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XkyRauh posted:What's your current favorite online tabletop solution? My buddies and I tried MapTool (java lol) a few times and it was woefully clunky, albeit workable. I've only ever really messed around with Roll20, to be honest, but the field of options is a far sight better than what it was back when I was deep into 3.5E. All the stuff I have a vague recollections of using back then were pretty bad.
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Dec 2, 2019 08:15
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Another issue I have with 5E beyond its design is that Mike Mearls decided to hire two serial social media harassers as ~consultants~ in order to appeal to the anti-"SJW" crowd. It could be the best game in the world, but that's basically the chief designer's message saying he doesn't want me to play it. Fair enough.
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Dec 2, 2019 08:21
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Mister Olympus posted:The simultaneous evolution of the strongest anti-4e voices into outright nazis, both on 4chan and among grognard pockets, sort of casts an extremely suspicious light on any 4e skeptics before they actually lay out why they think the way they do. What an extremely good faith argument. Come on, this reads like a joke about Godwin's Law, you don't seriously get suspicious that someone is a nazi just because they dislike 4e, do you?
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Dec 2, 2019 08:45
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My Lovely Horse posted:Another issue I have with 5E beyond its design is that Mike Mearls decided to hire two serial social media harassers as ~consultants~ in order to appeal to the anti-"SJW" crowd. It could be the best game in the world, but that's basically the chief designer's message saying he doesn't want me to play it. Fair enough. He seems to regret doing that now. Not in a way that makes him want to apologize, mind; he hasn't given any signs of thinking he did anything wrong or admitted fault or responsibility for his direct involvement in promoting the harasser in question or outright enabling his harassment. Rather, he seems to regret that he's facing consequences for doing it, having fled social media entirely due to his posts invariably being met with people asking why he hired and defended a serial harasser and abuser, doing things like asking people to send him stories and evidence regarding harassment (which he publicly declared to be all fake later) then apparently giving it all, contact information included, to the abuser in question, leading to people getting threatening emails even if the email account they used was a fresh one used for nothing except contacting Mearls that one time due to fear of him doing just that. I would not be surprised to hear that he's still friends with Zak, really. He went above and beyond in his defense of that rapist rear end in a top hat. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 08:48
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Most of the design team for 5e seem like cool people. With Mearls he has that one black mark, and has largely vanished because of it. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 09:06
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There's always the forest of alternative brands of systems and settings to go to. Every other media has different options depending on what experience you're after, roleplaying is no different. 13th age sure seems cool. Taciturn Tactician posted:What an extremely good faith argument. Come on, this reads like a joke about Godwin's Law, you don't seriously get suspicious that someone is a nazi just because they dislike 4e, do you? It's unlikely for there to be a full correlation, but these days it's hard to forget how so many of those "harmless" aggressive online nerds gave way to the rise of the new far right and rekindling of actual nazis. I had fun with 4E, but I only really played for a short period of time and then had fun fooling around with the character builder program.
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Dec 2, 2019 09:10
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There's plenty of actual Nazis around, can we not dilute the term for people who like a different version of elfgames than we do?
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Dec 2, 2019 09:17
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MonsterEnvy posted:Most of the design team for 5e seem like cool people. With Mearls he has that one black mark, and has largely vanished because of it. Downplaying what Mearls did as "that one black mark" is gross; liking a game isn't a good reason to defend everything and everyone associated with it, especially for stuff like this. Edit: Wait, I remember where I've seen you before now; you were doing this exact same thing, defending Mearls and downplaying his actions. On multiple separate occasions. I thought your username was familiar. Why the heck are you so dedicated to defending Mearls? He loving sucks, and even if you like 5e you don't need to defend Mearls every time he's mentioned. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 11:23
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The last time I actually played D&D I think 4e had been announced but not released yet? I've been completely out of the loop since.
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Dec 2, 2019 12:29
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Oh look, a flurry of posts! A new strip must be up...
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Dec 2, 2019 12:42
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PMush Perfect posted:There's plenty of actual Nazis around, can we not dilute the term for people who like a different version of elfgames than we do? You do realise that actual alt-right types were involved in making 5e right. Also you need to remember that some of the people that accused ZakS and who got doxxed by Merles were on these forums so you might be minimising events that have actually happened to people reading your posts.
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Dec 2, 2019 12:43
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I’m fairly sure Pmush was referring to the guy who expressly said that anyone who dislikes 4e is probably a nazi, rather than the alt-right harassers nobody has actually referred to as “nazis” in the thread.
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Dec 2, 2019 12:59
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:the guy who expressly said that anyone who dislikes 4e is probably a nazi e: wait I think we're on about different posts here My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 13:20
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ArchRanger posted:Not to edition war too hard but I've literally never met anyone IRL who liked 4th edition, almost all praise I've seen for it ever has been on this forum. For me personally it was just sorta... bad but not egregiously so. So much of the info in this video is completely wrong. He talks about players having "cooldown abilities" that have to be tracked round by round (which don't exist in 4e - there are abilities you can only use once per fight or once per day, but nothing that recharges over rounds). He also claims that attributes were less impactful because every class has just one key stat, and gives the example of warlocks rolling their Constitution modifier to cast spells, so why wouldn't every warlock just stack Constitution, right? But warlocks in 4e cast spells with Charisma or Constitution depending on the spell, and their Con modifier was added as a damage bonus to certain spells - which is the opposite of the problem he's complaining about. Most classes had at least one primary and one secondary stat, and some had multiple primary attributes. He also complains about playing a warpriest because it didn't have a great deal of choice attached to its progression. But warpriest was one of the D&D Essentials classes, added late in 4e as a response to people who vocally disliked the choice-heavy 4e classes and wanted simpler character progression options. It was a class explicitly designed for beginners and people who disliked having a bunch of powers to choose from. Its martial equivalent, the slayer, was a fighter in the 3.5e style where your only moves were Charge and Hit With Sword.
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Dec 2, 2019 13:34
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I played a bunch of 4e around 2010 or so and it ran smoothly enough for a literal beer-and-pretzels campaign where we spent 90% of the time in combat and chatting about parties and exams inbetween computer-assisted dice rolls, but honestly the game felt pretty loving soulless and corporate compared to the (over)ambitious design of 3e, and I couldn't imagine running an actual roleplaying campaign in it. Or, as Mister Olympus would put it, Sieg Heil.
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Dec 2, 2019 13:42
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Man, there's another part where he complains that all the 4e healing classes get a variation on "heal twice per encounter as a minor action", but then leaves out that all of their healing abilities have different secondary effects, like warlords give you temporary HP, bards lets you move off-turn when they heal you, etc. Which like... 1) Healing Word was carried over to 5e, because it's a good mechanic. Still a bonus action and everything! 2) 3.5e had every healing class use the identical Cure Light/Moderate/Major Wounds and Heal spells, which was less variety than the thing he's complaining about.
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Dec 2, 2019 13:52
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Why do you need rules for roleplaying? Like Fiasco has drat near no words about how to actually play and that's all roleplay. So I'm not sure why 4e is always brought out as some game that's impossible to roleplay in
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Dec 2, 2019 13:53
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Taciturn Tactician posted:What an extremely good faith argument. Come on, this reads like a joke about Godwin's Law, you don't seriously get suspicious that someone is a nazi just because they dislike 4e, do you? No, just someone who immediately goes to "bear lore," "disassociated mechanics," "verisimilitude," that one rogue power where enemies hit themselves, talks about 4e in relation to WoW or any of the old chestnuts is indicating for being an edition warrior of a certain period which correlates strongly with being far right. It's fine to dislike 4e because it's much more a skirmish wargame than anything else, or because it keeps too many of the old bad D&D sacred cows even when it tries, or because it has feat taxes built into the math, limiting build diversity, or because it has way too many options to keep track of. So as that makes clear, I'm not accusing anyone in this thread, just stating that the early foundations of 4e criticism were based on dumb 4chan memes that some people end up picking up uncritically without awareness of why they're wrong, and other people have gone off the deep end with and are convinced are signs that hating 4e owns the libs Still the best D&D tho, for as low a bar as that is, and NihilCredo posted:I played a bunch of 4e around 2010 or so and it ran smoothly enough for a literal beer-and-pretzels campaign where we spent 90% of the time in combat and chatting about parties and exams inbetween computer-assisted dice rolls, but honestly the game felt pretty loving soulless and corporate compared to the (over)ambitious design of 3e, and I couldn't imagine running an actual roleplaying campaign in it. Or, as Mister Olympus would put it, Sieg Heil. this is entirely on presentation and not the game itself, and 4e's "soulless and corporate" presentation is just stating in clear rules language things that 3.5 and 5e put in deliberately ambiguous "natural" language to burden the GM with more ad-hoc rulings. Also the interesting things to do outside of combat in 3.5/5 are locked exclusively to people who can cast spells because of (3.5) really bad ideas of what makes a good RPG / (5) a cult of the people who have developed this fetish for things that 3.5 did for no real reason besides "it's what i first learned so it feels right." Same people who played pathfinder exclusively while 4e was running then switched back to 5 and have never played any other RPG Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 14:00
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Len posted:Why do you need rules for roleplaying? Like Fiasco has drat near no words about how to actually play and that's all roleplay. So I'm not sure why 4e is always brought out as some game that's impossible to roleplay in It's got just as much rules as any other edition of dnd which is to say it goes "Yeah these skills could be used in social situations... Byyyyyyyye" and then it slams the door before you ask about maybe if they could elaborate on that
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Dec 2, 2019 14:04
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"Corporate" is exactly what 5e feels like to me, from catering to the most rabidly vocal subset of fans regardless of their ethics and politics to the tie-ins with Rick & Morty and Stranger Things and the internet marketing through actual play podcasts, all the way to the actual rules themselves which are at best nostalgically comforting but bland and risk-free and at worst deliberately designed to be just vague enough that they generate constant social media exposure through rules discussions.
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Dec 2, 2019 14:19
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I missed out on a feat in my 5e game because I didn't realize how feats work is very different now.  (If I really insisted on it maybe I could have swapped that ability score tick for a feat but I'm fine with it)
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Dec 2, 2019 14:53
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My Lovely Horse posted:"Corporate" is exactly what 5e feels like to me, from catering to the most rabidly vocal subset of fans regardless of their ethics and politics to the tie-ins with Rick & Morty and Stranger Things and the internet marketing through actual play podcasts, all the way to the actual rules themselves which are at best nostalgically comforting but bland and risk-free and at worst deliberately designed to be just vague enough that they generate constant social media exposure through rules discussions. To be entirely fair if 4e had been a position to go that hard on any of those tie-ins, it would have. Remember the penny arcade tie ins? I'd be willing to entertain an argument that the blame 4e 'failing'* was an even split between the PF grog exodus and trying marketing strategies that wouldn't be viable until Twitch and internet celebrity culture started existing. *failing here is relative, because as I understand it, D&D hasn't actually turned a profit in decades and is kept around mainly as a legacy brand and killing something with that much name recognition would be bad press. So more "4e lost more money than usual"
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Dec 2, 2019 14:56
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ikanreed posted:As long as we're in the alignment 9 hells, here's my awful take.
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Dec 2, 2019 14:57
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So something else I just realized about this- http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html Nobody knows that the Oracle is a kobold. Which suggests that they definitely don't know her powers come from Tiamat, an evil God on the other side of the planet. This seems relevant insofar as the source of Durkon's prophecy purportedly being Odin. Someone could very easily have just assumed it was an Odin prophecy especially since Odin himself is too senile too clearly correct someone who brought it up directly. Don't mind me d&d chat. I'm just really convinced Tiamat's going to be a major player in the last book.
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Dec 2, 2019 15:00
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I'll never forgive 4e for killing my dog. Forcing me to go on a roaring rampage of revenge where I kicked in the door into some unsuspecting person's D&D game and crush their minis underfoot.Ephemeron posted:This is still the best alignment take in this thread and a serious contender to the best alignment take of all time. It's decent, though I don't think it covers everything superwell.
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Dec 2, 2019 15:00
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Some Guy TT posted:So something else I just realized about this- Did I miss something where the Oracle is identified as female? Belkar definitely refers to the Oracle as "he" in that strip (but Belkar's an rear end in a top hat).
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Dec 2, 2019 15:07
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Nah just a random guess. Oracles are usually female and the party at large is canonically bad about sex distinctions.
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Dec 2, 2019 15:12
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Some Guy TT posted:So something else I just realized about this- Couple things. The prophecy did come from a priest of Odin, we know this cause it was shown in one of the books that detailed how the Order met. And the Oracle doesn't go to anyone with poo poo, people have to come to him and they get prophecies based on direct questions. Tiamat may still be a major player, but she had nothing to do with Durkon's fate or the Northern God's business. Edit: also the Oracle is a guy iirc, though that may just be based off them naming a village Lickmyorangeballshalfling
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Dec 2, 2019 15:13
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I haven't read the book in forever but I seem to recall the proof being offered in the form of a third person anecdote. Which is to say, we never see the prophecy directly and who's to say that someone didn't just assume the Oracle was a priest of Odin? That Tiamat has an Oracle in the Northern lands in the first place is already meddling to a surprising degree considering how strict we've seen the Gods be about separation of powers, even if it's fairly passive.
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Dec 2, 2019 15:25
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Some Guy TT posted:So something else I just realized about this- His powers come from Tiamat. The oracle is a guy. Celia assumes the oracle is a woman, but that's mostly she forgot even having seen him. The Oracle's teleport-resurrecter team also address him as "sir", not "ma'am", and they would know better than anyone else. And then we get an edition war joke. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 15:35
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E:nvm brain fart
Shaking lemur butt fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 16:35
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Roy remembers that the Oracle was a kobold since he bypassed the memory charm. And he said he remembers everything that happened while he was ground side.
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Dec 2, 2019 16:38
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Mister Olympus posted:*failing here is relative, because as I understand it, D&D hasn't actually turned a profit in decades and is kept around mainly as a legacy brand and killing something with that much name recognition would be bad press. So more "4e lost more money than usual" I went to an event here in Seattle a couple of weeks ago that was a live play session and debut party for the "Rick & Morty" boxed set, and interviewed a few people. Long story short, thanks to things like streaming games, transmedia synergy, and its popularity among '80s nerds, D&D is on a substantial upswing. My big takeaway is that the hobby has aggressively shifted, to an extent that a lot of people are still trying to figure out.
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Dec 2, 2019 16:45
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 And we're done here!
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Dec 2, 2019 17:25
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Can't say I saw that coming. Then again, neither can they.
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Dec 2, 2019 17:36
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Ooh, mystery third party. They're bringing the paladins' weapons with them for some reason.
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Dec 2, 2019 17:37
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So... what the hell could both of them be?
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Dec 2, 2019 17:37
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Gaah, here's looking for three months of alignment chat 
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Dec 2, 2019 17:37
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That must be some pretty good poison to take down O-Chul.
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Dec 2, 2019 17:38
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There's no  big enough for how I feel about this.
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