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OwlFancier posted:gently caress if I'm reading all that but is it anything other than "corbyn's a terrorist who wants to turn the labour party into the sturmabteilung" but written in a really cringey sad voice? Because it sure as poo poo looks like it. This is a completely useless thing to say.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:42
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c0burn posted:https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1204132816247762944?s=19 https://twitter.com/WAGchairperson/status/1204137740423577600
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Dec 9, 2019 21:43
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The Perfect Element posted:This is a completely useless thing to say. Read this, it's the best response you're going to get: Shyrka posted:Here, check this link out
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Dec 9, 2019 21:44
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The Perfect Element posted:This is a completely useless thing to say. I am asking you if it is functionally different from the same old shite I presume you've already heard before about "oh jeremy corbyn's hitler because he stood in a building that was on the same block as a guy who said israel was bad" except written like the author's really sad about it rather than self righteous? Because I assume you have read it and I don't want to invest hours of my life looking at it.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:44
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Shyrka posted:Corbyn would do all the stuff in the bottom section. oooh er
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Dec 9, 2019 21:45
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The Perfect Element posted:This is a completely useless thing to say. i opened that article to read, did read the first line "I want the last four years of my life back", noted the length of the article and closed it again
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Dec 9, 2019 21:46
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The Perfect Element posted:Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised. I got down to about this "Corbyn has a personal problematic history of racist associations and remarks" And then started scanning through for examples and it's entirety guilt by association bullshit, even down to the "he was laying wreathes for terrorists" poo poo Scan down a bit further and it's moaning about him writing the foreword to hobson Seems to be reheated dogshit to me chief, I mean I got down a bit further and it's quoting loving frances loving tweetman, can I ask what you found convincing about this dreck?
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Dec 9, 2019 21:48
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The Perfect Element posted:Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised. I was just asked about this over in CineD genchat, and this is what I posted over there: josh04 posted:I wrote out a longer response, but, like, this is basically a document produced by a cult for the consumption of other cult members:
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Dec 9, 2019 21:49
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OwlFancier posted:I am asking you if it is functionally different from the same old shite I presume you've already heard before about "oh jeremy corbyn's hitler because he stood in a building that was on the same block as a guy who said israel was bad" except written like the author's really sad about it rather than self righteous? Because I assume you have read it and I don't want to invest hours of my life looking at it. Well, in my opinion, yes. It does rehash some of the things we have heard before, but the overall argument that Corbyn, at best, tolerates a culture of anti semitism within the party is extremely powerful. And I say this as a dyed in the wool Corbynite. I mean, obviously I can't force you, but I really would encourage you to take half an hour at least to skim it. It is very convincingly and sympathetically written, and I just can't see how it can really be countered without resorting to the usual strawmen or ad hominem attacks. I don't want to have my mind changed, in fact it's extremely distressing. But there we are. I'd love it if someone could change my mind back again.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:49
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DesperateDan posted:Seems to be reheated dogshit to me chief, I mean I got down a bit further and it's quoting loving frances loving tweetman, can I ask what you found convincing about this dreck? Oh awesome, now ThomasPaine will read the whole thing, saving everyone else the trouble 
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Dec 9, 2019 21:51
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The Perfect Element posted:This is a completely useless thing to say. I agree. First things first the article is in better faith than I'd imagined, but after some initial warning signs this bit rather stuck out to me: quote:The word Zionist as a slur and the demonisation of any Jews who identify as such, no matter how humanitarian or supportive of Palestinian statehood, has blurred some very complicated lines as to demonise the vast majority of the Jewish community, often with little understanding of political or religious Zionism. The inherently suggests that there's no concept of Zionism that isn't racist to oppose, which indeed means anyone opposed to any iteration of Zionism is therefore anti-Semitic. It's perhaps not deliberate, as I read through so far, but does imply a tendency towards implying anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic. Which, uh, makes many Jewish people in the UK anti-Semites, by definition. Reading the rest of the article now.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:52
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The Perfect Element posted:Well, in my opinion, yes. It does rehash some of the things we have heard before, but the overall argument that Corbyn, at best, tolerates a culture of anti semitism within the party is extremely powerful. And I say this as a dyed in the wool Corbynite. No-one can make you better at critical thinking other than you. Maybe try describing specifically what allegations against Corbyn you now find convincing?
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Dec 9, 2019 21:53
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Tesseraction posted:Reading the rest of the article now. ngl the good faith evaporates well before the end.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:53
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It's the "convincingly and sympathetically written" I take issue with because I would describe it as "excessively verbose for the purpose of being manipulative" and it does not work on me. You've been linked a far more concise document showing corbyn clearly does not like antisemitism and works to oppose it. I find it infinitely more compelling than that histrionic shite.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:54
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The Perfect Element posted:Well, in my opinion, yes. It does rehash some of the things we have heard before, but the overall argument that Corbyn, at best, tolerates a culture of anti semitism within the party is extremely powerful. And I say this as a dyed in the wool Corbynite. So if it's tolerated why are they suspending and kicking out all of the idiots who keep saying all the anti-Semitic poo poo? It's not tolerated, it doesn't exist structurally within the party. The things that keep happening are Palestinian solidarity gestures which piss off the Zionists and gets them to insist on the existance of an anti-semitism culture when only an anti-Zionist one is consistently present and dumbass people being anti-semitic and getting canned for it.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:55
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I skimmed that absurdly long article and it is extremely heavy on "doesn't like Israel" with a side of "friends with terrorists". It's definitely true that Corbyn has chosen to engage with people involved in various Palestinian groups who have problematic views, the question is does that make him an antisemite. I'll go out on a limb and say that actively lobbying for Jewish rights in the UK on multiple occasions over decades makes it hard to take this reading. I'll admit the article using the Hajo Meyer event against Corbyn because Corbyn isn't also a holocaust survivor boiled my piss enough that I stopped reading at that point because it's an insane argument. They also heavily imply that really Hajo Meyer is probably an antisemite as well by describing his activism as a "grey area", which is loving disgusting.
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Dec 9, 2019 21:55
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The Perfect Element posted:Well, in my opinion, yes. It does rehash some of the things we have heard before, but the overall argument that Corbyn, at best, tolerates a culture of anti semitism within the party is extremely powerful. And I say this as a dyed in the wool Corbynite. if I wanted to spend half an hour reading "Corbyn bad" tweets I'd go to ThomasPaine's post history
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Dec 9, 2019 21:57
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https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1204065118683828225?s=19
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Dec 9, 2019 21:58
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Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal?
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Dec 9, 2019 22:00
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It absolutely tickles me to find out that Corbyn knows about the "Maoist bicycle" comment.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:00
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Bardeh posted:Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal? Report her to the electoral commission and find out!
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Dec 9, 2019 22:02
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Bardeh posted:Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal? Only if they're an official in some capacity or presenting the advice as official guidance. OwlFancier posted:Report her to the electoral commission and find out! I'm pretty sure we've both made the same joke in this thread.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:03
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namesake posted:I'm pretty sure we've both made the same joke in this thread. Yes but they're tories and therefore it's funny. Also I don't recall making that joke. Still definitely try to get tories in trouble with the law whenever possible. They'll do the same to you, after all!
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Dec 9, 2019 22:04
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Yes, but what does @factcheckUK say?
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Dec 9, 2019 22:05
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Bardeh posted:Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal? The oldest trick in the book. The GOP practically airdrops flyers on black communities telling them to go vote on wednesday across the pond, its a tradition at this point
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Dec 9, 2019 22:06
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https://twitter.com/Nimble_Pumpkin/status/1204070027143475200 lol
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Dec 9, 2019 22:07
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Yeah we just made food banks for shits and giggles. Piss off.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:08
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JordanKai posted:It absolutely tickles me to find out that Corbyn knows about the "Maoist bicycle" comment. The "Maoist bicycle" comment reminds me of Fox News saying Obama performed a "Hezbollah style" fist bump with Michelle.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:09
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Bardeh posted:Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal? Tell them that it is illegal and you’ve reported them to the police and the Electoral Commission (I don’t know if it is actually illegal)
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Dec 9, 2019 22:09
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Edit: didnt read all the article.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:11
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If foodbanks keep giving food to poor people who can't be relied upon then there will be a foodbanking crisis and a foodbanking crash and it will be all the poors' fault!
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Dec 9, 2019 22:11
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Lmao https://twitter.com/tomcoates/status/1204070031715262464?s=19
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Dec 9, 2019 22:11
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Bardeh posted:Just posted in my local Facebook group. Surely this is illegal? I mean, Remainers were doing this to troll 'stupid' Leavers in 2016, and I don't recall anything coming of it.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:14
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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The Perfect Element posted:Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised. I read it. Its pretty much entirely the same things that have been discussed ad nauseum (the mural, the wreath, Press TV). What stood out to me was the lengthy section on what she labels 'token Jews'. She says "As with any community, there will be legitimate disagreement and dissent on the topic of what is and isn’t discrimination — and it is always important not to dismiss minority voices". Then she proceeds to immediately dismiss the voices of anyone who disagrees with her as a token jew, including the actual Holocaust survivor. It reads to me like someone who has emotionally invested herself into a narrative and everything exists to serve that narrative.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:14
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https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1204147563001241600?s=19
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Dec 9, 2019 22:16
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The Perfect Element posted:Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised. If you think Labour are antisemitic or tolerant of antisemitism you really shouldn't vote for Labour. Why would you vote for an antisemitic party? However, if you think Labour are an antisemitic party you should go to your nearest bathroom, lift the toilet lid, shove your head into the bowl and flush a couple of times because I'm to lazy to do so myself but it's the least you deserve. It's clearly politically motivated to derail a potentially transformative government from happening.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:19
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forkboy84 posted:If you think Labour are antisemitic or tolerant of antisemitism you really shouldn't vote for Labour. Why would you vote for an antisemitic party? Be careful that their head doesn't get stuck in the space between the bowl and the wall.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:20
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The Perfect Element posted:Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised. This is a very, very long article and honestly I'm not in the mood to refute it point by point. But I'll pick out a few from scanning through. Usual caveats, I'm not Jewish and this is a piece which is obviously written from a Jewish viewpoint. Yes, anti-semitism exists in society. Yes, it exists in the Labour party, which is made up of people from society. However the proportion of anti-semitic views in Labour are no more prevalent than society in general and most likely much lower. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/smoke-without-fire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/ Labour, and Corbyn in particular, have a long history of combatting racism. However by the very nature of supporting various different minorities at various times means you can never escape getting caught between them. If you support Palestein, then yes sometimes you will be on stage with people who are against Israel. For instance: quote:In 2010, Corbyn hosted an event on Holocaust Memorial Day titled “Never Again For Anyone, From Auschwitz to Gaza”. At the event, Jewish Auschwitz survivor and anti-Zionist Hajo Meyer, who died in 2014 aged 90, compared Israeli policy to the Nazi regime. The main talk was entitled: The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes. While it is fair to say that it is a huge grey area when it comes to the involvement of a Holocaust survivor, Corbyn himself cannot claim such a history. The meeting was also addressed by phone from Gaza by Palestinian activist, Haidar Eid, who reportedly said: “The world was absolutely wrong to think that Nazism was defeated in 1945. Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims.” On this one occasion, Corbyn issued an extraordinarily rare apology, stating: “In the past, in pursuit of justice for the Palestinian people and peace in Israel/Palestine, I have on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject. I apologise for the concerns and anxiety that this has caused.” I can only see that being listed as 'evidence' of Corbyn's anti-semitism if you are trying to come at this from the perspective of Jews being 'more important' and overriding the interests of other minorities. quote:The word Zionist as a slur and the demonisation of any Jews who identify as such, no matter how humanitarian or supportive of Palestinian statehood, has blurred some very complicated lines as to demonise the vast majority of the Jewish community, often with little understanding of political or religious Zionism. Conflation of anti-zionism (supporting Israel) with anti-semitism. And again, insisting that anyone who is anti-zionist must want the complete destruction of Israel rather than them to just follow international rules. I'm also not a fan of the othering and 'AsAJew' stuff in that article. quote:People claiming sudden Jewish heritage in order to support Jeremy Corbyn are so prevalent now that they have earned the nickname “AsaJews”. This is taking a dodgy poll and generalising it out to the entire Jewish population, then claiming anyone who disagrees is gaslighting people. It is also disingenuous about Jewish Voice for Labour while not mentioning that Jewish Labour doesn't require members to actually be Jewish, or that the Jewish Chronicle has been done by the IPSO for printing false stories about Labour members https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/ipso-upholds-labour-activist-s-accuracy-complaint-against-jc-1.493698 Overall while I can respect the opinions my impression is that this piece has a perspective/slant of Jews being 'done down' and a worrying tendency to dismiss the opinions of left wing Jews. Rather than a multilateral approach to anti-racism, it reads like someone who has convinced themselves that everyone is against them specifically. And it doesn't address the wider context of racist views in society or the fact that realistically the constant media exposure risks turning off or radicalising those in Labour who should be natural allies against anti-semitism in the far right. https://twitter.com/davidgraeber/status/1201950245804027904 Also, it quotes Weetman. Soo its a little hard to take in good faith. Fake Edit: Jesus this is a lot of young brexiteers in the QT audience.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:20
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These debates are an absolute shitshow, and the Tories have done pretty well at damage limitation. The Tories put the blandest representative possible, and all the lesser parties duly spend the proceedings attacking Labour, leaving the Tories relatively unscathed. The host literally just asked Angela Rayner "As the party of big state, would you nationalise sausages?" Answers Me fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Dec 9, 2019 |
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Dec 9, 2019 22:21
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I think perhaps this thread was the wrong place to come. The various replies, aggressive, snarky or otherwise, may well be valid, but assume a fairly comprehensive familiarity with so many of these allegations already that for a relative layman like me, there's not much value. The responses here boil down to 'this is loving stupid because we know it is'. If anyone can direct me to a robust and detailed defence which encapsulates most or all of the issues highlighted in the article, I'd be grateful. This is an election that will be lost or won by convincing doubters, not shouting at them, so if I can find something which will turn people into labour voters, then that's a good thing.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:24
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