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Scikar posted:It sounds like several of the public got stabbed in the process though. Like yeah the police lie about this kind of event a lot and there's plenty of fash around who will use this to try to justify more guns everywhere which we should absolutely resist. It would have been better to arrest him instead if possible (even the most crazed military fetishist ought to realise that we can find out a lot more about how this happened and if the guy was working with anyone else if he can be questioned). But it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for someone who stabbed a bunch of people to end up dead at the end of it? gonna be interesting to see how you resist giving the police more power to shoot people with "yeah that guy definitely deserved it"
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Nov 29, 2019 18:23
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willie_dee posted:From everything I’ve ever read in regards to this, it simply does not work sadly and is pure fantasy bought about by Hollywood movies depreciation of what shooting someone actually looks like. I get the impression that you don't do much reading past a morning glance at The Sun. Actually, maybe The Star is more your pace? (If that's too subtle I'm saying you're a thick oval office, hope that helps)
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Nov 29, 2019 18:23
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forkboy84 posted:I get the impression that you don't do much reading past a morning glance at The Sun. Actually, maybe The Star is more your pace? just a single page of the Sun is my guess
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Nov 29, 2019 18:24
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I wonder what it is about police violence that brings all the weird fash apologist cunts to the thread to wank themselves into pillars of salt over poo poo-tier hypotheticals like "but what if the guy on the bridge was that one x-man whose mutant power was exploding? The manly, virulent police officer would absolutely have to spurt thick, forceful justice from their proud, stiff weapon in order to keep us safe in that case  ".Must just be a weird coincidence I guess.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:25
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Scikar posted:It sounds like several of the public got stabbed in the process though. Like yeah the police lie about this kind of event a lot and there's plenty of fash around who will use this to try to justify more guns everywhere which we should absolutely resist. It would have been better to arrest him instead if possible (even the most crazed military fetishist ought to realise that we can find out a lot more about how this happened and if the guy was working with anyone else if he can be questioned). But it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for someone who stabbed a bunch of people to end up dead at the end of it? I will continue to argue against the idea that them ending up dead at the end of it is either a desirable or inevitable outcome. Which is what people are arguing. It is most certainly not desirable and it is only inevitable if people continue to promote the idea that it's the only possible outcome because anything else is terrorist sympathising. I do not want to live in a society that continues to produce people who go on murder sprees and get shot at the end of it and we aren't allowed to question why or suggest alternative solutions, because we can see a much more advanced form of that trend in the US.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:26
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gonna go to c-spam until things cool down in here.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:26
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Flayer posted:I don't want to see anyone die but if you have a person who wants to go out and murder random innocent people for no reason I don't see how you can have any sympathy for them when they get killed during that murderous action. We had a guy like that in the headlines last month who turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic having a breakdown. Social care breaking down means that Judge Dredd policing logic will see a fair number of suffering, unwell people getting executed.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:27
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Random Integer posted:Its possible to train your police force to shoot to disable and has the added benefit that the cops are significantly less likely to put a bullet into an innocent bystander. Shooting to disable is significantly *more* likely to put a bullet into an innocent bystander. Even if they're loving Robocop and perfectly hit their target there's much less meat to stop the bullet in the arm or leg than there is in a torso, and if the bullet isn't stopped it's going to carry on until it is.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:27
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Julio Cruz posted:shooting him with a taser seems to be a decent option I don't know enough to be sure about this, but actually I really don't think a taser is good for a bomb vest. You can't detonate C4 with bullets but you definitely can with electricity. This actually makes me question the point of tasers at all - they are sold to the public as an alternative to guns, but in any situation where the police have a choice they always choose the guns anyway. The only time we seem to see tasers get used is when the police are using excessive force against drunk or mentally ill people and they could never justify using a gun.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:27
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Like, if members of the public have been grappling with the guy extensively before you arrive and you see this on approach it's reasonable to assume he'd have blow himself up already if he'd planned to do so. You want it on your head to make that assumption when it turns out he was being restrained from reaching the detonator or it was on a timer of some kind and then it goes off whilst everyone’s restraining him? I wouldn’t want to make that call, nor would I.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:28
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Darth Walrus posted:We had a guy like that in the headlines last month who turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic having a breakdown. Social care breaking down means that Judge Dredd policing logic will see a fair number of suffering, unwell people getting executed. Like in the US where several mentally ill (and coincidentally black) people were shot without even attempting to restrain them. The UK doesn't need armed police ffs
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Nov 29, 2019 18:28
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Braggart posted:Yes it would be easy for you to try, but you would regret it. Just quoting this to say you're a good dude Braggart 
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Nov 29, 2019 18:29
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Scikar posted:I don't know enough to be sure about this, but actually I really don't think a taser is good for a bomb vest. You can't detonate C4 with bullets but you definitely can with electricity. This actually makes me question the point of tasers at all - they are sold to the public as an alternative to guns, but in any situation where the police have a choice they always choose the guns anyway. The only time we seem to see tasers get used is when the police are using excessive force against drunk or mentally ill people and they could never justify using a gun. IIRC the police first started being issued with tasers before they ever got given guns to play with fair point about tasers and bomb vests but there are other non-lethal options available - CS gas or beanbag rounds or even just hitting the guy with your big stick - as alternatives to just shooting him
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Nov 29, 2019 18:29
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willie_dee posted:You want it on your head to make that assumption when it turns out he was being restrained from reaching the detonator or it was on a timer of some kind and then it goes off whilst everyone’s restraining him? If the Public jump in before Police respond then how does him having a detonator change if Police have guns
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Nov 29, 2019 18:29
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Scikar posted:It sounds like several of the public got stabbed in the process though. Like yeah the police lie about this kind of event a lot and there's plenty of fash around who will use this to try to justify more guns everywhere which we should absolutely resist. It would have been better to arrest him instead if possible (even the most crazed military fetishist ought to realise that we can find out a lot more about how this happened and if the guy was working with anyone else if he can be questioned). But it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for someone who stabbed a bunch of people to end up dead at the end of it? I have seen this poo poo too often to ever give the polis the benefit of the doubt.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:31
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Scikar posted:I don't know enough to be sure about this, but actually I really don't think a taser is good for a bomb vest. You can't detonate C4 with bullets but you definitely can with electricity. This actually makes me question the point of tasers at all - they are sold to the public as an alternative to guns, but in any situation where the police have a choice they always choose the guns anyway. The only time we seem to see tasers get used is when the police are using excessive force against drunk or mentally ill people and they could never justify using a gun. I think the idea is 'non-lethally incapacitate someone without getting into stabbing distance'. Which is quite useful if you don't like being stabbed (or don't have confidence that you can prevent other people from being stabbed). There's definitely a use out there for ranged weaponry that's unlikely to kill someone - it's just a matter of weighing up how unlikely to kill someone it actually is.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:31
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TheRat posted:If you can't find a better reason (there are many), how about not turning him into a martyr? I’d of much much rather he not be killed, the killing of anyone is a sad thing. I just don’t think there’s a way around not killing someone in a bomb vest who has already tried stabbing people.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:31
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CyberPingu posted:Like in the US where several mentally ill (and coincidentally black) people were shot without even attempting to restrain them. Us having hardly any armed coppers is one of the main redeeming features of British policing. Ending up like America on that front is one of the worst things that could happen.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:31
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willie_dee posted:I’d of much much rather he not be killed, the killing of anyone is a sad thing. I just don’t think there’s a way around not killing someone in a bomb vest who has already tried stabbing people. You could try talking him down before you pull the trigger, just a thought. Though I guess a thought is more the Met give before pulling the trigger.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:33
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Scikar posted:I don't know enough to be sure about this, but actually I really don't think a taser is good for a bomb vest. You can't detonate C4 with bullets but you definitely can with electricity. This actually makes me question the point of tasers at all - they are sold to the public as an alternative to guns, but in any situation where the police have a choice they always choose the guns anyway. The only time we seem to see tasers get used is when the police are using excessive force against drunk or mentally ill people and they could never justify using a gun. Tasers in the Met are only permitted to be used by firearms officers, and only in situations where they would be permitted to shoot, which is reasonable. The problem with Tasers in the US (and some UK forces) is they're not treated in this way, and are basically used as magic arrest wands like you say against people who aren't actually an immediate threat but who Plod don't fancy actually putting hands on.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:33
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mfcrocker posted:Us having hardly any armed coppers is one of the main redeeming features of British policing. Ending up like America on that front is one of the worst things that could happen. Yep. Even though I've done gently caress all wrong, when I'm in London and see police with guns at train stations it makes me really nervous. Not that I'm going to get shot for doing something wrong, that I'm going to get shot by them trying to apprehend someone else. Also a few pages back. But Charles De Menez' was shot 6 loving times in the head after being pinned down. That was a loving execution.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:33
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troubling to me that terrorists have these bomb vests, and our police do not. can we really allow them to have this advantage?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:33
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Julio Cruz posted:gonna be interesting to see how you resist giving the police more power to shoot people with "yeah that guy definitely deserved it" I don't accept the slippery slope argument when I'm arguing about raising taxes and I'm not really going to accept it here either. I explicitly said we need to resist the militarisation of the police. Julio Cruz posted:IIRC the police first started being issued with tasers before they ever got given guns to play with I would have thought we have had armed police a lot longer than tasers have existed. The biggest difference I'm aware of is that only specific armed response units can have guns, but any standard copper can carry a taser if they're trained? e: clarified above, thanks. I was assuming the rules were the same across all forces. That would definitely be a point that we ought to push back on in my opinion, all the police should be treating tasers like guns.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:34
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CyberPingu posted:If the Public jump in before Police respond then how does him having a detonator change if Police have guns Because the only way the guarantee he doesn’t get free enough to detonate is a shot to the head and an immediate evacuation of the area to wait for the bomb squad to come and diffuse.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:34
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Quotey posted:troubling to me that terrorists have these bomb vests, and our police do not. can we really allow them to have this advantage? Ah, finally a good use for the police. willie_dee posted:Because the only way the guarantee he doesn’t get free enough to detonate is a shot to the head and an immediate evacuation of the area to wait for the bomb squad to come and diffuse. And then when it turns out the only vest he was wearing was one his granny knitted for him for Christmas?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:34
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willie_dee posted:Because the only way the guarantee he doesn’t get free enough to detonate is a shot to the head and an immediate evacuation of the area to wait for the bomb squad to come and diffuse. Did you even read my post. So what you are saying is the Police should fire at someones head while he is being restrained by pedestrians. good loving God you are dumb
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Nov 29, 2019 18:35
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CyberPingu posted:Did you even read my post. The public have gone hands on and are fighting with him, if he’s got a detonator he could be reaching for it. The police having guns can use said guns to shoot him in the head preventing any risk to the public who are fighting with him. Or am I completely not understanding your post?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:37
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XMNN posted:terrorists are bad, police are bad, questioning whether shooting someone was necessary/justified is good (even if it turns out that it was)
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Nov 29, 2019 18:38
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CyberPingu posted:So what you are saying is the Police should fire at someones head while he is being restrained by pedestrians. good loving God you are dumb No they do what they did, clear the public and shoot him before he can continue.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:38
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Julio Cruz posted:IIRC the police first started being issued with tasers before they ever got given guns to play with Julio Cruz posted:fair point about tasers and bomb vests but there are other non-lethal options available - CS gas or beanbag rounds or even just hitting the guy with your big stick - as alternatives to just shooting him CS gas is as likely to incapacitate the user as the person being used on. Beanbag rounds are almost as lethal as shotgun rounds (it's notable that *no* UK police force equips them, even the PSNI who like to spray round baton rounds like confetti), and truncheons/batons require you to be within stabbing range of the person you're taking on.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:39
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Hey to break up terrorist chat, and to shed some light on the antisemitism issue in labour being abused by bad actors for political gain, the tories today dedicated a statue to Nancy Astor, a women who was not only an appeaser to the nazis in the run up to world war 2, but is also a huge antisemite to the point that she’s on record as an MP approving of Hitler and The nazi party because they’d solve the worlds two greatest problems: Jews and socialism. Truely a women worthy of having the government dedicate a statue to her, rather than her bones being chucked in a flaming dumpster.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:40
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Deketh posted:Just quoting this to say you're a good dude Braggart  Thank you, you seem cool and good yourself
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Nov 29, 2019 18:40
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goddamnedtwisto posted:UK police were first equipped with firearms while Faraday was still pissing about with bits of copper and vinegar, so that seems unlikely. Pointing out that non lethal options are not reliable makes you fash according to this thread, just a heads up. Some posters even think that police officers should sacrifice their lives so criminals don’t get hurt when caught committing crimes.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:40
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willie_dee posted:Some posters even think that police officers should sacrifice their lives so criminals don’t get hurt when caught committing crimes. What do you think the causes of crime are?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:42
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Drone_Fragger posted:Hey to break up terrorist chat, and to shed some light on the antisemitism issue in labour being abused by bad actors for political gain, the tories today dedicated a statue to Nancy Astor, a women who was not only an appeaser to the nazis in the run up to world war 2, but is also a huge antisemite to the point that she’s on record as an MP approving of Hitler and The nazi party because they’d solve the worlds two greatest problems: Jews and socialism. Truely a women worthy of having the government dedicate a statue to her, rather than her bones being chucked in a flaming dumpster. Just seen this on twitter via Ash Sarkar. Why was she even being statued up on the first place?! https://twitter.com/ayocaesar/status/1200336430028996609?s=21 Needs tearing down just like all of Colstons stuff in Bristol.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:42
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I don't think suggesting that the police shooting a man on video that tried to take a hostage after getting dogpiled by members of the public for brandishing knives and a suicide vest after jackknifing a lorry across a bridge in a situation that's still unfolding is exactly the same as a cop entering the wrong apartment and killing the homeowner, and suggesting they're not the same doesn't really make that person a cop loving bootlicker.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:43
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OwlFancier posted:What do you think the causes of crime are? Poverty and mental health mostly I think.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:43
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Szmitten posted:I don't think suggesting that the police shooting a man on video that tried to take a hostage after getting dogpiled by members of the public for brandishing knives and a suicide vest after jackknifing a lorry across a bridge in a situation that's still unfolding is exactly the same as a cop entering the wrong apartment and killing the homeowner, and suggesting they're not the same doesn't really make that person a cop loving bootlicker. Thanks for this, at least I know I’m not completely insane for thinking so if at least one other person who posts here can tell the difference between the two.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:45
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It seems like all we know for sure so far is that the police shot someone dead after a fight, and some other people were stabbed. I haven't seen any of the reports say for sure that they were stabbed by the dead man - it's implied but the ones I've read have been quite careful not to make a direct connection because they don't know. All the stuff about a suicide vest, fake or not, seems to be unconfirmed too. In this situation, I think it's pretty OK to turn a somewhat critical eye at the police, given that they are the ones who killed a person, and as a group have a pretty solid track record of killing other innocent people. Once we know more maybe it'll turn out the dead guy was indeed trying to murder people and the police acted justifiably and so on. But for now I'd rather aim suspicion at the people who killed somebody, rather than the guy who's lying dead.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:45
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willie_dee posted:Poverty and mental health mostly I think. And do you think justice should be rehabilitative or punitive?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:45
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