original was in the shadow of a world-ending apocalypse, while the show is focusing less on fear of the future but grappling with the legacies of the past. I'm not saying comparisons are stupid (I'm obviously making them now), but I think asking which is "better" feels like a charged question.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:48
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AccountSupervisor posted:I understand this show doesnt get a critical pass because of its subject matter but some of you better be PoC because some of the poo poo youre probably unknowingly throwing at the black writers and directors working on this show is reaaaaaallly off base, regardless if you think this show has flaws. Eh I'm black and I still think the supposed amount of black presence behind a show (owned and operated by an almost uniformly white execs) shouldn't be a constraint in criticizing it for its themes and politics. Black people aren't a monolith and plenty of us are more likely to sympathize with the other side than our own. Tho in this case there really isn't much to complain about, lol. The heroes are cops, but the show has done a great job showing how much that occupation is constrained and infiltrated and ultimately a tool of powerful white supremacy.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:51
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grate deceiver posted:Yea, but the main POV character is also a cop, Looking Glass is a cop, Laurie is a cop, HJ was a cop, so I get the feeling that the message is "ok guys, some cops may be bad, but some are good too, it's complicated!". In other words some dumb lib poo poo that completely sidesteps systemic critique. What in the gently caress is this  I would understand this take after the first episode of Watchmen. I kinda felt the same way. Where is this show going and what is its commentary on police? If you still wonder that after this last episode, I do not know what the gently caress show you are watching but it wasn't Watchmen. Guy A. Person posted:*sees 3 white cops drag two lynched bodies behind their car to intimidate a black colleague* For real what in the gently caress
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Nov 26, 2019 17:52
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Do you need every cop to be a Snidely Whiplash type villain or KKK member? It looks like most of Tulsa PD is part of 7K at this point, and even Sister Night and Looking Glass do hosed up poo poo despite being sympathetic. Like, they run a drat black site. And it seems extremely likely that both Sister Midnight and Looking Glass have now been turned against the very police force they served. Each has had their entire worldview shattered.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:53
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Am I to understand that grate deceiver is a dude that just read Watchmen recently b/c of some goons here, isn't that big a fan of the property, but is still here yelling and hollering about the show betraying it? lol peak fanboy itt
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Nov 26, 2019 17:54
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Unless the show is just a line of cops being shot one after another, grate deceiver is going to call it pro-cop He demands 60 minutes of just cops being shot in the head. What are you, a cop lover?? HUH? LIBERAL??? (gently caress that episode even shot like 10 cops in the head, but definitely not enough so somehow that was all still very pro-cop)
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Nov 26, 2019 17:58
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Also been watching the Motion Comic and got to the kind of slapstick scene where Jon and Laurie are making love but it turns out Jon is trying to pleasure her with two Jons while also doing work in the lab/kitchen. Trying to think of what would be a comparable moment in the show.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:58
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Xanderkish posted:Also been watching the Motion Comic and got to the kind of slapstick scene where Jon and Laurie are making love but it turns out Jon is trying to pleasure her with two Jons while also doing work in the lab/kitchen. Probably Jeremy Irons various clone catapult experiments
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Nov 26, 2019 18:03
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Shageletic posted:Eh I'm black and I still think the supposed amount of black presence behind a show (owned and operated by an almost uniformly white execs) shouldn't be a constraint in criticizing it for its themes and politics. Black people aren't a monolith and plenty of us are more likely to sympathize with the other side than our own. Oh for sure, you are absolutely right but since this shows premiere theres been some accusations and characterizations of the shows creatives that has been pretty off base, ignorant and unwilling to acknowledge the diverse perspectives present in the writing room, perspectives that must be respected even when critiquing. I think its a disservice and an insult to people like Stephen Williams, Cord Jefferson and Christal Henry to dismiss this shows politics as just "hollywood lib guy". Theres multiple LBGTQ+ writers on the show and someone in ITT, even if it was a joke, made a comment about not having all that gay sex in HJs memories. Ill even directly quote Lindelof from this article to back you up and also support the awareness of the creative minds behind this show. https://gen.medium.com/damon-lindelof-heard-some-hard-truths-in-the-watchmen-writer-s-room-24101b6c11b7 quote:"I don’t want to violate it in terms of what anyone else’s experience was. Because the white writers aren’t a monolith, the black writers aren’t a monolith, the LGBTQ+ aren’t a monolith. What I had to come to terms with was wanting to bring together a diverse set of voices and experiences, not just in terms of the life they led, skin color, or sexuality, but also what your relationship was to Watchmen. "
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Nov 26, 2019 18:12
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