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packetmantis posted:I'm mad this episode didn't include I'm Blue (Da Ba Dee). Seems like more of a Snyder move tbh
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Dec 10, 2019 04:25
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they did that really obvious flashback stuff in that Looking Glass episode too. like, the show is only 60 something minutes long I know what I saw guys.
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Dec 10, 2019 04:33
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MechaSeinfeld posted:they did that really obvious flashback stuff in that Looking Glass episode too. like, the show is only 60 something minutes long I know what I saw guys. It was so dumbfuck obvious in this episode that I think there must be some stylistic purpose to them other than reminding the audience what just happened. I just don't know what it is.
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Dec 10, 2019 04:36
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Dr Manhattan decides to go to Vietnam 
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Dec 10, 2019 05:05
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Wolfsheim posted:But then in the context of the show he should still be in love with Laurie too but he was unwilling to change for her? Or he didn't actually care about Laurie I guess? In the show all that's really been said/shown is that Jon and Laurie were together, they broke up, but sometimes she still misses him. In the comic their relationship began when he cheated on his wife with her, while she was underage. Then she was basically a kept woman, used by the government to keep their best weapon docile and somewhat tied to human concerns. And they broke up when she cheated on him with Dan Dreiberg. It never was much of a romance, and its not made clear how much he really did care about her.
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Dec 10, 2019 05:37
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Lord Krangdar posted:In the show all that's really been said/shown is that Jon and Laurie were together, they broke up, but sometimes she still misses him. Well, he cared enough to triple-handedly run a train on her.
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Dec 10, 2019 05:48
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tarlibone posted:Well, he cared enough to triple-handedly run a train on her. If that’s not true love idk what is
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Dec 10, 2019 05:54
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tea tbh
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Dec 10, 2019 06:14
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beanieson posted:Dr Manhattan decides to go to Vietnam I know how that is.
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Dec 10, 2019 06:24
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beanieson posted:Dr Manhattan decides to go to Vietnam That's the same reason my father went to Vietnam.
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Dec 10, 2019 06:24
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Doc Manhattan is basically a Tralfamadorian, an alien species that appears in several Kurt Vonnegut novels, they're 4 dimensional beings to whom all time occurs simultaneously, from their perspective everything is inevitable and the concept of 'change' is absurd, everything is in the constant process of going from point A to Z where all the points in the middle are known in advance. One of the bits that appear in the novels is that the Tralfmadorians have intimate knowledge of how the universe ends, one of their members experiements with a new type of starship fuel and accidentally destroys the entire universe, when asked by a human character "why doesn't he just not do it then?" they're flabbergasted by the question, this is just a thing that happens, that it happens in the future or in the past has no bearing on the fact it is a thing that 'is'. But of course Vonnegut is a bit of joker, I think another way to look at Manhattan's "lack of involvement" is that his consciousness is seperated from his actions, the same way it is for every human, we do things and then we come up with a narattive that explains them and makes it all seem like our little cartesian consciousness agent is pulling the strings behind our choices but in actuality the science is pretty murky and our brains our capable of 'making choices' long before our conscious perception kicks into gear. So, maybe this is just how it is for Manhattan, he sees events unfolding but this doesn't necessarily mean 'he' really has agency. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 07:50
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The real issue is that it was filmed in such a way as to show that he had opportunities to intervene but - were it any other character - chose not to. Up to and including standing motionless in front of the cannon for a few seconds instead of destroying it. Contrast that with their fight earlier in the episode, where we knew it was coming but Angela was too fired up to see it in the show. The direction of that whole sequence was sloppy. just another fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 08:10
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Weedle posted:That guy really does have a huge dick. I can't stop thinking about it. Fun fact: Spartacus, the show where almost everyone had to hang dong, used proestethics with most of the cast.
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Dec 10, 2019 08:13
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Doc Manhattan is basically a Tralfamadorian, an alien species that appears in several Kurt Vonnegut novels, they're 4 dimensional beings to whom all time occurs simultaneously, from their perspective everything is inevitable and the concept of 'change' is absurd, everything is in the constant process of going from point A to Z where all the points in the middle are known in advance. My favorite thing about Slaughterhouse Five is how the Tralfmadorians are like "Free will? What? In all the universe, only Humans pretend Free Will exists." I really like making a distinction between Agency and Free Will, which most people conflate. Manhattan has Agency in the moment but no Free Will to change his actions outside Time. He will always make the choice within his Agency that he was going to make in the moment given the circumstances, which are frozen in Time ever unchanging, and so his choice never changes, because its always the same choice at the same time for the same reasons. Again, its the chicken and egg problem. If Manhattan sees himself dying, he has to let himself die, or else he contradicts his own vision of the future. He has to let it happen to not cause a time paradox.
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Dec 10, 2019 08:13
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Zaphod42 posted:My favorite thing about Slaughterhouse Five is how the Tralfmadorians are like "Free will? What? In all the universe, only Humans pretend Free Will exists." It's a fair distinction, I should have used 'free will' but I felt it wasn't adding much clarity to my argument; basically if free will is an illusion then agency is just a perceived property we attribute to things that are sufficiently human. Or maybe in a more manhattenesque way to phrase it, the difference between a hydrogen atom and a human being is that a human being can tell a story about why he did certain things, but otherwise both are just being governed deterministically by the laws of physics.
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Dec 10, 2019 08:25
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Zaphod42 posted:
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Dec 10, 2019 08:26
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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I liked the episode. Not my favorite, but I thought it was pretty good. BUT, there were a couple moments where even I rolled my eyes a little (not to mention the goddamn in-ep flashback cuts AGAIN), and I just knew this thread was gonna cleave right in two. I will say that I absolutely was not on board with Angela communicating with Will through Doc (why did she even ask that question anyway if she knew she was asking it ten years ago???). As someone pointed out earlier, that process should be a pretty big deal, but if it happens just on either side of the tunnel, I guess there wasn't any opportunity for anybody to have taken advantage of it? He seems pretty confused about doing it when she asks, like nobody's ever thought to try that before, which I think was already pointed out also. It's all about the timing of the request. I'm all the way on board and can't wait to see how the finale goes. And honestly, at this point, I'm not all that concerned about whether they Kerri Strug the landing or not, because I think this is a show that will only deepen on rewatches. There's a lot going on, and this is our first pass at it, so there's bound to be some wailing and gnashing of teeth, but I really can see it benefiting from some distance and re-analyzing it as a whole as opposed to just reacting to whatever weird thing happens each week in real time. Anyway, my favorite moment this week was in the post-credits. The game warden asks if Veidt wants another book, Veidt says no, he likes this one, the game warden asks why, Veidt says, "You wouldn't understand." The game warden turns to leave. Veidt sniffs, desperately, breaking, reaching out, says, "It's about loneliness." The game warden drops the bucket, turns back. Talks to him. Actually talks to him. If only ever so briefly. There's just such an acute pathos in that moment. I loving love it. Also, he says billions, not millions. The captions are wrong. Enjoy your loving cake.
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Dec 10, 2019 08:29
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Zaphod42 posted:Again, its the chicken and egg problem. If Manhattan sees himself dying, he has to let himself die, or else he contradicts his own vision of the future. He has to let it happen to not cause a time paradox. Emphasis added, because this is exactly why he's such a frustrating character. As other people have said, he's not a god, he's an observer. But he has agency, he just chooses not to use it. Ever. All he has to do to liberate himself from this weird hell he's in is make a loving choice that doesn't comply with what he sees as the future. But he won't and that's not who he is and I'm just speaking as a normal non-inter-dimensional human bean, so what the hell do I know. Skitz fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 08:48
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Skitz posted:Emphasis added, because this is exactly why he's such a frustrating character. As other people have said, he's not a god, he's an observer. But he has agency, he just chooses not to use it. Ever. All he has to do to liberate himself from this weird hell he's in is make a loving choice that doesn't comply with what he sees as the future. But he won't and that's not who he is and I'm just speaking as a normal non-inter-dimensional human bean, so what the hell do I know. He's behaving in the way he was always going to behave with the information he has. Yeah he's that lame.
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Dec 10, 2019 08:53
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Skitz posted:Emphasis added, because this is exactly why he's such a frustrating character. As other people have said, he's not a god, he's an observer. But he has agency, he just chooses not to use it. Ever. All he has to do to liberate himself from this weird hell he's in is make a loving choice that doesn't comply with what he sees as the future. But he won't and that's not who he is and I'm just speaking as a normal non-inter-dimensional human bean, so what the hell do I know. He doesn't have agency. He's a fictional character who has read the whole book / seen the whole show. He's unable to change anything about his life as he can't reach into our reality, tap Lindelof on the shoulder and get him to reshoot the scene. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 09:45
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Wolfsheim posted:^^^ hahaha Lindlof is quoted on the back blurb of my 10 year old book edition calling it one of the best stories of all time.
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Dec 10, 2019 10:12
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So who reckons looking glass is going to be hiding amongst the 7k next ep and "gone rogue" to try and sabotage the whole thing? Should be interesting setting a Laurie/Jon reunion as well. Hoping Lube Man comes sliding in during the climax too
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Dec 10, 2019 11:01
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LG wasn't down with the 7K but his main beef should be with Veidt; if Veidt returns to earth from Europa on the finale I can easily see LG playing the confession tape on mass media, sort of a "gaze upon my works ye mighty and despair" moment, which is par for the course.
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Dec 10, 2019 11:04
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Jon it does have agency, which is why standing in front of the science gun is so weird. If he saw himself being killed in the future, it would have to be in a way that was unavoidable to Jon at that moment. Not easily avoidable.
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Dec 10, 2019 12:20
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They didn't even have to fight the 7th, they couldve just teleported away. I wonder why veidt couldnt just overthrow/kill the game warden?
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Dec 10, 2019 12:34
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can't be bothered rewatching the ep but I remember manhattan saying 'destroy' instead of 'killed' so I hope he just comes back completely fine at the start of the finale
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Dec 10, 2019 12:51
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Arglebargle III posted:Jon it does have agency, which is why standing in front of the science gun is so weird. If he saw himself being killed in the future, it would have to be in a way that was unavoidable to Jon at that moment. Not easily avoidable. Jon's omniscience has always been really inconsistent in this way. In the comics, he reacts with surprise and shock when learning that he causes cancer, later explaining that this is because his surprised reaction was also predetermined. However, he never reacts with surprise at anything else, so I guess he is predetermined to sometimes act natural and sometimes be really smug about knowing everything in advance.
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Dec 10, 2019 13:08
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You don't have to be able to see the future to know not to stand directly in front of a tachyon cannon with your back to it. That's just being a loving idiot.
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Dec 10, 2019 14:14
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a man in a rorschach mask zapping doctor manhattan to his doom is too good and too ironic to pass up, ten years as a human taught him the value of a tidy bit of dramatic irony
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Dec 10, 2019 14:20
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Mullitt posted:Funny to me that Lindelof would hate Snyder’s interpretation but keep his juvenile fixation on Dr. Manhattan’s penis and its size (which is shared by the fan base I guess). It's like the Batista's dick in joke for pro wrestling, but for comic book nerds. HppyCmpr posted:Sidenote: Hate watching is definitely a thing, it's how the Sons of Anarchy thread survived so long. Falling Skies as well.
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Dec 10, 2019 14:22
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ElNarez posted:a man in a rorschach mask zapping doctor manhattan to his doom is too good and too ironic to pass up, ten years as a human taught him the value of a tidy bit of dramatic irony They should have had the 7K guy manning the tachyon cannon do the “Hey Manhattan did you know Steve Jobs died of ligma?”
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Dec 10, 2019 14:24
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Nail Rat posted:You don't have to be able to see the future to know not to stand directly in front of a tachyon cannon with your back to it. That's just being a loving idiot. I only watched the scene once but the cannon is manned when Angela storms out of the house and when Manhattan is standing with his back to it it's actually not pointing at him, the cannon locks on to him and fires. Of course it shouldn't have 'fooled' manhattan because nothing should, but this isn't (at least as far as I remember) a "just take one step to either side and you're fine, you dummy" situation. But really, this is a predestination paradox, we all know this, of course Manhattan has the powers necessary to stop the whole thing, he didn't do it for reasons that will be revealed in the finale. WE ALL KNOW THIS.
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Dec 10, 2019 14:25
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Dr. Manhattan doesn't have the ability to change the future, any more than regular people change the past. He's already experienced it.
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Dec 10, 2019 14:34
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I wonder if nite owl is going to be in the last episode. Probably not, they havent even introduced WatchMan ffs (I predict it will be Manhattan's father)
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Dec 10, 2019 14:34
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everyone can change the future you cyclones. otherwise can anything be said to occur at all? Some people are doing the classic thing where they confuse lack of free will with total inaction
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Dec 10, 2019 15:11
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Arglebargle III posted:everyone can change the future you cyclones. otherwise can anything be said to occur at all? Doctor Manhattan is something of a unique case though. Within his fictional universe he is experiencing everything in his life at once. I mean, it's up for debate whether free will exists in reality, but it certainly doesn't in Watchmen.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:18
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My "I don't perceive time in linearly and the nature of my character is, and always has been such that I have no agency" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. If I were Dr. Manhattan, I would've simply resolved all the conflicts within the story and indeed through out history with my God-like powers. Bad writing I'm afraid. zoux fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 15:28
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Yeah maybe I missed something in the original comic but basically free will doesn't exist in the Watchmen universe. Manhattan can't change the future because it already happened. So he knows that he's going to miss one 7k member and get hit by the cannon but there's not a single thing he can do about it. It's going to happen no matter what.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:32
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Arglebargle III posted:everyone can change the future you cyclones. otherwise can anything be said to occur at all? Sure, for people who don't experience their entire lives at once. If he explodes the laser gun or steps out of its path it's because he already has and also knows he someday will, not because he's chosen to in that moment. He simply can't do anything different because he's essentially a slave to the knowledge of his non-linear causality, unable to do anything beyond just kinda drifting through the motions of it all.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:35
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:35 |
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Fun fact: free will doesn't exist in any fictional universe.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:37
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