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No Mods No Masters posted:Leia's blithe, smug assertion that she, someone who can barely walk or speak, has everything she needs to restore herself to power- after ~99.99% of her forces have been killed and the entire galaxy has been conquered by nazis- will remain the most perfect and crystalline expression of a particular political moment You can certainly draw that parallel, though I think your description of her characterization is off. But the bigger issue is that in the context of Star Wars, as both a narrative and a universe, Leia is correct.
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Nov 26, 2019 23:24
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BTW the real reason Palpatine’s back is that Snoke was going to be Darth Plagueis, until everyone guessed it because it was too obvious.John Wick of Dogs posted:One thing TLJ explicitly got right: Nien Nunb survived. Gotta love that guy They failed to instantiate the best possible ending where ONLY Ackbar and Chewie survive, so Episode 9 would be about their adventures thru enemy space with a boatload of Porgs.
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Nov 26, 2019 23:30
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PeterWeller posted:You can certainly draw that parallel, though I think your description of her characterization is off. But the bigger issue is that in the context of Star Wars, as both a narrative and a universe, Leia is correct. The movie is peak hillaryman fantasy, so yes of course it can back up its delusion that this is all just a temporary setback with subsequent contrived events. Only those outside the bubble can perceive its laughability. As for characterization, I take your point that she appears to mainly want to restore the status quo, where she apparently didn't have power beyond running the resistance (whatever it was/is).
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Nov 26, 2019 23:39
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No Mods No Masters posted:The movie is peak hillaryman fantasy, so yes of course it can back up its delusion that this is all just a temporary setback with subsequent contrived events. Only those outside the bubble can perceive its laughability. I get what you're saying and don't entirely disagree, but delusions about the inevitable justice of liberal democratic order are baked into the series as a whole. You'll note that they switch to calling themselves a Rebellion instead of a Resistance by the end of the film. This is because a handful of people huddled in one space ship is exactly how the last Rebellion began at the very end of the prequels. Even those films weren't really critical of liberal democracy. They're less about the failure of the Republic's system and more about the failure of individuals, the Jedi generally, to uphold that system because they had both lost their true faith and were being tricked by a Miltonic evil space wizard.
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Nov 26, 2019 23:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:BTW the real reason Palpatine’s back is that Snoke was going to be Darth Plagueis, until everyone guessed it because it was too obvious. The best bit of ST-related anything is when Rey blurted this out at a convention and Abrams and Kasdan went into absurd denial mode. "Did you say Darth... Vegas?" I'm only in this thread to see the people who liked TLJ and said things like 'You only hate the film because it wasn't what you wanted' to be slapped in the face by Episode 9.
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Nov 27, 2019 00:04
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PeterWeller posted:This is because a handful of people huddled in one space ship is exactly how the last Rebellion began at the very end of the prequels. Even those films weren't really critical of liberal democracy. They're less about the failure of the Republic's system and more about the failure of individuals Uh, no. The basic plot of the prequels is that the Republic is hosed up on a systemic level, everyone hates it, and the closest thing to a solution is provided by Palpatine when he accelerates that poo poo directly into the ground. Jimmy Smitts, in one of his first actions as a leader of the Rebellion, orders C3PO killed. That’s why there’s a Seperatist movement.
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Nov 27, 2019 00:08
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PeterWeller posted:I get what you're saying and don't entirely disagree, but delusions about the inevitable justice of liberal democratic order are baked into the series as a whole. You'll note that they switch to calling themselves a Rebellion instead of a Resistance by the end of the film. This is because a handful of people huddled in one space ship is exactly how the last Rebellion began at the very end of the prequels. Even those films weren't really critical of liberal democracy. They're less about the failure of the Republic's system and more about the failure of individuals, the Jedi generally, to uphold that system because they had both lost their true faith and were being tricked by a Miltonic evil space wizard. To me the "we have everything we need" sentiment is itself the difference. At the end of the prequels there's no confidence among the future rebels per se, just a sense that a long uphill struggle is beginning which is going to require the painstaking construction of a mass movement and even then isn't a sure thing- in the event this takes ~20 years and requires massive luck and sacrifice. This is part of what makes it feel like a laughable dem fantasy when leia says her 8 surviving acolytes have got this, and then one year later they've got this. I do agree with you that it's a little bit sad and pathetic of a baked in assumption throughout that reverting to the republic is the only non-nazi option, when it seems uncontroversial to say that both incarnations of the republic seem pretty clearly horrible on their face. No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Nov 27, 2019 |
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Nov 27, 2019 00:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Uh, no. Smitts' plan as a leader of the Rebellion is to rally other Senators to his cause. He has not lost faith in the system. There's a Seperatist movement because Palps promises the goods to greedy caricatures and recruits a disgruntled Jedi who decided to keep his hereditary title to be their figurehead. No one hates the Republic so much to put their own lives on the line in resistance to its order, which is why both armies need to be manufactured. No Mods No Masters posted:To me the "we have everything we need" sentiment is itself the difference. At the end of the prequels there's no confidence among the future rebels per se, just a sense that a long uphill struggle is beginning which is going to require the painstaking construction of a mass movement and even then isn't a sure thing- in the event this takes ~20 years and requires massive luck and sacrifice. This is part of what makes it feel like a laughable dem fantasy when leia says her 8 surviving acolytes have got this, and then one year later they've got this. That's fair. It does trivialize how monumental the struggle before them is. In a way, this is one of the places where TLJ inverts Empire. In Empire, a strategic victory is rendered tragic by a personal loss. In TLJ, a strategic tragedy is rendered triumphant by a personal victory. The latter is definitely more shallow.
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Nov 27, 2019 00:22
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Lion Archer you’ve got to understand something very fundamental to Star Wars discussion, which was established in these forums years ago and which is a deep truth that unfolds into a myriad of perspectives: Star Wars fans don’t like Star Wars.
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Nov 27, 2019 01:02
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But are the quips on point?
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Nov 27, 2019 01:36
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PeterWeller posted:Smitts' plan as a leader of the Rebellion is to rally other Senators to his cause. He has not lost faith in the system. He kills C3PO. That's a bad action. He's a bad guy. In your view, the system works except for the single bad man who somehow mind-controls the populations of roughly 1000 planets. But he's really unpopular. But, simultaneously, roughly half those trillions of people are "disgruntled and greedy." That's a really nifty rhetorical shift.
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Nov 27, 2019 02:20
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Star Wars fans don’t like Star Wars. Actually I like Star Wars a lot! The original trilogy is miraculous. I wish the new movies were good but, unfortunately, they are bad. edit: in retrospect there's something weird about Star Wars. Trekkies can freely and easily admit that most of the movies are terrible... even that the last few series have been terrible... trekkies can comfortably talk to trekkies while only enjoying 10% of the total franchise. But Star Wars makes people crazyyyyyyyyyy Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 27, 2019 |
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Nov 27, 2019 02:25
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PeterWeller posted:There's a Seperatist movement because Palps promises the goods to greedy caricatures and recruits a disgruntled Jedi who decided to keep his hereditary title to be their figurehead. No one hates the Republic so much to put their own lives on the line in resistance to its order, which is why both armies need to be manufactured. Actually, they have to manufacture people to defend the Republic because no one loves it enough to die for it.
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Nov 27, 2019 02:39
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The point is they have to manufacture armies on both sides because no one really cares enough to fight a war. The war to divide the Republic has to be literally manufactured.SuperMechagodzilla posted:He kills C3PO. That's a bad action. He's a bad guy. I think one could quibble about "kills" here, but I take that as a fair point. But also, the movies as a whole and the prequels in particular are terribly inconsistent on their moral stance around droids. And not my view. The movies' view. The Nemodians are caricatures of greedy others. They're never enthusiastic about the scheme to squeeze Naboo. They're only in it because Sidious tells them it will work and then intimidates them by sending Maul along. Sidious is never "really unpopular." Indeed, one of the points of his whole Naboo scheme is to increase his popularity and become chancellor. We shift forward to Ep2 to eventually learn that the leader of the Seperatists is actually his Sith apprentice and through a scheme of theirs, the Jedi were handed an army by which they were goaded into beginning a war. The war begins not because of widespread disillusionment with the Republic but because Sidious sets up a voice of dissent and then tricks the Jedi into proving his point. Then you get to the original trilogy, which is about restoring liberal democracy from a fascist takeover, and the sequels, which are about defending that liberal democracy from a fascist invasion from the "Unknown Regions."
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Nov 27, 2019 03:12
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I get from a cynical--and not wrong point of view--that the The Resistance and the First Order are just repaints of the Rebellion and Empire to maintain the imagery of the original films despite the ending of the original trilogy. And so any actual depth in the new trilogy is a bit hindered by these two idealogical factions being born out of corporate edict more than a sense of metaphor. Still in the context of the films, I find it a little weird that Leia and the Resistance in general is drafted as being pro-Status Quo. My read on the Resistance was that the Republic had reestablished a status quo that seemed comfortable enough, but was as fundamentally vulnerable as the previous republic. So, you still had these people in the Resistance waving their hands saying, "Hey, the fight isn't over!" despite the establishment not taking them seriously.
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Nov 27, 2019 03:26
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Timeless Appeal posted:I get from a cynical--and not wrong point of view--that the The Resistance and the First Order are just repaints of the Rebellion and Empire to maintain the imagery of the original films despite the ending of the original trilogy. And so any actual depth in the new trilogy is a bit hindered by these two idealogical factions being born out of corporate edict more than a sense of metaphor. I think one of the ideas behind "Palps was always around in the background" is that it helps reconcile this. The New Republic didn't fully deal with the menace, which is why it came back 30 years later. Basically, Palps is It, but a new generation has to finally deal with the (mechanical) spider monster.
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Nov 27, 2019 03:31
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It’s kind of wild that Abrams’ Star Trek movies, while certainly not perfect, are much better than his Star Wars ones. How the hell did that happen?
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Nov 27, 2019 04:08
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PeterWeller posted:I think one of the ideas behind "Palps was always around in the background" is that it helps reconcile this. The New Republic didn't fully deal with the menace, which is why it came back 30 years later. Basically, Palps is It, but a new generation has to finally deal with the (mechanical) spider monster.
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Nov 27, 2019 04:28
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John Wick of Dogs posted:One thing TLJ explicitly got right: Nien Nunb survived. Gotta love that guy How else do you think they're going to find Lando?
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Nov 27, 2019 04:30
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nemesis_hub posted:It’s kind of wild that Abrams’ Star Trek movies, while certainly not perfect, are much better than his Star Wars ones. How the hell did that happen? RoS hasn't come out and Into Darkness is loving garbage so that feels a bit premature.
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Nov 27, 2019 04:39
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nemesis_hub posted:It’s kind of wild that Abrams’ Star Trek movies, while certainly not perfect, are much better than his Star Wars ones. How the hell did that happen? his star trek movies got to be actual reboots, the star wars ST instead act as both chronological sequel and spiritual reboot and end up failing at both
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Nov 27, 2019 04:44
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Doctor Spaceman posted:RoS hasn't come out and Into Darkness is loving garbage so that feels a bit premature. I dunno, man. TFA was dumb as hell, and confusing to boot. Into Darkness was just dumb as hell.
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Nov 27, 2019 04:49
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Doctor Spaceman posted:RoS hasn't come out and Into Darkness is loving garbage so that feels a bit premature. We disagree because I think the quality of RoS is mostly a foregone conclusion (though I’m open to being proved wrong) and I’m one of those weirdos who thought Into Darkness was actually pretty decent. It has some good visual storytelling, cool images/sounds (the bad guy ship attacking at warp is far more memorable than anything in TFA), the editing feels propulsive vs Abrams usual anxiously frenetic, and it has a hilarious “America deserved 911” story. I don’t care that it besmirched the legacy of Wrath of Khan or whatever.
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Nov 27, 2019 04:50
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Into Darkness is a 9/11 truther movie, it's like the loose change kids were given a multi-million dollar budget
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Nov 27, 2019 04:51
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The United States posted:Into Darkness is a 9/11 truther movie, it's like the loose change kids were given a multi-million dollar budget yeah, it rules
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Nov 27, 2019 04:53
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I remember exactly none of Into Darkness but I do remember that I liked it, whereas i remember every excruciating moment with TLJ. feel pretty confident saying Into Darkness was better
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Nov 27, 2019 05:02
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Lion Archer you’ve got to understand something very fundamental to Star Wars discussion, which was established in these forums years ago and which is a deep truth that unfolds into a myriad of perspectives: Star Wars fans don’t like Star Wars. i like pretty much everything Star Wars (including Solo and Rogue One) except TFA and TLJ so suck on my butthole nerd
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Nov 27, 2019 05:09
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, but I feel like TLJ kind of already did this with Snoke. The implication is that there is just some other rear end in a top hat like Palpatine who manages to manipulate his way into a position of power and dispensed with the Democratic structures. Like we don't need three movies to show it because we know how this works. The whole implication of TLJ is that Palpatine isn't particularly special. Yeah, it kinda did. And we definitely didn't need a trilogy to explain how the next big bad came to be. But also Snoke is presented more as an external threat to the liberal democratic order as opposed to Palps being an internal one. Snoke didn't manipulate the system to rise to power. He is some mysterious outsider who kidnapped children to build an invasion force that is successful because the New Republic was apparently war worn and complacent. So Palpatine having been around the entire time is the avatar of that complacency.
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Nov 27, 2019 05:23
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, it kinda did. And we definitely didn't need a trilogy to explain how the next big bad came to be. But also Snoke is presented more as an external threat to the liberal democratic order as opposed to Palps being an internal one. Snoke didn't manipulate the system to rise to power. He is some mysterious outsider who kidnapped children to build an invasion force that is successful because the New Republic was apparently war worn and complacent. So Palpatine having been around the entire time is the avatar of that complacency. is this from the books of something
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Nov 27, 2019 06:09
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I haven't watched the PT in a while. Is there any indication that the Separatist leaders Anakin kills are dastardly industrialists and not union representatives?
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Nov 27, 2019 06:12
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Prince Myshkin posted:I haven't watched the PT in a while. Is there any indication that the Separatist leaders Anakin kills are dastardly industrialists and not union representatives? they're a "confederacy of independent states" who own slaves and much like the us circa the civil war, the 'good guys' also own slaves, and start a war to prevent secession moreso than to do anything about slavery e: sorry, 'systems', not 'states' ungulateman fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Nov 27, 2019 |
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Nov 27, 2019 06:20
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Prince Myshkin posted:I haven't watched the PT in a while. Is there any indication that the Separatist leaders Anakin kills are dastardly industrialists and not union representatives? if they represented the workers of their organization they'd be droids
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Nov 27, 2019 06:42
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Prince Myshkin posted:I haven't watched the PT in a while. Is there any indication that the Separatist leaders Anakin kills are dastardly industrialists and not union representatives? I'm pretty sure the "Intergalactic Banking Clan" does not, in fact, represent the working class...
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Nov 27, 2019 06:47
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How the hell is TFA confusing?? 
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Nov 27, 2019 06:57
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Prince Myshkin posted:I haven't watched the PT in a while. Is there any indication that the Separatist leaders Anakin kills are dastardly industrialists and not union representatives? I assume the leaders of the Corporate Alliance and the Intergalactic Banking Clan are on the side of capital. Bogus Adventure posted:I dunno, man. TFA was dumb as hell, and confusing to boot. Into Darkness was just dumb as hell. I do not see how TFA is more confusing than all of the torpedo bullshit in Into Darkness.
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Nov 27, 2019 07:03
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Torpedoes made sense, whereas I had no loving clue what happened to the New Republic after Starkiller Base blew up 6 or so random planets.
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Nov 27, 2019 07:17
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There’s not much to understand, IMO insofar as tfa sets up anything it was pretty clearly a simple set up to be space pearl harbor to segue into further space world war 2 in the next film. It’s actually rian who is to blame for making the situation extremely nonsensical on that one
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Nov 27, 2019 07:25
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nemesis_hub posted:It’s kind of wild that Abrams’ Star Trek movies, while certainly not perfect, are much better than his Star Wars ones. How the hell did that happen? iirc by his own admission he was never a big trek fan growing up, but absolutely was of star wars. Fan is short for "fanatic". You ever watch one of those ultra Christian movies? Not the kind by Scorsese or even Gibson, but like focus on the family poo poo? Yeah, it's like that
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Nov 27, 2019 07:43
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Bogus Adventure posted:Torpedoes made sense Khan put his buddies in special torpedoes but didn't know what happened to them, and then Marcus gave those torpedos to Kirk. Did Marcus know that he was giving up a huge amount of leverage over Khan? If he did was he just trying to kill them all in an insanely convoluted way? Or did he just not know? I don't see how this is less confusing than an attack that the Republic having difficulty responding to a devastating first strike.
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Nov 27, 2019 08:17
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Khan was smuggling them out of cold storage where RoboCop was holding them hostage. Khan probably chose torpedoes so that they would end up on the battleship he built and could control alone, but Marcus caught them. He gave them to Kirk to carpet bomb Kronos with, which would remove all the evidence and give him the war he felt was necessary. It's just a run of the mill black ops double cross.
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Nov 27, 2019 09:13
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