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I distinctly remember watching TLJ in theaters and thinking "Oh, gently caress off" at the end with the kid playing pretend Jedi with his broom, which felt like one of the most nakedly crass attempts at a nostalgia play I've ever seen, coming from a company and director who had absolutely no claim to that nostalgia.
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Nov 27, 2019 19:34
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I know I've told this story at least a few times across the dozens of forums star wars threads so forgive me, but I still vividly remember the audience in my screening sitting through the entirety of star wars 8 in stony silence excepting 1 cheer moment when one of snoke's bodyguards gets thrown into his throne room woodchipper. This experience deeply shaped my perception of filmmaking
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Nov 27, 2019 19:37
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When TFA ended, I felt some level of intrigue about where the story would go. When TLJ ended, I rolled my eyes and felt zero interest about how they'd finish this trilogy. I'm going to end up watching the "last" movie, but it's basically a sunk cost at this point.
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Nov 27, 2019 19:38
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I distinctly remember watching TLJ in theaters and thinking "Oh, gently caress off" at the end with the kid playing pretend Jedi with his broom, which felt like one of the most nakedly crass attempts at a nostalgia play I've ever seen, coming from a company and director who had absolutely no claim to that nostalgia. I honestly expected the stars in the sky above him to sparkle into a loving Disney logo at the end of it
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Nov 27, 2019 19:49
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the problem with TLJ is that it clashes with a lot of people's expectations about what it should have been, which you may recognize as not being a problem at all
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Nov 27, 2019 19:53
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Bleck posted:
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Nov 27, 2019 19:56
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honestly that's fair, it's definitely not perfect and I didn't mean to imply as much
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Nov 27, 2019 19:57
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Where did the "subverting expectations" meme for TLJ come from? It had to come from an interview or marketing, right?
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Nov 27, 2019 20:11
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pospysyl posted:Where did the "subverting expectations" meme for TLJ come from? It had to come from an interview or marketing, right? I recall RLM harped on it for that specifically and went on to make "SUBVERT YOUR EXPECTATIONS" a recurring gag, so I assume it came from that, as chuds eat their every word. I say this as a fan of their stuff, but boy howdy have they raised a nasty crowd for themselves.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:15
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Bleck posted:the problem with TLJ is that it clashes with a lot of people's expectations about what it should have been, which you may recognize as not being a problem at all There are a ton of reasons why TLJ is a bad film, this is certainty something that got on people's nerves but most of the expectations sound much better than what we got. But yes I didn't expect a your momma joke in the first 5 minutes that did clash with my expectations. And if Rian Johnson wanted to "subvert expectations" he sure did throw all of that away by having such a cookie cutter ending. The one interesting thing he teased was Kylo abandoning the Sith and convincing Rey to abandon the Jedi to settle on something in between but instead by the end it's still two sides, light and dark all over again.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:18
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Bert of the Forest posted:I recall RLM harped on it for that specifically and went on to make "SUBVERT YOUR EXPECTATIONS" a recurring gag, so I assume it came from that, as chuds eat their every word. I say this as a fan of their stuff, but boy howdy have they raised a nasty crowd for themselves. I've associated "subverting expectations" more with GoT, but I could've sworn it was something D&D or someone associated with the series used as an excuse for bullshit story wrinkles.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:19
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Just Chamber posted:by the end it's still two sides, light and dark all over again. Pretty much this. It felt like it could've been the start of a trilogy or series. But it's the middle film. In a narrative sense, they didn't really progress the story in any real meaningful way between the two opposing sides, nor have they raised the stakes going into the conclusion.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:23
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Just Chamber posted:... The one interesting thing he teased was Kylo abandoning the Sith and convincing Rey to abandon the Jedi to settle on something in between but instead by the end it's still two sides, light and dark all over again. Yeah, this was the best thing that came from TLJ - well, almost came from and it was pissed away. Kylo and Rey loving off to to bring balance or something, a better writer could come up with something cool. But how about some more physical comedy!  (yes I know the OT and PT had some comedy bits in em)
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Nov 27, 2019 20:28
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I suppose the door is still open for Kylo to have some sort of interesting plan in mind though. Like maybe his plan is to destroy both sides and then go be a lumberjack or something who knows.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:31
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Basebf555 posted:I suppose the door is still open for Kylo to have some sort of interesting plan in mind though. Like maybe his plan is to destroy both sides and then go be a lumberjack or something who knows. Kylo becoming Ted Kaczynski would be pretty wild.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:33
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Vintersorg posted:Yeah, this was the best thing that came from TLJ - well, almost came from and it was pissed away. Kylo and Rey loving off to to bring balance or something, a better writer could come up with something cool. But...that part was great.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:34
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Bert of the Forest posted:I recall RLM harped on it for that specifically and went on to make "SUBVERT YOUR EXPECTATIONS" a recurring gag, so I assume it came from that, as chuds eat their every word. I say this as a fan of their stuff, but boy howdy have they raised a nasty crowd for themselves. You can't ignore the fact that the film at almost every turn comes across like Rian Jonhson has looked at every scene and thought well in a typical Star Wars movie the audience would expect X so i'll go Y. Which on paper changing some things to go against the status quo of these movies sounds good, but in the TLJ it's so aggressive it feels like someone rolling their eyes at fans of Star Wars.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:46
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The best part of the Subverting Expectations thing is that it doesn't, really? On the balance the film is a fairly straightforward riff on Empire Strikes Back, has all of the same beats just in slightly different order, its just that the specifics aren't exactly the same. All the beats are there and everything largely follows logical storytelling paths, its just that it sucks in execution.
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Nov 27, 2019 20:49
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Gonna be weird when nobody gets a hand chopped off in all three of these new movies snoke dont count
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Nov 27, 2019 20:53
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All I know about TLJ so far is that apparently everything reset back to the Empire being in control offscreen, and the General Hugs goof made me legitimately  .
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Nov 27, 2019 20:57
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Just Chamber posted:it feels like someone rolling their eyes at fans of Star Wars. can you blame 'em
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Nov 27, 2019 21:00
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Nov 27, 2019 21:13
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One of the best things in TLJ is that we learn that Snoke is not new Palpatine but merely a stupid idiot who is doing Palpatine cosplay just like Kylo is doing Darth Vader cosplay. I was ready to forgive the movie everything I disliked when Kylo killed him and teamed up with Rey but everything that followed removed all enthusiasm for Star Wars I had left. The weirdest thing about TLJ is how "preachy" it is. There are so many "lessons" that the movie tries to teach the audience for some reason. You should obey your superiors, you should fight for what you love, you shouldn't think you know what's best, both sides in war are bad etc. The movies is extremely unsubtle with all these messages and beats you over the head with them. OT and PT were never like that and neither was TFA so it seems really out of place to me.
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Nov 27, 2019 21:25
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Snoke sucks and I can't wait to see him die. That said, I do appreciate how they're burying Kylo Ren, because he also sucks. I like how they built up the handoff of the lightsaber to Luke and he just chucks it behind him. This movie is clearly not meant to be a cinematic masterpiece, but it is fun so far.
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Nov 27, 2019 21:34
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kylo is the only interesting character the PT had until the last act of TLJ
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Nov 27, 2019 21:53
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Brother Entropy posted:kylo is the only interesting character the PT had until the last act of TLJ Yep, they did him wrong. Adam Driver is so loving good. He's pretty much the only reason I am interested in this mess.
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Nov 27, 2019 21:56
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My Star Wars porn parody: “Order 69”
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Nov 27, 2019 22:00
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Brother Entropy posted:kylo is the only interesting character the PT had until the last act of TLJ I will say that he is markedly better than the first movie so far. Reach out with your feeeeeelings.
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Nov 27, 2019 22:09
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Rey is interesting for all of her introductory scenes in TFA. Then the plot happens to her. (And I do mean exactly that—she is whisked from set piece to set piece against her will for the rest of the movie.)
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Nov 27, 2019 22:11
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My own take on TLJ is that it's a mess. It's good good stuff mixe din with abd stuff and it's hard to form a coherent opinion as a result. Also both Poe and Admiral Hillary Clinton are terrible.
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Nov 27, 2019 22:37
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MonsieurChoc posted:My own take on TLJ is that it's a mess. It's good good stuff mixe din with abd stuff and it's hard to form a coherent opinion as a result. 
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Nov 27, 2019 22:45
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Okay, I started laughing at the Yoda scene. I don't really understand why people are so up in arms about Luke in this movie. His character arc is pretty interesting to me, though I only watched the remasters of the originals back in like 98 or 99. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Nov 27, 2019 |
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Nov 27, 2019 22:49
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Having just rewatched TLJ as the final movie in my wife and I's recent weeklong Star Wars film binge, I'd honestly say I like it way better than TFA.  Rewatching TFA coming off the original trilogy initially feels sooo much like a retread that all the "subvert your expectations lol" stuff in TLJ just genuinely feels refreshing and fun. Even though he's definitely more of a new character, Old Man Luke is fantastic in all his grumpy, milk-drinking glory. It hits familiar beats for sure, literally taking the structure of Empire (one half training montage, one half running-away-from-baddies-without-use-of-warp-drive) and tweaking things to make you feel like you're not just literally watching the same movie again. I don't ask for much out of these movies, but TFA was way more dull to rewatch than TLJ.
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Nov 27, 2019 22:52
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Cripes, everyone makes me feel old. I watched ANH in the theatre as a kid.
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Nov 27, 2019 23:00
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C-Bangin' it 
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Colostomy Bag posted:Cripes, everyone makes me feel old. I do genuinely wonder, how weird was it when they retroactively slapped a new title on A New Hope? It was just Star Wars before yeah? And then suddenly it had a generic-rear end subtitle?
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Nov 27, 2019 23:02
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The iron faked me out. I really thought that was a fuckin' ship.Colostomy Bag posted:Cripes, everyone makes me feel old. I was 6 when the Return of the Jedi remaster came out  I am almost 30 years old this year. Feeling older now?
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Nov 27, 2019 23:04
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Pollyanna posted:Okay, I started laughing at the Yoda scene. Mostly that at the end of RotJ he doesn't murder his dad, the most evil dude in the universe, because he feels good in him and is rewarded for this correct choice. Then his nephew who hasn't done anything yet has bad visions associated with him so he thinks (if only for a moment) about murdering him in his sleep. There's a disconnect there. You can say like 20 years have passed between those events and Luke has changed, but the audience hasn't seen that so the question of how Luke got from Point A to B is just not on-screen and the story really needed to justify it. But that would probably involve more flashbacks and scenes that would be like the PT and the movie is already like three days long, so they just had some dialogue from Luke explaining himself. They didn't even show the vision he had, it would have been easy! In interviews Hamill and Johnson basically said "Luke got old", which is the least interesting answer. Personally I'm done with Star Wars entirely because of the end of TLJ. If Rey had taken Kylo's hand and we smash to credits, I would want to see what happens. But they end the movie going "It's the empire vs small group of rebels, again, for the second time! There's more kids who will grow up to use the force! THIS WILL NEVER END, STAR WARS FOR ETERNITY! A THOUSAND YEAR REIGN!" ...and I just want it to be over, I think Broom Kid was supposed to be a "hell yeah" thing, but all I thought was "Oh no, another generation has been infected, please make is stop" and seeing as they will make Star Wars movies as long as they make money, the only way for it to end for me is to just stop watching. So I'm skipping Ep.9 and whatever comes after, I hope people who are still having a good time enjoy it. I realized you don't need to see every film that comes out, no matter how big or important the "conversation" is. I've never seen a single Harry Potter film and my life doesn't feel like it's missing anything, so 
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Nov 27, 2019 23:09
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The first movie I ever saw was Tron. I was 2. The first movie I ever saw in theaters? Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. I was 3.
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Nov 27, 2019 23:09
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TLJ is just bad film, practically from the very first shot of the opening crawl. The First Order reigns, what? The opening 'oh no' bit sucks, and it leads immediately into Poe's 'Yo momma' joke whereupon he effortlessly disarms an entire Star Destroyer. Of course, this is only made possible by the fact that Hux acts like a complete moron. No TIEs are launched until it's too late and the Dreadnaught fires on the abandoned base as opposed to the cruiser that's waiting in orbit. So, this leads to the whole bombing scene which is a mess because nothing has actually been set up. Like, who sortied them all? Poe? If Leia wants to pull them back, how come she only tries talking to Poe? Don't they not have hyperdrives? All Rebel fighters we've seen have hyperdrives and the bombers are supposed to invoke World War 2 strategic bombers, so they probably should, but the film needs this tense 'will they land in time' scene that comes right out of Battlestar Galactica. That's another big issue. Johnson is cribbing from Battlestar Galactica. What's worse is that he's cribbing from 33, one of the best episodes. The conflict between Holdo and Poe is basically an inept version of the conflict between Roslin and Adama. The reason for this is that Poe was originally going to go with Finn to the casino planet, but Rian changed this because 'they felt like the same character.' This is quite obviously a lie on his part, or a reveal that he's stupid as hell, because it feels far more likely that Disney wanted to nix the Poe/Finn shipping memes. So, the whole chase plot, the mutiny, Rose, Holdo... those are all late additions to the script. No wonder they don't really add anything to the film. I haven't even mentioned the inanity of the First Order tracking device. Not only is it weird that Finn and Rose somehow intuit where it is and how it works with no former knowledge that the technology even exists, they then go on to outline that: 1. Snoke's ship is tracking them. 2. You can't attack Snoke's ship because even if you destroy it, the other Destroyers will just turn on their tracking devices. 3. But Snoke's ship is the only one tracking them right now. 4. So, they need to sneak onto Snoke's ship and disable it and flee to hyperspace before anyone realizes. Then, despite being involved in World's Wildest Police Space Chase, they just... hyperspace to another planet without issue. The First Order doesn't even send anyone to follow them. Why didn't the Resistance just flee in small ships then? I mean, that is basically Holdo's plan... Then there's the whole Casino Bight thing where, like, it all falls apart because Rose and Finn parked their ship illegally. And they team up with DJ for no real reason who comes along with them to break into Snoke's ship for no real reason who then betrays them simply to subvert, like, Lando. Oh, and they free the space horses but not the space child slaves. The Luke and Rey stuff is mostly okay. It's clearly the part of the film Johnson was actually interested in. But it's still filled with weirdness. Rey says the First Order will take over the whole galaxy in two weeks - well how does she know that? The opening crawl implies they already have. The ending, maybe a day later, implies it too. The Luke stuff suffers not because he tried to kill Kylo or whatever but because the most important storytelling component of the ST, the fall of Ben Solo and Luke's Jedi Academy, is this vital moment... that's rendered entirely through flashbacks. At this point, it's clear that Episode 7 should've been about that. What's more is that what little stuff TFA established that was interesting is retcon'd by TLJ, including the attack on Luke's Jedi Academy. What's funny is that some comic is coming out that retcons it again. Virtually everything from TFA that might've been interesting is changed between TFA and TLJ. Fans often pick up on this by how Snoke goes from unconcerned with Ren's failure to openly berating him and blasting him with force lightning in the space of like, oh, maybe five minutes. The big flashy Praetorian fight is a mess of messed-up choreography and obvious storytelling changes, such as Rey getting stabbed in the back but it edited in post. There's so much stuff about this film that was changed during development. Rey getting stabbed, the opening 'oh no' shot, Holdo and Rose existing... And Kylo Ren, the one interesting character the ST has, the one character the film has developed in something of an interesting fashion as someone who woke up to find Luke's laser sword at his throat... Well, Luke's big moment is to appear as a hologram, mock him (remember, Luke tried to kill him and is supposed to be remorseful about it), and then basically trolls him. And then Luke dies. And the Resistance is basically dead, but that's okay because Leia says they have everything they need. Like the Jedi texts, which Yoda implied were useless old books that weren't necessary to restoring the Jedi Order. So, he burnt the tree down. But, psych, Rey actually took them... off-screen at some point. Why? Who knows. It's just a weird mess from start to finish.
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Nov 27, 2019 23:11
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First Order reigns yet somehow they can't send for reinforcements and have them jump from hyperspace in front of the resistance fleet. The sub hyperspace chase makes no sense in the Star Wars universe, especially when they show you can just leave the chase and come back.
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Nov 27, 2019 23:21
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