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MikeStmria posted:This is interesting. Media here likes to sell us that he has a terrible standing with some countries in South America because he hasn't attended a single summit. And the whole Bolivia thing, all Evo Stuff was shaded by a swarm of Memes. It's worth noting that many governments in Latin America are trending right unfortunately, so your president wouldn't find many natural allies in the region. Also you oughta consider his relationship with the US. I don't know why you think Porfirio Diaz was cool but if he ever he did anything worthwhile it was when he said "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States." It's one of my favorite quotes due to its horrific truth. All that to say maybe AMLO would want to be closer to Cuba or Venezuela, but Mexico can't risk the ire of the US, more than necessary anyway.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:09
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It's generally estimated that the cost of having agents to control and cut off those who cheat on their welfare is higher than the cost of just giving welfare to everyone without bothering to check if they really need it. That's one of the drive behind universal basic income.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:13
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MikeStmria posted:I didn't replied to this because I have no idea of whats the difference between a Democrat and a Republican It's not really for you. The thing is, I believe you are authentically a right-wing Mexican national, so I don't expect you to understand my insult. The insult is directed at people who think we should blindly trust in the testimonies of people native to this or that country, as if there are no right-wingers able to post on the Something Awful Dot Com Forums.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:17
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MikeStmria posted:Probably and I am probably wrong but I don't consider that giving it to the ones thst loving do something for their lives slashing welfare Really cool to complain about those lazy people on a job training program not doing something with their lives when you were literally born with a cushy future job opening in your family's business regardless of qualification or effort. Let me guess, your "weirdly" pro-AMLO friends don't have family businesses.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:28
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To everyone responding to MikeStmria, please take into account that it's just plain hard to be politically informed (on bad days, I'd say it's hard to be informed about anything) in Mexico. I think he's got plenty of bias, as he readily admitted, but fwiw I think he's posting in good faith.MikeStmria posted:There are other jobs, like medical internship that recive no payment. Why this guys should recive a payment without studiing or working. You've quoted a single line out of context here. If you read the entire thing, these programs look great and in effect not too different from public education sponsorships and unemployment insurance in the so-called developed world. I'll translate a few bits: quote:Desde antes de asumir la Presidencia, Andrés Manuel López Obrador anunció que durante su administración apoyaría a la niñez y juventud mexicana con becas para continuar sus estudios o recibir una capacitación para convertirse en aprendices de un oficio. Since before assuming the Presidency, AMLO has announced that his administration will help Mexican children and youth with sponsorships to continue their studies or receive a qualification to become apprentices in a line of work. quote:1. Jóvenes construyendo el futuro The "Youth building the future" program has two parts: Educational grants and work apprenticeship grants. The first is directed at youth that have a high school diploma and would like to pursue university studies. It's 2400 pesos a month, which covers your rent if you share an apartment in a city, but probably not in the capital. The second is for job seekers' apprenticeships and is as much a subsidy for the employer as for the apprentice; the apprentice gets a direct payment from the government of 3600 pesos a month for up to a year, with monthly evaluations, and the employer gets free labor in exchange for teaching them about the work. quote:2. Becas Benito Juárez The Benito Juárez grant is for parents whose children are from 0-15 years old and contingent on the kids attending school. It's 1600 pesos every other month (so 800 pesos a month, which buys... a serving of tacos a day, something like that). quote:3. Becas Conacyt para madres solteras The Conacyt grant for single mothers to finish their studies. 3600 pesos monthly plus 2000 pesos a year. The requirements are actually quite strict; the mother must be the head of a family with at least one child less than 18 years old and can not share their living space with a partner. She must be attending college or university. She can not already have any degree, i.e. you get this for your first degree only. So... comparing these programs to what I've seen in Europe, it's a good start but it doesn't really come close to the kind of help students and work seekers get here. It's a shame this kind of thing is at all controversial in Mexico.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:32
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The problem programs like this are trying to address is a basic market failure; a lot of businesses need workers, but can't afford to pay them enough, and a lot of people need jobs but they don't pay enough to get by. So the government steps in and puts up the difference. With time, this increases the level of education and technical expertise of the general population, boosts businesses' bottom line (they get a pipeline of potential workers basically risk-free, with matchmaking, payroll and follow-up from the government) and puts money in the hands of their local customers. The government increases its tax base because formal jobs replace jobs in the informal economy. Apart from the societal benefits, it's great for people who don't have connections and can't benefit from corruption/nepotism to get a cushy "safe" job. Also, there's stuff like kids not going to school because they get sent out to beg instead. But most people would rather they went to school if they had some other way to cover the family budget, and the child/youth grants do that. This is really basic stuff and it shouldn't be hard to understand how it's in everyone's best interest. RIP Syndrome fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Dec 7, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2019 01:46
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RIP Syndrome posted:To everyone responding to MikeStmria, please take into account that it's just plain hard to be politically informed (on bad days, I'd say it's hard to be informed about anything) in Mexico. I think he's got plenty of bias, as he readily admitted, but fwiw I think he's posting in good faith. They are not, unless you are a brain broken right winger. Also, do you even realize how smug you sound? "Oh those poor little mexicans, they don't know poo poo! How could they argue in bad faith when it's impossible to know anything about their poo poo country in the first place? What a shame these savages argue about basic things!" Try being less condescending when you provide your magnanimous assistance to us mud hut dwellers, pal.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:02
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Det_no posted:They are not, unless you are a brain broken right winger. Also, do you even realize how smug you sound? Shrug. Half my family is Mexican, I've spent decades there and that's my lived experience minus the words you're trying to put in my mouth. It's not anything innate to the country or the people, but most of the media is like Fox News turned up to 11. I don't really fault journalists for that since critical journalism can get you killed. Oh, and please explain how grants are not useful unless you're a brain broken right winger. RIP Syndrome fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Dec 7, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2019 02:05
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RIP Syndrome posted:Shrug. Half my family is Mexican, I've spent decades there and that's my lived experience minus the words you're trying to put in my mouth. Can I quote you now or are you going to keep editing your post to backpedal bits? You know, the bits that you know did make you sound condescending so you got cold feet on them? And I meant those programs are not controvesial unless you are a brain broken right winger.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:18
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Det_no posted:Can I quote you now or are you going to keep editing your post to backpedal bits? You know, the bits that you know did make you sound condescending so you got cold feet on them? Dude, what's wrong with you? I didn't backpedal anything, I expanded it so you wouldn't misunderstand or try to quote it out of context.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:22
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Det_no posted:Can I quote you now or are you going to keep editing your post to backpedal bits? You know, the bits that you know did make you sound condescending so you got cold feet on them? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lots of folks in Latin America are right wingers, though, is I think the point. I might do a whole effortpost on the Uruguayan elections, but 73?% of folks polled wanted to give crazy latitude to the military with the dictatorship still in recent memory. My folks have unironically told me they care more about a neighbor abusing benefits or declaring bankruptcy when they don’t have to over some kleptocrat pocketing way more in bribes. The election was disappointing but barely a surprise.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:25
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MikeStmria posted:Didn't know this. Still find it interesting for him too :P I might just be salty they are doing other things and calling their followers to celebrate the change. What the gently caress are you on PAN is super clerical and super hard right, they were even formed after the pro-nazi Falange. "Can't tell if left or right" Is this a loving JOKE? PRI is also super right, super neoliberal and focused on privatization since the drat 80's. Can't tell if left or right? Again, are you joking? Or are you oblivious
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Dec 7, 2019 02:30
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uninterrupted posted:¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lots of folks in Latin America are right wingers, though, is I think the point. Exactly, lots of folks are right wingers, and some are right wingers without really knowing that's what they are (like anywhere, I suppose -- someone earlier in the thread mentioned "ignorance"). I said it's a shame it's controversial because I was addressing it to MikeStmria, and he'd said the country is polarized between pro-AMLO and anti-AMLO groups, which is true, and naturally if you're anti-AMLO you're also anti-whatever-policy-he-proposes, which in this cases seems to be good policy. Edit: Added the quote from uninterrupted since a post got in between.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:30
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Luisfe posted:What the gently caress are you on I mean...do you guys still talk to, like, regular people in Latin America, because that's pretty much exactly a template for what a proto-Bolsonaro voter is, much as people wanna believe they're all out in the streets gay bashing and whatever. It's the whole "all politicians suck" without really knowing much about politics.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:36
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MikeStmria posted:There are other jobs, like medical internship that recive no payment.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:44
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No my friends do have family bussines too, maybe me being from a big city also has a great influx and me being from the city where AMLO was the major has some more impact on me as I suffered his blockades and other stuff he did. As far as I know Mexico doesn't has an unemployment support or things like that. Which you might think I'm bs but I totally agree with. If my understanding of this is correct is that as long as you are actively looking for job the states helps you with some money. Elaborating a bit more on my friends view on AMLO I have both which is also why I looked to ask in here. I have friends that support AMLO that studied in the same school than me, most of them with far more whealth and way better oportunities than I have. I also have friends that were and soe of them still are in way worse conditions than I am and do not support AMLO and think that he is doing is wrong. Again most of the people I know are no politic experts. AMLO is really controversial in Meico because one day he wakes up to something and the next day retracts. There is an interesting hashtag called AMLO vs AMLO which shows his tweets (he is following Trumps style of tweeting a lot) and his more recent tweets or interviews. I also want to clarify something when I am refering to internship I think here stuff is getting lost in translation and thats my fault. What I am refering to as ain internship is when you are studing and the schools (dont know in other places is the same) asks you to cover certain amount of hours working on something, without payment in order to graduate. Both private and Public schools do this and its an actual requirement from the Education Minestery (they are changing the names to everything right now so not even sure of whats the name of each thing atm). So yes I don't find it fair that there are students and people that work their rear end off and have 2 or 3 jobs to pay for their school needs (even public ones) and him giving them money, that, TO MY POINT OF VIEW is just because. I think Porfirio Diaz made a lot of cultural improvements and roads and stuff that really helped develop Mexico, as any other mandatary he did hosed up things too. Here he didn't went primarly to remove this people for the costs, even to I think it has influence since 4T (thats how the government calls them sells) is selling that they are under a Republican austerity. He declared that the main reason was to remove corruption because every single program is corrupted, Which I totally believe. I don't see it as a schoolar ship. there are literally schools that you need to pay 1 peso for a full year of school. Some one commented that one of the issues is employees not paying enough and I agree to this profesional (collage degree) regular wage is between 10 to 15k per month. Thats pesos ofc. People here spend at least half of its income in transportation. I legit don't have a valid excuse on why someone that is, say 25, does not work or studies. Maybe, the only valid reason is that the work is waay too far and he will spend more than his income. Maybe I am terribly biased in this point too. But I know my city and can only speak for my city not the whole country.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:45
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Luisfe posted:What the gently caress are you on I say I can tell because they rotate as to whomever the leading party is. I don't trust noen of this shitter. big example AMLO he was PRI all his life. then switched. Fox PAN he is switching. a gently caress bazilion of people from PRI now on Morena. Calderon PAN now making his own. Not sure on politics on other parts but here. It is totally bullshit. Only good thing I see with current government so far is Mijis.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:53
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MikeStmria posted:I say I can tell because they rotate as to whomever the leading party is. I don't trust noen of this shitter. big example AMLO he was PRI all his life. then switched. Fox PAN he is switching. a gently caress bazilion of people from PRI now on Morena. Calderon PAN now making his own. PRI was a mishmash, but consistently, since the 80s has been on a privatizing, neoliberal, hard right kick. Sometimes socially left, but economically? As right as they come. PAN has been CONSISTENTLY hard right, pro-privatization, pro-clerical super hard right since the beginning, until now. They are ridiculously right wing. If you cannot tell that they are right leaning, that is a joke. PRD? Lol, nominally leftist, but allied with PAN now, which is a joke.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:57
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^^^ What Luisfe said PRI was pretty much the only game in town for a long time. AMLO was with the leftist breakouts of the PRD for a good while, and people would refer to PRI/PAN as the "PRIAN" because they were the conservative block and tended to vote together to shut the PRD out.
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Dec 7, 2019 02:58
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Dias posted:I mean...do you guys still talk to, like, regular people in Latin America, because that's pretty much exactly a template for what a proto-Bolsonaro voter is, much as people wanna believe they're all out in the streets gay bashing and whatever. It's the whole "all politicians suck" without really knowing much about politics. That's my impression on Mike too, this sort of antipolitics (politics bad, all politicians thieves) is really widespread, and it's not even that wrong in a latin american context. With this level of articulation, were he a real ideological conservative we'd be reading his posts about UN cultural marxist feminazis by now. The problem with a worldview where politics is all the same is that it includes no possibility of a future. Then the fascists come and promise to arrest dem' thieves and drain the swamp, and people somehow buy into it, despite being "against politics" like a week before. Were it not a tragedy it would also amuse me to no end that small business owners consistently self-own by going rabidly right-wing then wonder why their businesses are failing as everybody turns to buying exclusively from big discount supermarkets as a big part of society becomes objectively poorer because the redistributive policies are getting slashed.
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Dec 7, 2019 04:31
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bagual posted:The problem with a worldview where politics is all the same is that it includes no possibility of a future. You hit the nail on the head. When all politics are the same nothing really matters, so may as well vote for the right wingers out of spite, so those people get what’s coming to them.
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Dec 7, 2019 04:41
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bagual posted:That's my impression on Mike too, this sort of antipolitics (politics bad, all politicians thieves) is really widespread, and it's not even that wrong in a latin american context. With this level of articulation, were he a real ideological conservative we'd be reading his posts about UN cultural marxist feminazis by now. I can totally confirm this. While my voting goes to the least poo poo party. And ofc as politics to the ones that better fit our convinence. But you pretty much have defined what is going on currently in Mexico. One of my friends said to me when I asked him what he liked about AMLO: "I don't care if things work out or not for him, he says he is honest and will fix the broken stuff and I believe him. If it doesn't work out for him at least he did it with honesty and not with corruption like every other else" While I agree that I think that most politicians if not all are thieves. I also think that there are the worse (Like EPN and his 80 million (?) USD house) and some others that at least try to do some stuff. At least thats my experience with the diffrent types of local governments I have had the experience to live through.
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Dec 7, 2019 04:45
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uninterrupted posted:You hit the nail on the head. When all politics are the same nothing really matters, so may as well vote for the right wingers out of spite, so those people get what’s coming to them. Or to say it with an euphemism I've heard in real life, "voting for one's own interests".
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Dec 7, 2019 05:32
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Can we cover that paying people to go to school and study isn't even a loving leftist thing. loving Colombia does that (albeit not at that large of a scale). Paying people to go to school and study benefits capital more than anyone else.
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Dec 7, 2019 06:22
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ThanosWasRight posted:Can we cover that paying people to go to school and study isn't even a loving leftist thing. Yeah, there isn't much benefit in saddling young people with huge debt for the economy at large. It's just rent-seeking.
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Dec 7, 2019 07:21
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ThanosWasRight posted:Can we cover that paying people to go to school and study isn't even a loving leftist thing. It's the year of our Lord 2019, if it doesn't functionally transfer wealth to the top 10%, it's leftist. (I wish I was being facetious)
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Dec 7, 2019 07:27
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Yeah, there isn't much benefit in saddling young people with huge debt for the economy at large. It's just rent-seeking. Mexico doesn't have loans if you want to go to a public university. They charge you 1 peso per year, you just need to approve the exams. If you want to go on a private one that is different but still government do not finances that.
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Dec 7, 2019 09:05
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Study after study shows if you want people "off the dole", then you provide them with "low skill" jobs with high wages (like the stereotypical factory jobs in the US). Support things like unionization and experiments like state wages.
punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Dec 7, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2019 11:32
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punk rebel ecks posted:Study after study shows if you want people "off the sole", then you provide them with "low skill" jobs with high wages (like the stereotypical factory jobs in the US). Support things like unionization and experiments like state wages. This works particularly well because the money you pay these people comes back to the economy, whenever this kind of thing has happened in history, it's always produced a massive jumpstart of the economy and everyone benefits from that, including the capital class. Even social plans have that effect, because surprise surprise, an economy based on consumerism doesn't work if everyone's too poor to be consumers But no, gotta make number go up in the next quarter no matter what, also lazy people bootstraps etc gently caress capitalism, basically Also centrists because they always go "but but a few people will get benefits they don't deserve!"
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Dec 7, 2019 14:18
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Pochoclo posted:Also centrists because they always go "but but a few people will get benefits they don't deserve!" Centrists think it's better for one hundred innocent people to go hungry than for one guilty person to get a free meal.
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Dec 7, 2019 16:26
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Pochoclo posted:This works particularly well because the money you pay these people comes back to the economy, whenever this kind of thing has happened in history, it's always produced a massive jumpstart of the economy and everyone benefits from that, including the capital class. The spillover effects of consumer boosts are slightly different now because the logistical and production chains are global, so less of that money stays in your country.the money will eventually always go to the same culprits.its like this was the end goal of the current global economic system or something. Velocity of money is good short term, until the money reaches someone that just takes it out of your economy. Ironically, Marxist economists are at the forefront of this analysis, and the consumption Vs environmental damage studies and oh boy, things are not looking good. In conclusion, gently caress capitalism, and buckle up for eco-fascism.
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Dec 7, 2019 18:32
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vyelkin posted:Centrists think it's better for one hundred innocent people to go hungry than for one guilty person to get a free meal. I think its diferent to give something to a lot of people and a little percentageof bad people getting benefit of it, as giving something to a lot of people and the majority of the bad people getting a benefit from it.
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Dec 8, 2019 10:23
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MikeStmria posted:I think its diferent to give something to a lot of people and a little percentageof bad people getting benefit of it, as giving something to a lot of people and the majority of the bad people getting a benefit from it. it's really convenient how your talk of "majorities" can't be backed by any actual data except for your gut feeling and some dumb photos you probably found on a right wing facebook group because it's bullshit, the majority of people receiving benefits aren't "bad people" and the bad people are a very small percentage and however many times you say different what your political and economic philosophy does in real life is hurt others so some turd can get a bigger yacht/speedboat
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Dec 8, 2019 12:12
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Looking forward to the evidence that a significant number of “bad people” are wasting their welfare. Perhaps you have a few more photos of children mailing jokes?
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Dec 8, 2019 12:14
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MikeStmria posted:I think its diferent to give something to a lot of people and a little percentageof bad people getting benefit of it, as giving something to a lot of people and the majority of the bad people getting a benefit from it. So that's here is why I called you a bigot You don't know that. You admitted it yourself. And yet you talk like you do know, like you are 100% sure that's true. That is class prejudice and hate, and is what makes you a bigot, even if yeah, you are a polite one Also is worth nothing to admit you don't know something if you are going talk and act like you do right after admitting it
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Dec 8, 2019 12:27
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MikeStmria posted:I think its diferent to give something to a lot of people and a little percentageof bad people getting benefit of it, as giving something to a lot of people and the majority of the bad people getting a benefit from it. but enough about tax cuts
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Dec 8, 2019 13:19
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This is a nice read on the inside of poverty in Mexico, https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/09/inenglish/1518182586_392585.html and how they handle stuff. Here you can see that tye drop off school way before 18 https://www.inegi.org.mx/temas/educacion/ *This is Mexico's Statistic Agency This article is something from where people in poverty, with enphasis here in youth spend their money https://www.gob.mx/profeco/documentos/los-jovenes-y-las-finanzas?state=published *This is from the official government page Same as the one before, but with different wording and more condensed https://www.oinkoink.com.mx/noticias/gastan-mexicanos-resultados-inegi-2018/ In this next link you can see the report from the government on how low education goes in hand with drug abuse https://www.gob.mx/cms/uploads/attachment/file/477564/Informe_sobre_la_situacio_n_de_las_drogas_en_Me_xico_.pdf In both cases you can se that this are big numbers. In the drug point I must say that currently the government is doing a lot of campaign to provide help for people that wants it regarding drug abuse and in the last 2 months I have heard way more radio adds about how to get help than in like 10 years before, so props on this. Tackling this problem is a big thing to improve the QoL on poor people. I think this article tackles also the social programes and why they are not working (and probably won't) https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/opinion/rogelio-gomez-hermosillo-m/sirven-los-programas-sociales - This paper dislikes the current government but it addresses how the past government was handling this programs, most of them gone now. This one is kinda the same but from the current administracion PoV https://jornada.com.mx/2019/08/01/economia/023n2eco And finally here is the report from the office that is in charge of analazing how well or bad a social program is developing. https://www.coneval.org.mx/Evaluacion/Documents/Informes/Informe_ASM_2018-2019.pdf Some other notes: I didn't address a big issue we have in mexico from years ago until now that some one pointed out. If you say something the government dislikes and you are a jornalist(mainly), you are done. https://www.npr.org/2019/09/12/759882660/12-journalists-have-been-killed-in-mexico-this-year-the-worlds-highest-toll https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/mexico-rosario-piedra-ibarra-journalists-killed This two for reference. And this as an extra, few months agonational news agency spoke bad about AMLO, things happened lots of people got fired. https://www.proceso.com.mx/591782/en-notimex-despidos-ilegales-y-violentos Elias_Maluco posted:So that's here is why I called you a bigot Not knowing doesn't removes my ability to investigate and read on something that interests me. Todays idea of you having to be an expert in x subject to take opinion on it is stupid. As stupid as standing your ground on something you are not 100% sure of but you will defend by any means. Cat Mattress posted:but enough about tax cuts I could care less if they put more tax on stuff as long as those taxes are put to work and not into stupid things like this: https://www.sinembargo.mx/25-11-2019/3685136 And then magically his new refinary is viable because of this "HUGE" deposit. https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/descubren-yacimiento-gigante-de-petroleo-en-tabasco I am all for increasing taxes to people that has bigger incomes and less for people with less income. As an example in my work if I am registered with 100 pesos weekly I get 10 pesos taxed, if my salary ioncreases by 10 pesos then I will need to pay about 30 in tax. Then you have people with 2000 to 3000 paying the same tax because they are based of in tables and not actually in a percentage of your income. Call me from right if you want, it doesn't really bothers me. Also, I am talking on my specific situation about not giving it with out looking at if they need it (which funny enough they do with other things that are more of their convenience) in my country and to what I believe and has been my experience. Not as a general solve the world problem. But well my only experience on important things goes like this https://www.milenio.com/politica/amlo-organiza-votacion-mano-alzada-aprobar-tren-maya or this https://www.milenio.com/politica/amlo-respalda-votacion-mano-alzada-cancelar-metrobus Note: I hope you can read all of this since most is in spanish.
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Dec 9, 2019 06:14
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Also I just realized I am being a hipocrate with saying some people should get hosed for getting suppost as I am a good supporter of the, now canceled, new International Airport for Mexico City. Where he plead that was full of corruption and only a few will get richer and we will get no benefit and then saying no corruption was found but that he was gona build the airport where he wanted not where this 30% built airport was. I'm sorry I do sincerly apologize.
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Dec 9, 2019 06:17
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MikeStmria posted:
You are very dishonest. Im not talking about being a "specialist", Im talking about backing your big claims with facts, Im talking about presenting vague impressions and obvious prejudices has hard truths, admiting that you have nothing to back them, but keep trying to push those "truths" anyway Im done adressing your posts
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Dec 9, 2019 11:48
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MikeStmria posted:Not knowing doesn't removes my ability to investigate and read on something that interests me. Todays idea of you having to be an expert in x subject to take opinion on it is stupid. As stupid as standing your ground on something you are not 100% sure of but you will defend by any means. but you aren't investigating, you're just posting dumb pictures and saying obvious lies you aren't backing with data that's just bullshitting
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Dec 9, 2019 14:20
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