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The REAL Goobusters posted:I don’t even know if you’re trolling or not Wolfsheim posted:Looking forward to the "shut up nerd idiot time travel isnt real they did a psychic squid it's all magic" response from the OP though! GoGoGadgetChris posted:I wish this show's fans were as civil as its detractors
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Dec 10, 2019 02:37
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Rorschach was insane first and a fascist second.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:37
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Weedle posted:Mostly it feels weird to me because the ability to send messages through time via Dr. M seems like it should be a way bigger deal. Like, if it were possible, you’d think someone would have realized it at any point in the last sixty years. It is a HUGE DEAL. It only works because Jon’s consciousness is simultaneously in both places. He is basically breaking some fundamental laws of physics as we understand them because he is a, for lack of a better term “mental wormhole”.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:38
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okay here's a question: how much of this episode's failures can be put on the directing not adequately communicating the lack of delineation between the various events in Jon's life? the script really plays that aspect up, but visually there's nothing interesting done with it; part of me thinks it's because "This Extraordinary Being" was the episode about time blending together, but there are other visual tools which could be used for the same effect, so it feels like a wasted opportunity
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Dec 10, 2019 02:39
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:How are people not getting this? If he's experiencing it all at once then wouldn't he have been more human from the original transformation or at least after it's revealed that he can't see the future due to Veidts fuckery instead of nuclear war? 
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Dec 10, 2019 02:39
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Wolfsheim posted:Looking forward to the "shut up nerd idiot time travel isnt real they did a psychic squid it's all magic" response from the OP though! For real though, my point is, people are getting hung up on poo poo that really doesn't matter at all. The mechanics of the fantasy are pointless. You're not a better person for understanding them. And if subverting them helps the story, what does it matter?
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Dec 10, 2019 02:39
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Wolfsheim posted:Yeah I think this is kinda what I was getting at. He knows he will fall for Laurie and leave his first girlfriend, but he does it when he meets Laurie not years earlier because he knows eventually he will fall for her and retroactively make that decision. Him being in love with Angela, a person he doesn't know, because he will fall in love with her ten years later doesn't really...follow how he lived his entire life before this? There is no "will." There is no "before" there is no "after" there is no "later" there is no "earlier." He understands that these concepts exist for normal people and communicates using them for their benefit, but he does not personally experience them. This is true in the comic, and it's just as true in the show.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:40
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HppyCmpr posted:The best thing to come out of this thread is all the posters who are bad at watching TV shows pointing their fingers at other posters and screeching they're bad at watching TV shows when they don't agree with them. I don't understand how people have enough free time to 'hate watch' anything. Anyways show is awesome and I just hope HBO will continue to take chances with shows like this. Can't wait to see how the season/series (??) ends. As much as I may like the original watchmen comics, it's amazing to see how Lindelof has hosed with everyone expectation that I might possibly have of a sequel.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:42
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quote:After viewing Citizen Kane, a friend asked Orson Welles how anyone could know Kane’s last words when he died alone.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:44
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Lol
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Dec 10, 2019 02:45
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Arist posted:For real though, my point is, people are getting hung up on poo poo that really doesn't matter at all. The mechanics of the fantasy are pointless. You're not a better person for understanding them. And if subverting them helps the story, what does it matter? Yikes, a lot to unpack here.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:46
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Arglebargle III posted:Yikes, a lot to unpack here. ???????????
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Dec 10, 2019 02:47
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I always thought Dr. Manhattan experienced events from a 4th dimensional plane. Doesn't he explicitly say that in the book? Don't physicists explain from a higher dimensional plane you could look at your entire life as a series of events all taking place at once but you couldn't actually change any of it? Lindelof decided to frame a love story in that idea and I enjoyed it.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:48
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Rosie: MOM! There's a colored man walking on our pool! Angela: What color is he, Rosie? Rosie: Blue!
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Dec 10, 2019 02:49
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I think something notable is that Calhattan sounds surprised when Angela asks him if he can ask Reeves a question and he answers in the affirmative. Like, nobody ever thought of this before and he didn't really think about it either because he's much more of a "walk across the Sun" kind of guy than a "let's figure out exactly how my powers work" kind of guy.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:50
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This story always irks me since the literal first scene of the movie is someone running into Kane's room to help him as he's dying.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:52
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god that flashback cut when veidt says "you have a profound lack of imagination" is so bad, it doesn't add anything, that's a moment that hppened less than half an hour before this point in the episode so you don't really need the reminder, and whereas those cuts can be justified as flashbacks in the context of Wade, they don't work in Jon's context because it's the one time it's happened in 30 minutes
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Dec 10, 2019 02:53
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Arglebargle III posted:Third and worst from a thematic and storytelling standpoint, it takes the core of the character and chucks it in the garbage in service of... what exactly? The evil plan? Dr. M is not a family man. He can't be this character, his core identity is an outsider, receding from the world of humanity as certainly as a photon radiating into space. He's both godlike and remote. The plot probably would have worked if Dr. Manhattan absolutely didn't give a poo poo about the events in Tulsa. As other people have said, this isn't his story and he doesn't belong. But for some reason they wanted to have Dr. Manhattan be the crux of the thing, so he's gotta end up in Tulsa some how. And because modern television can't resists a plot twist or an anguished moment for its heroine, it has to be someone personally connected to the lead. Like her husband and adopted father of three! Only, that isn't who Dr. Manhattan is as a character. Cal fundamentally is not Dr. Manhattan because he's not tormented by loneliness. I think that's why he does what he did in this show though. He's tormented by loneliness and he tries to fight that. He wants to fall in love and does, but can't truly connect because of who he is. So he goes to such drastic measures as effectively cutting off his Dr. Manhattan-ness to try to make it work. You're right that Cal isn't tormented by loneliness, it's because he teamed up with Adrian Veidt to literally alter his brain so that he could be not-lonely for a few years.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:53
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Kane’s butler was there when he died. We don’t see him in the death scene but there’s a scene later where he’s recounting it to a reporter.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:54
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Arist posted:For real though, my point is, people are getting hung up on poo poo that really doesn't matter at all. The mechanics of the fantasy are pointless. You're not a better person for understanding them. And if subverting them helps the story, what does it matter? "Just turn off your brain and enjoy it" for Watchmen, hahaha goddamn man SpiderHyphenMan posted:There is no "will." There is no "before" there is no "after" there is no "later" there is no "earlier." He understands that these concepts exist for normal people and communicates using them for their benefit, but he does not personally experience them. This is true in the comic, and it's just as true in the show. But...he does experience them. He gets angry when he thinks he gave his ex cancer. He accidentally forgets to give air Laurie breathable atmosphere because he's preoccupied. He is sad when Laurie confesses to cheating, and surprised that her family revelations have made him rethink humanity. He may know he is about to receive this information because he isn't experiencing time linearly but he still reacts as a man would in the moment when it is happening. Its distinctly different from knowing the information ahead of time and preparing yourself emotionally to act upon it ten years in advance. I guess I would say they got close but didn't really pin it down? It seems nitpicky but when you retroactively make him the lynchpin of the entire plot it's hard not to notice.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:56
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Tender Bender posted:I think that's why he does what he did in this show though. He's tormented by loneliness and he tries to fight that. He wants to fall in love and does, but can't truly connect because of who he is. So he goes to such drastic measures as effectively cutting off his Dr. Manhattan-ness to try to make it work. “If being Dr Manhattan is making you unhappy, why not just stop being Dr Manhattan” is a pretty profound question with a complicated answer worth exploring.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:58
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Wolfsheim posted:"Just turn off your brain and enjoy it" for Watchmen, hahaha goddamn man This feels like an incredibly disingenuous way to interpret what I said dude
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Dec 10, 2019 02:58
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ElNarez posted:god that flashback cut when veidt says "you have a profound lack of imagination" is so bad, it doesn't add anything, that's a moment that hppened less than half an hour before this point in the episode so you don't really need the reminder, and whereas those cuts can be justified as flashbacks in the context of Wade, they don't work in Jon's context because it's the one time it's happened in 30 minutes Reinforcing how Dr Manhattan experiences time (he’s laughing simultaneously both at Veidt and Angela) I think only seems unnecessary if you’ve read the comics.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:59
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Brilliant episode and handles the difficulty of "time travel" admirably well. Very excited for the final episode, though I'm sad it will end and a second season will not be anything like this one. "Enjoy your loving cake."Adun posted:I don't understand how people have enough free time to 'hate watch' anything. Goons gonna goon
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Dec 10, 2019 03:00
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Lmao uhhhhhh yeah whatever you say man I have been lurking this thread for awhile and you always crack me up since you hate watch a show. Who the hell has time for that? Also the whole mystery box statements about this show make no sense. I know J.J. Abhams once did a mystery box Ted talk and dudes have now always tried to reference that critique of the Lost storytelling method..but dude this show basically explains everything, hell people are guessing poo poo correctly about the plot. No one makes you watch a show, just walk away ese.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:02
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:“If being Dr Manhattan is making you unhappy, why not just stop being Dr Manhattan” is a pretty profound question with a complicated answer worth exploring. But the only reason he loves her is because he is Dr. Manhattan and saw that he eventually would aaaaauuuuugggghhhhhh the whole idea could've been done better and still undercuts the racial-injustice-as-explored-through-black-law-enforcement thing it was doing before this that actually seemed to be driving towards something (well, something other than blue ex machina) They also don't actually show why she would love him back (since it just cuts to later in the relationship) so it still feels incomplete but I could see them doing something with that in the finale so I won't count that out yet.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:04
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The things people are saying are "inconsistent" aren't even inconsistent with the show itself, they're supposedly inconsistent with the original comic. So what? Why can't this just be a new take on the story? Something riffing off the old comic but putting a new spin on it? Nobody can actually loving tell me why it matters to this story if Doctor Manhattan's portrayal in two different works, in different mediums, made thirty years apart, is slightly different.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:05
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:“If being Dr Manhattan is making you unhappy, why not just stop being Dr Manhattan” is a pretty profound question with a complicated answer worth exploring. this is where you have to pair the episode with the veidt sequence, because as always it illustrates the theme of the episode, and the theme is "can you escape who you are?", where "who you are" also touches on the past, history and how it's told, truth, and, in specifics, the history of white supremacy in America
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Dec 10, 2019 03:07
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DangerZoneDelux posted:I have been lurking this thread for awhile and you always crack me up since you hate watch a show. Who the hell has time for that? Also the whole mystery box statements about this show make no sense. I know J.J. Abhams once did a mystery box Ted talk and dudes have now always tried to reference that critique of the Lost storytelling method..but dude this show basically explains everything, hell people are guessing poo poo correctly about the plot. It’s pretty cool you should try it sometime
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Dec 10, 2019 03:09
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Wolfsheim posted:But the only reason he loves her is because he is Dr. Manhattan and saw that he eventually would But this reads like you’re trying to say point A leads to point B (well in this case point B leads to point A) when the comics and the show (“I’ve always loved you”) is saying that for Dr. Manhattan point A and point B (and every point in his life) exist simultaneously
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Dec 10, 2019 03:10
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Martman posted:I think this misses a lot of how Dr. Manhattan is characterized as a weird manchild though. But if he could change it, it wouldn't be the future. Its the chicken and egg problem. The show did cover that.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:12
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Wolfsheim posted:But...he does experience them. He gets angry when he thinks he gave his ex cancer. He accidentally forgets to give air Laurie breathable atmosphere because he's preoccupied. He is sad when Laurie confesses to cheating, and surprised that her family revelations have made him rethink humanity. He observes chronology and is able to discuss events in those terms. He doesn't experience it. When Dr. Manhattan tells someone "here's what's going to happen," it means the same drat thing as when he says "here's what happened." To him, both those things, and indeed all the things, are "what's happening right "now."" There are no memories for Doctor Manhattan.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:15
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:He observes chronology and is able to discuss events in those terms. He doesn't experience it. But like...he does experience things. He reacts to things. He's not a completely unknowable godhead passively observing all time at once (sidenote: Alan Moore does this in Promothea when some of the characters die and eventually enter heaven and it's cool as gently caress). I mean I guess he kinda is in this? But in the original comic he is absolutely a lonely dude who chases hotties and becomes increasingly isolated by his situation, regardless of what order hes experiencing these moments in.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:22
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i cant stop thinking about the post that said LG's arc is done and we wont see him again. did i miss some explicit sign that he peaced out or is it just the same brain type that was certain Jeremy Irons was Dr. M during the first few episodes despite how dumb and bad that would have been in context?Wolfsheim posted:(sidenote: Alan Moore does this in Promothea when some of the characters die and eventually enter heaven and it's cool as gently caress). Promethea was awesome. If watchmen succeeds, I'm really looking forward to the STARZ adaptation with Kurt Sutter as SR. a very large fish fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 03:27
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Adun posted:But this reads like you’re trying to say point A leads to point B (well in this case point B leads to point A) when the comics and the show (“I’ve always loved you”) is saying that for Dr. Manhattan point A and point B (and every point in his life) exist simultaneously But then in the context of the show he should still be in love with Laurie too but he was unwilling to change for her? Or he didn't actually care about Laurie I guess? See even setting aside the comic its messy as gently caress and either he grows as a character to want different things or they couldn't figure out how to write a static timeless god character consistently and should have gone a different direction with it.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:27
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Wolfsheim posted:But like...he does experience things. He reacts to things. He's not a completely unknowable godhead passively observing all time at once (sidenote: Alan Moore does this in Promothea when some of the characters die and eventually enter heaven and it's cool as gently caress). He is reacting to everything at the same time, all the time. He is not experiencing the transition from sex to arguing to fighting to being told to leave. He's experiencing all four at once, in addition to millions of other moments. As such, his reactions aren't determined by a linear set of events. "We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings."
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Dec 10, 2019 03:28
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Wolfsheim posted:But then in the context of the show he should still be in love with Laurie too but he was unwilling to change for her? Or he didn't actually care about Laurie I guess? That's exactly what they did. The entire episode was about why and how he accomplished this.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:29
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Didn't like the episode very much, it's the first one of the series where I was checking how much time was left instead of just being into it. Time travel stuff works a lot better when you don't spell out exactly how it works because it fundamentally cannot make sense, and then this episode spent most of it's time telling us exactly how its time travel was supposed to work, so that kinda sucked.Adun posted:Reinforcing how Dr Manhattan experiences time (he’s laughing simultaneously both at Veidt and Angela) I think only seems unnecessary if you’ve read the comics.
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Dec 10, 2019 03:32
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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on the rewatch, they do use it a bunch later, but, again, visually it's a clumsy way of doing it
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Dec 10, 2019 03:35
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I'm mad this episode didn't include I'm Blue (Da Ba Dee).
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Dec 10, 2019 04:14
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