willie_dee posted:Poverty and mental health mostly I think. Holy poo poo are you writing the Tory Manifesto.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:47
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willie_dee posted:Pointing out that non lethal options are not reliable makes you fash according to this thread, just a heads up. Don't try and bond with me you gently caress, your first contribution to this discussion was how you'd go all Super Saiyan and murder the gently caress out of an terrorists near you, and I've a long enough memory to remember you offering to fight any poster in the LF UKMT who disagreed with you.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:48
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willie_dee posted:Just seen this on twitter via Ash Sarkar. Why was she even being statued up on the first place?! The fact they even thought it was acceptable is baffling, sure she was the first women MP but she literally supported hitler.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:50
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Scikar posted:I don't accept the slippery slope argument when I'm arguing about raising taxes and I'm not really going to accept it here either. I explicitly said we need to resist the militarisation of the police. IMO the best way to resist militarisation of the police is to reduce shootings, not increase them, but of course you're welcome to disagree
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Nov 29, 2019 18:50
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big scary monsters posted:It seems like all we know for sure so far is that the police shot someone dead after a fight, and some other people were stabbed. I haven't seen any of the reports say for sure that they were stabbed by the dead man - it's implied but the ones I've read have been quite careful not to make a direct connection because they don't know. All the stuff about a suicide vest, fake or not, seems to be unconfirmed too. In this situation, I think it's pretty OK to turn a somewhat critical eye at the police, given that they are the ones who killed a person, and as a group have a pretty solid track record of killing other innocent people. Once we know more maybe it'll turn out the dead guy was indeed trying to murder people and the police acted justifiably and so on. But for now I'd rather aim suspicion at the people who killed somebody, rather than the guy who's lying dead. there's a photo of his corpse wearing a belt which looks like a bomb and a knife nearby
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Nov 29, 2019 18:50
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OwlFancier posted:And do you think justice should be rehabilitative or punitive? Rehabilitation is far far more important that punishment. CyberPingu posted:Holy poo poo are you writing the Tory Manifesto. Not that I’ve read it but I would of thought the Tory manifesto would say it’s because they are work shy scum and need punishment as motivation to work, arbecht mein frei style. Rather than poverty because of the gross inequalities in society and lack of social services that need to be addressed to end it.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:51
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willie_dee posted:Just seen this on twitter via Ash Sarkar. Why was she even being statued up on the first place?! A Jewish friend made a comment that she would knock it down so dogs could piss on it, hopefully plymouth delivers
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Nov 29, 2019 18:51
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Drone_Fragger posted:The fact they even thought it was acceptable is baffling, sure she was the first women MP but she literally supported hitler. Someone posted that she wasn't even that, the first woman to be elected MP didn't take her seat due to being an irish nationalist.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:51
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OwlFancier posted:Someone posted that she wasn't even that, the first woman to be elected MP didn't take her seat due to being an irish nationalist. Constance Markievicz She stood against poverty and had Labour values, but she isn't an important part of British history because that would require acknowledging Ireland.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:53
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OwlFancier posted:Someone posted that she wasn't even that, the first woman to be elected MP didn't take her seat due to being an irish nationalist. A socialist member of Sinn Fein I believe, so *checks watch* her statue should be along any day now *peers down both ends of empty street*
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Nov 29, 2019 18:53
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Don't try and bond with me you gently caress, your first contribution to this discussion was how you'd go all Super Saiyan and murder the gently caress out of an terrorists near you, and I've a long enough memory to remember you offering to fight any poster in the LF UKMT who disagreed with you.  big scary monsters posted:But for now I'd rather aim suspicion at the people who killed somebody, rather than the guy who's lying dead.  Even if we entirely disregard the Met's history of being total shits 100% of the time, I don't think it's even slightly unreasonable to scrutinise police actions in the aftermath of an incident like this. If they turn out to have been entirely justified then that's great but under no circumstances should the public's initial reaction be "are brave lads are beyond reproach".
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Nov 29, 2019 18:54
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willie_dee posted:Rehabilitation is far far more important that punishment. So if you think that crime is a product of being failed by society, and you don't think we should be punishing people routinely, it seems quite weird to add "unless they hurt a cop in which case gently caress em" to that. If the role of the police isn't just to be the state's hired execution squad then they, as the executive arm of the justice system, have a duty to facilitate the rehabilitation of people who you understand are products of societal failings. Yes, up to and including risking their own welfare in the process.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:54
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I'd support a statue of Markievicz kicking Astor's rear end.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:54
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OwlFancier posted:So if you think that crime is a product of being failed by society, and you don't think we should be punishing people routinely, it seems quite weird to add "unless they hurt a cop in which case gently caress em" to that. Own welfare maybe, throw in a knife and I’m not asking police officers to risk their own lives, for as much as we hate to admit it, police officers are humans in society too.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:56
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willie_dee posted:Own welfare maybe, throw in a knife and I’m not asking police officers to risk their own lives, for as much as we hate to admit it, police officers are humans in society too. Police officers are not people who have been victimized by society, they are, currently, people who victimize others in society. They are afforded power and prestige, they have an obligation to everyone else, not us to them. If we are to respect them they must be worthy of that respect, if they demand respect while brutalizing others, they aren't laudable, they're worse than the criminals.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:57
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Julio Cruz posted:IMO the best way to resist militarisation of the police is to reduce shootings, not increase them, but of course you're welcome to disagree If you want to argue with someone who thinks there should be more killing then by all means do so, but I'd appreciate it if you quote them instead of me when you do that.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:57
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willie_dee posted:Own welfare maybe, throw in a knife and I’m not asking police officers to risk their own lives, for as much as we hate to admit it, police officers are humans in society too. So should all cops be given guns and stab-proof vets then, to ensure they can protect themselves from someone with a knife?
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Nov 29, 2019 18:59
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OwlFancier posted:Police officers are not people who have been victimized by society, they are, currently, people who victimize others in society. They are afforded power and prestige, they have an obligation to everyone else, not us to them. So you are arguing that a police officer should be willing to die to restrain an offender without hurting them who is using lethal force to not be arrested whilst committing a crime? Astoundingly hot take there.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:59
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Bundy posted:A socialist member of Sinn Fein I believe, so *checks watch* her statue should be along any day now *peers down both ends of empty street* She didn't take her seat so we should commission a statue of an empty chair. Nah, what I actually think is that we should melt down the statue of the Nazi sympathiser and recast it as Constance Markievicz.
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Nov 29, 2019 18:59
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Scikar posted:If you want to argue with someone who thinks there should be more killing then by all means do so, but I'd appreciate it if you quote them instead of me when you do that. oh OK, so Scikar posted:But it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for someone who stabbed a bunch of people to end up dead at the end of it? is arguing for fewer killings by police, gotcha
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Nov 29, 2019 19:01
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unwantedplatypus posted:So should all cops be given guns and stab-proof vets then, to ensure they can protect themselves from someone with a knife? Stab proof vests yes, all given guns? gently caress no. Luckily knives are not that prolific in day to day policing so are current armed response officers are sufficient (or not, the police need far far more funding like all are public services, although I’d probably go police last if I was giving out more funding)
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Nov 29, 2019 19:01
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What's the effective radius of the average homemade bomb vest? If the civilians involved were a decent distance away (and rapidly retreating further) surely the immediate threat was diffused? Police could have then kept a wide perimiter and started talking instead of going straight for the head shot. Maybe, idk.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:02
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OwlFancier posted:So if you think that crime is a product of being failed by society, and you don't think we should be punishing people routinely, it seems quite weird to add "unless they hurt a cop in which case gently caress em" to that. Making it instant death to injure a cop just means that people will be afraid to disobey the police in any regard, even if the police are acting illegally. Which is of course what the cops want.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:02
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willie_dee posted:So you are arguing that a police officer should be willing to die to restrain an offender without hurting them who is using lethal force to not be arrested whilst committing a crime? Astoundingly hot take there. Yes? They should have all the equipment and training and numbers we can give them to facilitate that, but yes, ultimately they have a duty to put themselves at risk to protect people who have been failed by society, both criminals and their victims. Anything else is inconsistent with the ideas that the police are a service, that they're laudable, that criminals have a right to rehabilitation, or that crime is a social problem. Of course I don't believe any of that is actually true in practice but if you're going to pretend like it is... The fire service puts their lives at risk to protect people from fire, I don't particularly see why the cops should be any different.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:02
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hemale in pain posted:there's a photo of his corpse wearing a belt which looks like a bomb and a knife nearby Ah, you must have taken one of those Bellingcat citizen journalist courses.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:04
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Braggart posted:Making it instant death to injure a cop just means that people will be afraid to disobey the police in any regard, even if the police are acting illegally. Which is of course what the cops want. You are conflating stab with injure. There is a world of grey. Punching a cop in the face is not the same as attempting to stab one.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:04
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If the cops can only use guns lethally then they shouldn't have guns. Because their proven track record of using lethal force on innocent/unarmed people demonstrates they cant be trusted with it.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:05
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Random Integer posted:If the cops can only use guns lethally then they shouldn't have guns. Because their proven track record of using lethal force on innocent/unarmed people demonstrates they cant be trusted with it. The problem is is that there is no way to accurately make sure they don't use them lethally
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Nov 29, 2019 19:07
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willie_dee posted:So you are arguing that a police officer should be willing to die to restrain an offender without hurting them who is using lethal force to not be arrested whilst committing a crime? Astoundingly hot take there. Not "not hurting them", not killing them in cold blood. Randos from the general public literally were willing to do that, and did. Doesn't seem unreasonable to at least hold police up to an equal standard. e: also any fantasy scenarios about how shooting the attacker might be justified when they're still free, armed and swinging at people no longer apply once they've been disarmed and are being held down.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:07
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willie_dee posted:You are conflating stab with injure. There is a world of grey. Punching a cop in the face is not the same as attempting to stab one. Alright, if you punch a cop then maybe they won't kill you. But do you think the response will be proportional? Or do you think the cop and their mates will take the opportunity to get some licks in somewhere away from cameras? And do you think that one reason they do this might be because it intimidates others who hear about it, whether specifically or as a general trend?
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Nov 29, 2019 19:07
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OwlFancier posted:Yes? They should have all the equipment and training and numbers we can give them to facilitate that, but yes, ultimately they have a duty to put themselves at risk to protect people who have been failed by society, both criminals and their victims. I see your point and I want to thank you for having the discussion rather than just calling me fash. We do not ask Firemen to die, they put their lives at risk but within reason. I do not think it is reasonable to ask a police officer to risk getting stabbed to protect a criminal. The criminal should be given ample opportunity to surrender but if they insist on putting the officer in a kill or be killed situation then the criminals the one making that decision and they are sacrificing their own life.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:08
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Bundy posted:A socialist member of Sinn Fein I believe, so *checks watch* her statue should be along any day now *peers down both ends of empty street* quote:Markievicz supervised the setting-up of barricades on Easter Monday and was in the middle of the fighting all around Stephen's Green, wounding a British army sniper.[24] Trenches were dug in the Green, sheltered by the front gate; however, after British machine gun and rifle fire from the rooftops of tall buildings on the north side of the Green including the Shelbourne Hotel, the Citizen Army troops withdrew to the Royal College of Surgeons on the west side of the Green. (yes I know she was actually with the ICA, don’t @ me)
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Nov 29, 2019 19:09
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Guavanaut posted:I'd support a statue of Markievicz kicking Astor's rear end. Just turn up one night and braze a brass copy of mein kampf and swastikas all over it, at least then it would be historically accurate.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:09
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Julio Cruz posted:oh OK, so Is it always, categorically, 100% wrong for the police to kill anyone? I genuinely don't know how to answer that. My gut tells me that if we had no armed police at all they would pretty obviously kill fewer people and that's good. But it also tells me that we would inevitably see the army deployed a lot more instead, and my suspicion is you'd end up with more dead people if that was the case. So OK, disband the army as well, personally I'm OK with that. But if I want it to actually happen I need to be able to persuade others, and I honestly don't know how I could do that. I'm pretty sure if I tried I would end up with them ignoring me on a lot more things besides policing. So that's why I used a question mark in the quote above. It doesn't seem automatically wrong to me, even though it's certainly bad. So what makes it wrong, and how do we stop it happening next time?
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Nov 29, 2019 19:09
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Braggart posted:Alright, if you punch a cop then maybe they won't kill you. But do you think the response will be proportional? Or do you think the cop and their mates will take the opportunity to get some licks in somewhere away from cameras? And do you think that one reason they do this might be because it intimidates others who hear about it, whether specifically or as a general trend? That’s a very different discussion and I am in full agreement that disproportionately hurting someone is wrong.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:10
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sebzilla posted:What's the effective radius of the average homemade bomb vest? If the civilians involved were a decent distance away (and rapidly retreating further) surely the immediate threat was diffused? Police could have then kept a wide perimiter and started talking instead of going straight for the head shot. Maybe, idk. Lethal is like within a few feet in an open area, because the blast is going to spread out as a sphere, enclosed area like a bus or train is a different matter. But it can still be hazardous far beyond that, if there's flying shrapnel. Of course, like the guy across the river from the last bridge attack found out, so can ranged attacks on people with presumed bomb vests. Drone_Fragger posted:Just turn up one night and braze a brass copy of mein kampf and swastikas all over it, at least then it would be historically accurate. Or "Toilet"
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Nov 29, 2019 19:11
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Obviously all lethal force must be controlled by the one person that can be trusted with it - me
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Nov 29, 2019 19:15
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willie_dee posted:I am in full agreement that disproportionately hurting someone is wrong.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:15
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willie_dee posted:Stab proof vests yes, all given guns? gently caress no. Luckily knives are not that prolific in day to day policing so are current armed response officers are sufficient (or not, the police need far far more funding like all are public services, although I’d probably go police last if I was giving out more funding) I... actually agree with that I guess. I suppose right now we have a fundamental problem that police institutions in most countries are fundamentally focused on protecting the government and capital rather than on safely apprehending people breaking the law or hurting others and, failing that, protecting everyone else. So we have this situation where we're essentially debating how dangerous to make group A so that they'll protect us from group B, without making them a danger to normal people; and the answer is they are an institutional danger, such that even totally disarmed the presence of a police force as structured today would be dangerous to people (even if only in the theoretical sense). So far there's a lot of grey area but no obvious wrongdoing by the police, but taken in context with other incidents (and I may be projecting as a yank), it becomes difficult to trust the police on pretty much anything. Basically, ACAB but they're not bad literally all the time; replace cops with something better
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Nov 29, 2019 19:17
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Pilchenstein posted:And yet your original position was "knife crime should be met with summary execution". Someone trying to kill someone, not just knife crime... When confronting at range with time and safety permitting, allowance to deescalate is proportionate.
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Nov 29, 2019 19:17
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