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Bushido Brown posted:Why can't we just say "wow, gently caress people who work at McKinsey" or "gently caress Peter for opportunistically joining the military to improve is loving resume." the question is if he's actively a fascist or just a fascist collaborator
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Dec 6, 2019 20:35
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mormonpartyboat posted:oh word? Yeah. So you have to deal with the fallout of that, which means that the VP of the 78 year old president needs to be more than just some rear end in a top hat who shouts the right things in the background.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:36
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mormonpartyboat posted:sanders being a dogshit choice for a presidential candidate is its own can of worms Groovelord Neato posted:Wonder if Sanders would be the obvious frontrunner at this point if he hadn't had a heart attack. Turns out when you assassinate, marginalize, oppress and otherwise silence the left for generations except for a goofy old man no one was afraid of because of how goofy he was, that’s all that’s available. This would be fine if we had time for a Goldwater moment—it’s incredibly easy to imagine how a Sanders loss in 2020 would be the harbinger of AOC 2024 or 2028—but instead we barely have a decade in which we can possibly prevent the end of all life on Earth. So, you know, you go to war with the army you came with, and our army is an ancient old man who just had heart surgery. We have the worst loving timeline, ugh.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:36
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mormonpartyboat posted:everything you said after this sentence are issues of aesthetics; owning the libs is a (the? [either way, iconic]) classic aesthetics choice White supremacy is not a matter of aesthetics. It's a policy position.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:37
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rko posted:Edit: Bushido Brown, the only thing I find “vapid” is the notion that we need to establish how everybody feels about the hypothetical limits of “when is it ethical to not blow the whistle.” We know McKinsey was up to poo poo, that none of Pete’s story about how anodyne his work was adds up, and that people running for the office of President of the United States on the Democratic Party ticket should probably not be hiding behind the NDAs of his lovely former employer if the reality is that he was too much of a coward to speak out against inhumanities that took place in his workplace. I’m sorry I am not suicidal, I guess? Though I’ve been told to kill myself once or twice in CSPAM with no punishment given to the offenders. Most people will keep going, even when life is lovely. Even when they’re serfs. And if you are serious you would jump off a bridge in the face of politics sucking, please seek actual professional help. I mean that sincerely, on the off chance you aren’t trivializing suicide as a rhetorical device. Also Lol at making a rap sheet argument. “You can clearly see this back to the future reference was against D&D norms.” yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 20:39
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luckily, 99.9% of politicians are self serving, so in the event that Bernie Sanders wins in a landslide, you really just want a VP who is willing to move further left publicly. An overton window shift alone can do a lot, providing you pick someone with a decent moral core.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:39
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King of Solomon posted:Yeah. So you have to deal with the fallout of that, which means that the VP of the 78 year old president needs to be more than just some rear end in a top hat who shouts the right things in the background. I think we’re putting the cart way before the horse here. The decision space here isn’t very clear—I think it’s very likely, for example, that whoever wins the nomination will have to make a choice for VP based on delegate count, endorsements, etc. It’s still possible that, say, a Sanders/Warren ticket is the only way either of them come out of the convention headed to the general election. And frankly, I think any candidate that beats Bernie and doesn’t put him on the ticket will be making the same mistake Hillary did, since I think she would’ve won with Clinton/Sanders instead of Clinton/Kaine.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:40
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eviltastic posted:White supremacy is not a matter of aesthetics. It's a policy position. aesthetics are the vehicle, policies are the payload the best ideas in the world wrapped up in lovely aesthetics will get loving nowhere. 95% of the work for a hardworking functional nazi is convincing a bunch of idiot yokels to not think of it as white supremacy and instead just a question of busing their kids across town or whatever rko posted:We have the worst loving timeline, ugh. yeah it owns lmao
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Dec 6, 2019 20:42
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Bernie had a stent installed, not exactly heart surgery. The heart attack is bad but it's not like he had a major coronary event and had to have a triple bypass.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:45
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troop https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1202670907745062914 joe rogan https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1202558738130800641 new hampshire https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1202756110450659329 i swear i saw this one already but timestamp says it's from six hours ago https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1202922132407062529
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Dec 6, 2019 20:52
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Am I nuts or is Buttigieg’s campaign manager the same Lis Smith who got her toes sucked in a hot tub by Eliot Spitzer?! Edit: IT’S HER selec fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 20:56
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mormonpartyboat posted:the question is if he's actively a fascist or just a fascist collaborator I think we already know enough to call him a racist fascist given his history.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:56
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VitalSigns posted:Well he claims know for certain that specific donors to his campaign absolutely were not involved in McKinsey's work showing ICE how to divert funding into McKinsey consulting fees by cutting costs on food and medicine, so apparently he knows what people were working on yet we had to find out from the New York Times. This doesn't follow, but OK.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:57
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twodot posted:We don't loving know because he won't loving tell us. The fact that he won't loving tell us combined with his tendency to publicly bulldoze homeless camps creates a pretty reasonable presumption that the thing he won't loving tell us is pretty loving bad. This is the most compelling argument I've heard here on this.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:58
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Bushido Brown posted:This doesn't follow, but OK. but it does, either he knows the details of the projects everyone is working on at McKinsey so he knows whose money he can accept with a clear conscience and whose he can't, or he is just lying and doesn't care as long as he gets the money which isn't any better (and certainly doesn't make me inclined to trust him when he says he only worked on the fairy gumdrops for orphans style projects and not the withhold medicine from refugees to make a buck style projects) VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 21:01
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selec posted:Am I nuts or is Buttigieg’s campaign manager the same Lis Smith who got her toes sucked in a hot tub by Eliot Spitzer?! 90% of everyone involved in politics is insane and gross, I hate it so much. Taking a break from VP chat, Bernie announced an extremely good thing today: https://twitter.com/CaraKorte/status/1202920624852615168
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Dec 6, 2019 21:02
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Pete's been pretty clear that anything bad McKinsey has engaged in started after he left so we'll just have to trust that they were good and noble while he was working there.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:03
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Bushido Brown posted:I think we already know enough to call him a racist fascist given his history. yeah that should have been "if he was actively a fascist or just a fascist collaborator while he was at mckinsey"
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Dec 6, 2019 21:04
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yronic heroism posted:I’m sorry I am not suicidal, I guess? Though I’ve been told to kill myself once or twice in CSPAM with no punishment given to the offenders. Most people will keep going, even when life is lovely. Even when they’re serfs. And if you are serious you would jump off a bridge in the face of politics sucking, please seek actual professional help. I mean that sincerely, on the off chance you aren’t trivializing suicide as a rhetorical device. Good lord you are an rear end in a top hat. No, I’m not trivializing poo poo, I’m saying that if I had the same lack of political imagination you obviously do, I would be drowning in hopelessness and cynicism and wouldn’t see much point in any of this at all. If the last 40 years represent the limits of our politics, if it’s impossible to do more than what Obama or Clinton did, then we’re doomed, and that’s all there is to it. That’s not rhetoric, that’s the lovely world we live in. Maybe if you felt this kind of urgency you would have a reason to take off the massive blinkers you’re wearing around? We have so little time to fix things. The last thing we need is nihilism.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:05
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rko posted:Good lord you are an rear end in a top hat. No, I’m not trivializing poo poo, I’m saying that if I had the same lack of political imagination you obviously do, I would be drowning in hopelessness and cynicism and wouldn’t see much point in any of this at all. Yes the world was destroyed, but for a brief shining moment we dropped sick online owns on the people fighting for better things
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Dec 6, 2019 21:11
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“The next president will need to move their legislative agenda on the first two years of it won’t happen” = unforgivable nihilism and now rko is going to give a lecture about urgency. Got it.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:11
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https://twitter.com/alexnpress/status/1203041441343320071 lmao
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Dec 6, 2019 21:12
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yronic heroism posted:“The next president will need to move their legislative agenda on the first two years of it won’t happen” = unforgivable nihilism. Got it. Actually what you said was that the VP doesn't matter because Bernie will definitely live through the midterms, and Republicans will retake congress, and apparently there's zero danger in having a moderate Democrat in the White House with a Republican congress
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Dec 6, 2019 21:13
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Pete's been pretty clear that anything bad McKinsey has engaged in started after he left so we'll just have to trust that they were good and noble while he was working there. In fact, Pete was the moral compass of McKinsey and that's why bad things only happened after he left
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Dec 6, 2019 21:14
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 Oh goddammit Castro.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:15
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Majorian posted:Well, given that my point was that refusing to give one’s base what they want usually turns out very poorly for the incumbent party in midterms, I’d say a lot of them prove my point, 2010 would be an obvious example to which I alluded earlier, but 1994 also fits the bill nicely.  I mean there's nothing anyone can do about it. It's not like it's a symptom of ongoing disappointment of the American public in the state of politics. And even if it was there's nothing you can do about that, either, just like you can't change other fundamental physical constants. It's just the way it is.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:15
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What's the play here? Who is he trying to appeal to by being the tenth moderate to take a bad position?
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Dec 6, 2019 21:16
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Wicked Them Beats posted:What's the play here? Who is he trying to appeal to by being the tenth moderate to take a bad position? dems are a mess dems are a waste
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Dec 6, 2019 21:18
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I love when poo poo that happens in politics is just assumed to be some immutable law of loving physics or something. Like, yeah, the party that holds the executive loses seats in the midterm because... well probably for the same reason opposite electric charges attract each other, right guys? Other reasons the VP is important which haven't been mentioned: if the VP takes over then they'll be the incumbent in 2024, and will probably run, so it would be good if it's a popular progressive VP and not some empty suit who couldn't even hack it in a primary election
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Dec 6, 2019 21:19
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Wicked Them Beats posted:What's the play here? Who is he trying to appeal to by being the tenth moderate to take a bad position? I assume he wants to be vice president and he agrees with his colleagues that Bernie will never win, so this is basically a play for Dem orthodoxy, at least as I understand it. yronic heroism posted:“The next president will need to move their legislative agenda on the first two years of it won’t happen” = unforgivable nihilism and now rko is going to give a lecture about urgency. Aren’t you literally the same person who believes that Sanders won’t be able to get anything done with the Senate as it’s currently constituted anyway? I don’t think Sanders can move a legislative agenda through Congress as it exists today or as it’ll exist even under the best circumstances in 2021; the left’s entire political project requires a true national realignment or we can look forward to a fun selection of dystopian futures. And it’s your smug insistence that better things aren’t possible that pisses me off so much, frankly. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I love when poo poo that happens in politics is just assumed to be some immutable law of loving physics or something. Like, yeah, the party that holds the executive loses seats in the midterm because... well probably for the same reason opposite electric charges attract each other, right guys? The end of the world is easier to imagine than the end of capitalism, or whatever.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:25
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Wicked Them Beats posted:What's the play here? Who is he trying to appeal to by being the tenth moderate to take a bad position? There's absolutely no reason for him to say something like this at this point in the game, especially after establishing his entire position in the race as "woke dude", aside from signaling to donors and various political movemakers that he can be relied on to hold the line on those most centrist and politically expedient bipartisan matters (Israel, Wall Street, etc) It is absolutely the sort of centrist liberal brainworm poo poo that King of Soloman, Judakel, SKULL GIF and other posters were asserting he would revert back to if given the opportunity and I disagreed by saying that he had appeared to evolved past that but I was 100% wrong.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:25
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oxsnard posted:i mean i guess he could be lying??? He's a pretty nice guy personally and i have no reason to doubt him. He literally said he'd line up and vote for sanders gladly, because not Trump. He also hates everything about the Republican party now. He has no personal financial reason to support a left wing candidate but what the GOP has done has disgusted him so much that literally nothing else matters. I'm not saying he's some large silent block of the country but this phenomenon is real Oracle posted:Been going door to door and talking to a lot of Boomer Dems and they have all, to a man/woman, said the same thing. Anyone is better than Trump. Making jokes about a potted plant could be on the ballot and if there's a D after its name they're voting for it. I don't know why people consider this a "silent bloc" when every opinion poll backs it up. Trump's approval rate has bottomed out at around 40% for months. Any democrat that people have actually heard of beats him head to head. The "undecideds" literally never shift to Trump in polling. The polls are not joking when they say that Trump has completely and irrevocably lost the suburban white lady vote and there's nothing he's willing to do to bring it back, only alienate it further.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:39
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Mat Cauthon posted:Well for one thing all of those orgs, institutions, outlets, etc are overwhelming white, urban-centered, and middle class (or at least stem from middle class backgrounds) and have made few inroads with poor or working class, minority communities, with the admitted exception of like a handful of DSA chapters (Houston, NOLA, etc) that literally could not exist or function politically if they neglected to organize alongside the Black and Brown people in their city. This is before we get into the various controversies and baggage that all of them have. A "growing leftist movement" that can't or won't expand beyond it's white middle class background and interests is not one that is gonna be able to really do the work, or be sustainable in the long haul. https://medium.com/texas-mccombs/empathetic-cops-are-less-happy-struggle-more-on-the-beat-f8fff57fae28 quote:Over time, officers who desire the most communal, rehabilitative relationships with the public may be the ones most likely to exit their agencies because they are less effective in coping with public misunderstandings.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:39
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rko posted:Aren’t you literally the same person who believes that Sanders won’t be able to get anything done with the Senate as it’s currently constituted anyway? I don’t think Sanders can move a legislative agenda through Congress as it exists today or as it’ll exist even under the best circumstances in 2021; the left’s entire political project requires a true national realignment or we can look forward to a fun selection of dystopian futures. And it’s your smug insistence that better things aren’t possible that pisses me off so much, frankly. If he wins and has 51 in the Senate he will get something through, but it’s going to look way more like Obama 2.5 than anything else. I’m not going to lie to myself just so I can destroy my view of reality (not hopes) in three years’ time. Realignment will be a much longer slog and Bernie is 78.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:42
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oxsnard posted:extremely anecdotal, but I spoke with a private equity guy who sends his kids to the same school as mine. He's a typical center right "liberal" and is voting for Biden, because the "soul of our nation is at stake." He's the kind of guy who would vote for Mitt Romney over Sanders or Warren but told me in no uncertain terms that he would literally vote for any Trump opponent. He's picking Biden because he "has the best chance to beat trump." I've had a few similar experiences recently as well. What I'm saying is don't underestimate the "anybody but Trump" demographic But that just supports my point that Sanders' VP being more centrist won't convince anyone to vote for him that wouldn't have anyways. The guy you mention would (if you're correct) vote for Sanders regardless of who his VP is. oxsnard posted:as an aside, the assumption that all people who "do X" are motivated by the same thing pisses me off. I'm a guy who grew up in a middle class, white area to religious parents who are sort of prototypical boomer center right republicans. I started out as a shithead republican, went through a libertarian phase in college and moved to center left following college. Obama was "too liberal" for me in 08 but I still voted for him. I am a high earner, straight, well educated and work in an oil adjacent industry (formerly worked directly in oil). I've moved drastically to the left even as my personal situation improved greatly. The presumption that I cannot possibly be motivated by thinking 100 years down the road pisses me off. Give me a tax hike if that means we don't let people starve or die of treatable illnesses. I think there are lots of flaws in the New Green Deal plan, and I think black and white thinking on oil is dumb, but ultimately that doesn't matter. There's a clear, overall correct path for this country to go down and I will do everything I can to make that happen I'm not sure why we should care about this. It is entirely reasonable to not trust "high earners" (as you put it), and the fact that it bothers you so much that people think poorly of them does not bode well in terms of you personally staying a reliable political ally. This is basically like when white people get upset about black people saying mean things about them, except even worse. Bushido Brown posted:Other than responding with a naked ad hom, do you have a response? It is difficult for me to understand why someone would be so invested in the idea that people don't have a responsibility to whistle blow or shouldn't be held responsible for who they work for. It is very easy to distinguish between someone like Buttigieg, who had many options and was very well compensated, and someone working some retail/service job. The former both has more options and benefits more from the unethical work in question.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:53
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mormonpartyboat posted:this is just agreeing with me that beelining for the white house is not the way to overwrite a government quote:when i'm talking about the party, i'm talking about the whole apparatus. butter greg's whole resume, from the media that broke his brain as a child to going to harvard to working for mckinsey is part of the machine that shapes people into ~capitalists, with rules~
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Dec 6, 2019 21:54
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Oracle posted:I honestly didn't know that's what you were saying. mormonpartyboat posted:that's the real fight; getting a perfectly spherical leftist into the pres and vp slots does nothing unless you can wrangle the gargantuan body of the state into a leftist shape, and that needs tens of thousands of lilliputian leftists who know how to pull the right cords
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Dec 6, 2019 21:57
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This talk of "hey sanders should just make [some establishment shithead who says mildly ok things sometimes] his VP!" is idiotic as gently caress. Even the people who've come around on Bernie are still holding onto this lingering desire of liberalism to capitulate and compromise as soon as possible. Its like having conviction is white hot metal, and if liberals manage to hold it, they need to rush to drop it as fast as possible so they can sigh and put their hand in some cold water. You don't leap at the chance to compromise, you fight until your knuckles are bloody and you're forced into it, and even then you should try to keep some sand in your pocket to throw in their eyes, or another dirty trick to get out of it if you can and win. Why would you compromise on a position as insanely important (especially to a candidate in his 70's) as the vice president? Theres a problem with too few leftists in positions of power, and that doesn't get helped by bringing in establishment ghouls, it comes from CREATING new people in power by giving them power and spotlight. Joe Biden is only running because after 50 years as an rear end in a top hat failing presidential campaigns, Obama gave him a bump by putting him in that position. Why would you not want to put Nina Turner (and others in his cabinet) in that position where after bernie they now all have high name recognition and power in the party? Bernie needs to keep as many of the existing people out as possible. Fill up his cabinet with nationally unknown people, who are committed to a cause and MAKE THEM nationally known. Never, ever, compromise on matters of life and death (which is politics, even if some people want to treat it like a sports game), until you are so bloody and beaten down you have no choice.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:59
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Tom Guycot posted:Never, ever, compromise on matters of life and death (which is politics, even if some people want to treat it like a sports game), until you are so bloody and beaten down you have no choice. sending bernie to the white house instead of the hauge is already a compromise lmao
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Dec 6, 2019 22:02
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I guess I'm saying its not as insurmountable a task as you seem to believe and there are underpinnings already there that can be built upon, Democratic Party a waste(tm) or no.
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Dec 6, 2019 22:02
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