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Ok is Pod Save America having right now some sort of marketing push in Europe? I've had at least several publications here do a "Catch-all of podcasts" and the only US "Essential" one being talked about is theirs. I don't mean like they're recommended along with let's say any of the McElroy ones or whatever. I mean on the sense its the only one being recommended that's US based. It's bizarre because... I can go to more fancy magazine places and see Amber published there, but no peep about every other single pod, left or right or "apolitical".
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Nov 30, 2019 14:38
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Doc Hawkins posted:new underculture is mostly an argument between alan moore and grant morrison and it gets ugly. i knew those guys weren't friends but behind closed doors they really go at it. Because they're both fuckin weird assholes who cares
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Nov 30, 2019 14:56
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Oh that's adomians podcast I somehow care even less
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Nov 30, 2019 15:00
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Oh that's adomians podcast aw, c'mon, it's fun 
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Nov 30, 2019 15:48
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Larry Parrish posted:it's easy to see radicals desperately wanting bernie to win because if we cant even elect a tepid socdem, there really is no choice but armed revolt. unsurprisingly despite being acknowledged as a possibility, nobody wants to actually do this Most people have no idea how to fight irregular warfare and a whole lot of people would die, so I get the reluctance. Anyone who unironically lusts for that possibility is a gigantic idiot imo
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Nov 30, 2019 17:06
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Dreylad posted:Most people have no idea how to fight irregular warfare and a whole lot of people would die, so I get the reluctance. Anyone who unironically lusts for that possibility is a gigantic idiot imo I also don't see how any sort of revolution against the US state would be anything but certain failure at this time, or any time in the forseeable future.
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Nov 30, 2019 17:13
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TheBalor posted:I also don't see how any sort of revolution against the US state would be anything but certain failure at this time, or any time in the forseeable future. If it were to succeed it would take decades of irregular warfare and millions of people dying, so yeah, not going to happen.
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Nov 30, 2019 17:14
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i mean its either try or just kill yourself, you know? so again, pretty easy to see how people get invested in bernie when the alternative is 'work till you die or get sick of living'
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Nov 30, 2019 17:16
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for sure, I've seen a bunch of times when someone comes up to bernie on mic and says "either you win or me and/or my family dies"
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Nov 30, 2019 17:18
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Dreylad posted:Most people have no idea how to fight irregular warfare and a whole lot of people would die, so I get the reluctance. Anyone who unironically lusts for that possibility is a gigantic idiot imo Yeah the whole point of the left is it isn’t a goddamn death cult that lusts for violence
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Nov 30, 2019 17:56
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Serious question, if revolution is off the table then what's the point of any of this?
MizPiz has issued a correction as of 18:34 on Nov 30, 2019 |
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Nov 30, 2019 18:32
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MizPiz posted:Serious question, if revolution is off the table then what's the point of any of this? Im here for the posts.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:36
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Bip Roberts posted:Im here for the posts. I mean in doing any sort of organizing or political actions. We all know that anything less than the complete upending of the western capitalist system is going to lead to failure and we also know that the people who directly benefit from it aren't going to give it up without a fight. So why are we pretending to be more than tepid reformers?
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Nov 30, 2019 18:45
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Hegel remarks somewhere[*] that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. Caussidière for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851[66] for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle. And the same caricature occurs in the circumstances of the second edition of the Eighteenth Brumaire. Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language. Thus Luther put on the mask of the Apostle Paul, the Revolution of 1789-1814 draped itself alternately in the guise of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, and the Revolution of 1848 knew nothing better to do than to parody, now 1789, now the revolutionary tradition of 1793-95. In like manner, the beginner who has learned a new language always translates it back into his mother tongue, but he assimilates the spirit of the new language and expresses himself freely in it only when he moves in it without recalling the old and when he forgets his native tongue. When we think about this conjuring up of the dead of world history, a salient difference reveals itself. Camille Desmoulins, Danton, Robespierre, St. Just, Napoleon, the heroes as well as the parties and the masses of the old French Revolution, performed the task of their time – that of unchaining and establishing modern bourgeois society – in Roman costumes and with Roman phrases. The first one destroyed the feudal foundation and cut off the feudal heads that had grown on it. The other created inside France the only conditions under which free competition could be developed, parceled-out land properly used, and the unfettered productive power of the nation employed; and beyond the French borders it swept away feudal institutions everywhere, to provide, as far as necessary, bourgeois society in France with an appropriate up-to-date environment on the European continent. Once the new social formation was established, the antediluvian colossi disappeared and with them also the resurrected Romanism – the Brutuses, the Gracchi, the publicolas, the tribunes, the senators, and Caesar himself. Bourgeois society in its sober reality bred its own true interpreters and spokesmen in the Says, Cousins, Royer-Collards, Benjamin Constants, and Guizots; its real military leaders sat behind the office desk and the hog-headed Louis XVIII was its political chief. Entirely absorbed in the production of wealth and in peaceful competitive struggle, it no longer remembered that the ghosts of the Roman period had watched over its cradle. But unheroic though bourgeois society is, it nevertheless needed heroism, sacrifice, terror, civil war, and national wars to bring it into being. And in the austere classical traditions of the Roman Republic the bourgeois gladiators found the ideals and the art forms, the self-deceptions, that they needed to conceal from themselves the bourgeois-limited content of their struggles and to keep their passion on the high plane of great historic tragedy. Similarly, at another stage of development a century earlier, Cromwell and the English people had borrowed from the Old Testament the speech, emotions, and illusions for their bourgeois revolution. When the real goal had been achieved and the bourgeois transformation of English society had been accomplished, Locke supplanted Habakkuk. Thus the awakening of the dead in those revolutions served the purpose of glorifying the new struggles, not of parodying the old; of magnifying the given task in the imagination, not recoiling from its solution in reality; of finding once more the spirit of revolution, not making its ghost walk again. From 1848 to 1851, only the ghost of the old revolution circulated - from Marrast, the républicain en gants jaunes [Republican in yellow gloves], who disguised himself as old Bailly, down to the adventurer who hides his trivial and repulsive features behind the iron death mask of Napoleon. A whole nation, which thought it had acquired an accelerated power of motion by means of a revolution, suddenly finds itself set back into a defunct epoch, and to remove any doubt about the relapse, the old dates arise again – the old chronology, the old names, the old edicts, which had long since become a subject of antiquarian scholarship, and the old minions of the law who had seemed long dead. The nation feels like the mad Englishman in Bedlam [1] who thinks he is living in the time of the old Pharaohs and daily bewails the hard labor he must perform in the Ethiopian gold mines, immured in this subterranean prison, a pale lamp fastened to his head, the overseer of the slaves behind him with a long whip, and at the exits a confused welter of barbarian war slaves who understand neither the forced laborers nor each other, since they speak no common language. “And all this,” sighs the mad Englishman, “is expected of me, a freeborn Briton, in order to make gold for the Pharaohs.” “In order to pay the debts of the Bonaparte family,” sighs the French nation. The Englishman, so long as he was not in his right mind, could not get rid of his idée fixé of mining gold. The French, so long as they were engaged in revolution, could not get rid of the memory of Napoleon, as the election of December 10 [1848, when Louis Bonaparte was elected President of the French Republic by plebiscite.] was proved. They longed to return from the perils of revolution to the fleshpots of Egypt [2], and December 2, 1851 [The date of the coup d’état by Louis Bonaparte], was the answer. Now they have not only a caricature of the old Napoleon, but the old Napoleon himself, caricatured as he would have to be in the middle of the nineteenth century.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:57
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MizPiz posted:I mean in doing any sort of organizing or political actions. We all know that anything less than the complete upending of the western capitalist system is going to lead to failure and we also know that the people who directly benefit from it aren't going to give it up without a fight. So why are we pretending to be more than tepid reformers? What, specifically, are you asking us to do? Stockpile arms? Draw up a list of targets and demands? Form cadres and enlist to surreptitiously gain military training? I'm not saying revolution is completely off the table no matter what, but it's plainly true right now that the US left is in no position seek anything but reform. The US military and security apparatus would easily subvert and crush any attempt, and use it as pretext for even more left-wing repression than it already does. Speaking frankly, even the "decades of guerilla war and millions dead" is *incredibly* optimistic. Any theoretical left-wing uprising in the USA would be a day or two of pathetic shootouts, followed by mass roundups, imprisonments, deportations, and executions. TheBalor has issued a correction as of 19:18 on Nov 30, 2019 |
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Nov 30, 2019 19:16
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MizPiz posted:Serious question, if revolution is off the table then what's the point of any of this? Even if you think anything short of revolution is pointless, then you still have to see that Bernie winning is a necessary prerequisite for revolution. A Sanders administration would completely change what Americans think the government should do for them. It would make it clear who is fighting against positive change. You want a revolution, you need class consciousness. You want class consciousness in America, you need Bernie.
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Nov 30, 2019 19:28
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Gripweed posted:Even if you think anything short of revolution is pointless, then you still have to see that Bernie winning is a necessary prerequisite for revolution. A Sanders administration would completely change what Americans think the government should do for them. It would make it clear who is fighting against positive change. You want a revolution, you need class consciousness. You want class consciousness in America, you need Bernie. Exactly. The US left is, right now, still in its infant stages. A Bernie presidency could enormously speed the growth of that left in such a way that would avoid a lot of pain and heartache in the future, but trying to force that infant to run before it can even walk won't do anything but kill it.
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Nov 30, 2019 19:34
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TheBalor posted:What, specifically, are you asking us to do? Stockpile arms? Draw up a list of targets and demands? Form cadres and enlist to surreptitiously gain military training? Even if we win, and that's obviously nothing to bet on, it's also going to mean a massive disruption in worldwide supply chains in the short term (nobody's making antibiotics in a bombed out building) and long term (will the evil capitalists trade fairly with the United Soviet of America?). And that means disrupting water systems, daily food deliveries, power... and that means lots of people die even if we all become Solid Snake supersoliders. And historically, the people who die after the revolution gets co-opted by mass murderers aren't just the ruling but academics*, engineers*, and broader marginalized groups. Also political dissidents. * There's obviously a fair amount of overlap, but lol just lol if you think the common working person knows how the water gets to the tap well enough to make it keep happening.
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Nov 30, 2019 19:56
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Centrist Committee posted:Yeah the whole point of the left is it isn’t a goddamn death cult that lusts for violence Where do you think you're posting
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Nov 30, 2019 19:56
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here's an argument I had with a friend a few months ago: do social democratic reforms help give people both class consciousness and the free time to carry out actions leading to further liberation, or do they dull the revolutionary edge? My friend took the latter position using tons of good examples but he verged at times on accelerationism
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Nov 30, 2019 20:02
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i say swears online posted:here's an argument I had with a friend a few months ago: do social democratic reforms help give people both class consciousness and the free time to carry out actions leading to further liberation, or do they dull the revolutionary edge? Yes
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Nov 30, 2019 20:15
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i say swears online posted:here's an argument I had with a friend a few months ago: do social democratic reforms help give people both class consciousness and the free time to carry out actions leading to further liberation, or do they dull the revolutionary edge? My friend took the latter position using tons of good examples but he verged at times on accelerationism Your friend ought keep in mind that if we don't do anything to alleviate the pain of the working class, the fascists will...but only for select "in groups" whose loyalty they want to buy.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:17
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I will say that social democracy, or any leftwing reform for that matter, is predicated on potential violence. In a capitalist state, capitalists control who gets a seat at the bargaining table. This may seem obvious but it's crucial to understanding capitalist states, doesn't matter if you're in America, India, or Sweden. Capitalists absolutely do not want reform that hurts their bottom line. The only exception to this iron rule being if they feel threatened by another class, which in modern times is obviously the working class. In which case they will either allow fascists to crush the left of they think that will work, or let reformists strike a bargain with the working class if they think otherwise. What does this mean for American leftists? Simple, you will only get M4A or the GND if the bourgeois see that as the only alternative to violence that could potentially threaten them. Meaning the electoral left must convince the bourgeois that a mass revolt that can harm them is theoretically possible if they aren't allowed to implement reform. It doesn't matter if this revolt is actually feasible, merely that the oligarchs believe that it is. How do you make this revolt look feasible? You get bodies in the street. You'll see this if Bernie gets elected. The reforms he wants to pass require an organized grassroots movement. If his suporters don't get people out in the streets after Bernie is elected, well, he's gonna get impeached pretty quickly. Bernie himself implicitly acknowledges this when be refers to his role in the movement as an organizer in chief. Look to the civil rights movement as a historical example The ruling class wouldn't have allowed the civil rights act to be passed if they thought that the masses of African Americans marching in the street were impotent. Dreddout has issued a correction as of 20:24 on Nov 30, 2019 |
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Nov 30, 2019 20:22
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Dreddout posted:I will say that social democracy, or any leftwing reform for that matter, is predicated on potential violence. This is also true.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:24
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Finally to those who say "millions of people will die in a mass uprising!" I've got bad news about how many people, even in the first world, are gonna die due to climate change. I don't want to blackpill anyone but you're naive as gently caress if you think the system in place now is gonna keep humming along until after you die. No matter what happens in the future our quality of life is gonna drop. Trying to grow the international leftwing movement as quickly as possible is the only option. Otherwise we're looking at human extinctiom
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Nov 30, 2019 20:34
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What we need is like, a rebellion, against extinction
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Nov 30, 2019 20:41
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Dreddout posted:Finally to those who say "millions of people will die in a mass uprising!" I've got bad news about how many people, even in the first world, are gonna die due to climate change. I agree with you that we're looking at major deaths no matter which way we go, but I maintain that revolution is not in the menu for the forseeable future. It may be my amerocentrism speaking, but looking at the last 100 years I don't think there's a socialist movement that's safe until the bedrock of global capitalist hegemony, the USA, is at the very least neutralized. Without a vibrant US left that can break the liberal-conservative warhawk power lock, no one is safe from the US military or the alphabet soup intelligence agencies. Without at least a period of electoralism, that left will never grow into such power. The historical record of violent internal insurrections against US power is 100% failure, and there's nothing about the current situation that indicates to me that that will change soon.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:41
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social democratic reforms dull revolutionary action, which is why Chile, Bolivia, France etc. are so much more passive and willing to sit by and do nothing compared to the revolutionary fervor of the average American citizen
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Nov 30, 2019 20:42
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TheBalor posted:I agree with you that we're looking at major deaths no matter which way we go, but I maintain that revolution is not in the menu for the forseeable future. It may be my amerocentrism speaking, but looking at the last 100 years I don't think there's a socialist movement that's safe until the bedrock of global capitalist hegemony, the USA, is at the very least neutralized. Without a vibrant US left that can break the liberal-conservative warhawk power lock, no one is safe from the US military or the alphabet soup intelligence agencies. Without at least a period of electoralism, that left will never grow into such power. The historical record of violent internal insurrections against US power is 100% failure, and there's nothing about the current situation that indicates to me that that will change soon. is this a pro pete buttigieg post? 👀
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Nov 30, 2019 20:46
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papa horny michael posted:is this a pro pete buttigieg post? 👀 No, I am in fact Chasten.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:47
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TheBalor posted:I agree with you that we're looking at major deaths no matter which way we go, but I maintain that revolution is not in the menu for the forseeable future. It may be my amerocentrism speaking, but looking at the last 100 years I don't think there's a socialist movement that's safe until the bedrock of global capitalist hegemony, the USA, is at the very least neutralized. Without a vibrant US left that can break the liberal-conservative warhawk power lock, no one is safe from the US military or the alphabet soup intelligence agencies. Without at least a period of electoralism, that left will never grow into such power. The historical record of violent internal insurrections against US power is 100% failure, and there's nothing about the current situation that indicates to me that that will change soon. I agree
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Nov 30, 2019 20:48
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On the positive side the american left, of all stripes, has been growing in power for the first time since the start of the cold war. In 2012, if you had told anyone that a self identified democratic socialist would be the most popular politician in America you'd get laughed out of the room. For perhaps the first time in American history the majority of younger generations have expressed a positive opinion in the word socialism. poo poo, according to that gallop poll even communism is rising in popularity. American capitals not going away anytime soon but it's prospects haven't been this shaky since Debs.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:54
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Now is the time of monsters etc etc
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Nov 30, 2019 20:56
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Dreddout posted:Look to the civil rights movement as a historical example The ruling class wouldn't have allowed the civil rights act to be passed if they thought that the masses of African Americans marching in the street were impotent. Not incorrect, but it's also an example of why the left can't accept anything less than the unconditional surrender of the ruling class. Whatever gains we make through politicking should be treated as cynically as possible or else it'll just become something white liberals use to prove how messianic they are.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:57
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TheBalor posted:I agree with you that we're looking at major deaths no matter which way we go, but I maintain that revolution is not in the menu for the forseeable future. It may be my amerocentrism speaking, but looking at the last 100 years I don't think there's a socialist movement that's safe until the bedrock of global capitalist hegemony, the USA, is at the very least neutralized. Without a vibrant US left that can break the liberal-conservative warhawk power lock, no one is safe from the US military or the alphabet soup intelligence agencies. Without at least a period of electoralism, that left will never grow into such power. The historical record of violent internal insurrections against US power is 100% failure, and there's nothing about the current situation that indicates to me that that will change soon. Historically speaking the US government has viewed successful grassroots reform movements and violent insurrections as simply being two aspects of the same subversive threat. In the minds of security state ghouls any movement that came within spitting distance of unraveling the security state would already be treated as an existential risk. They would also almost certainly come to believe that such a movement was receiving funding from foreign enemies regardless of whether it was or not because that's just the way spooks think, both by training and inclination.
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Nov 30, 2019 20:59
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Revolution is good, possible, and necessary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acT_PSAZ7BQ
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Nov 30, 2019 21:03
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T-man posted:you have a number of interlocking neuroses don't you i am sorry you are cringe but there's no need to be a bear about it
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Nov 30, 2019 21:03
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dead rear end cringin in the pod thread
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Nov 30, 2019 21:07
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Right now the best we can do is optimize the least number of megadeaths, and hope we don't gently caress it up and cause gigadeaths. We're on a crumbling, dying island needing to jump to a continent that does not exist, and we have to make it as we leap.
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Nov 30, 2019 21:10
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| # ? May 26, 2024 19:43 |
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T-man posted:Right now the best we can do is optimize the least number of megadeaths, and hope we don't gently caress it up and cause gigadeaths. This is gonna be Buttigieg'ss reelection slogan
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Nov 30, 2019 21:11
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