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zoux posted:My "I don't perceive time in linearly and the nature of my character is, and always has been such that I have no agency" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:39
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 19:55 |
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Fun fact: free will doesn't exist in any fictional universe. World of Warcraft?
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Dec 10, 2019 15:41
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Necrothatcher posted:World of Warcraft? No one chooses to do that many dailies.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:44
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Fun fact: free will doesn't exist in any fictional universe. Funnier fact: Free will doesn't exist in any real universe either.
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Dec 10, 2019 15:46
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Free will doesn't exist in tv shows. They're written in advanced. Imagine if they outcomes of a movie or tv show could change depending on "Free Will." That's really a nod to the comic book which makes the exact same point. Even the recap video I posted of the comic a couple (well like 50) pages ago makes the same point. It specifically mentions that Dr. Manhattan sees time as the same format of a comic book. You can see the past and future in a comic book. There is no way to change what is within. It specifically is Alan Moore stating a fact about the nature of fiction and comic books as a whole. Very interesting episode. There's a lot to unpack that I think will add depth and make things more interesting on repeat viewings probably given in light of the finale. This is definetly an episode that hangs everything on what the finale is. One take I find really great and that I had not noticed and is a interesting detail is the fact that Jon's name is Jon Osterman. For those who aren't familiar with the relevant german, Oster in german means easter. That is something I never even noticed from the comics. Was Alan Moore making reference to the Superman/Jesus duality with his watchmen universe version of Superman? In that case the concept that Jon, the allegory Jesus superhero-God would sacrifice himself with the knowledge that he must do it to save mankind, would be a bit clever. This whole thing feeds into the many arguements of the nature of God. Alan Moore and by connection the writers on this show extend the concept that for God to be God he must know everything, and in that case free will does not exist. This is a central tenant arguement within Christianity itself, between Calvinism and Arminiasm. If we go back to the Jesus allegories and the Jesus-Superman connection. Remember, we've already established Superman (as fiction) exists in this universe and he was even mentioned in episode 6. The Jesus/Superman metaphors are even stronger in the case of Hooded Justice, who is represented in the series as the original first masked hero, having escaped Tulsa (krypton) as a refugee of sorts. The whole metaphor and foreshadowing here makes me wonder if Dr Manhattan will no end up making Will Reeves his successor, thus cementing him as the first and finally the ultimate superhero. It seems to me everything happens for a reason in this series, they are not foreshadowing Will Reeves/Hooded Justice as having a superman origin story without a reason. The fact that Manhattan has adapted a black body for himself could also say to be pointing towards this ending. The fact that Will Reeves is working with Lady Trieau may indicate that the final outcome here is that Will Reeves, becoming the in universe version of God, and a black god will lead a fight against everything he has seen during his life as only a God could. Other fun facts. I like the fact that the journal that analyzes the book Veidt was reading is called "Nothing Ever Ends." This is an obvious call back to the original phrase uttered by Manhattan to Veidt. But beyond that it fits in with the central issue of trauma as it has been explored in the series. Remember at the start of this recap it beings specifically with Laurie stating that people who don masks do so because of traumas they have usually experienced? (I don't think they did this for no reason at all it has to be relevant to the story they are telling) Remember furthermore in the support group that LG leads they are talking about how traumas are shared genetically from our ancestors? The symbolism I see here and the conscious choice to bring back the "nothing ever ends" is the core message that trauma never ends. It lives with us forever. It is passed down from our ancestors. And that's why those who's ancestors committed said trauma share responsibility for them. Remember Judd's line "It's my legacy"? Reeves response to question why he was hiding it was really profound in my opinion. Ultimately it can be argued for many as hard as they try to be different from their parents and escape their legacy they are doomed to repeat it. That's exposed in the fact that Angela takes up being a masked persona filled with rage, just like her father. Or Jon becomes a smart scientist and a watchmaker, a creator, like his own father. Or that Judd ends up being a racist member of the Klan, like his father. Or that Laurie ends up becoming bitter and jaded person that doesn't care about human rights and works for the government, just like her father. Everything rhymes. Just really love what they're doing there overall. Looking forward to the finale and I hope they stick the landing. ThanosWasRight fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 15:54
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Someone elsewhere pointed out that Dr M didn’t create “the Game Warden” (the persona not the person) but that Adam adopted a masked vigilante identity because of trauma suffered as a youth - watching his god leave. So he created a hero that would keep that from happening again.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:01
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I was sorting through some old photos and found a couple from when I went to the London Watchmen premiere in London back in 2009. Sorry for the tiny size - my phone sucked. Though you guys might get a kick out of them.       
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Dec 10, 2019 16:06
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zoux posted:Someone elsewhere pointed out that Dr M didn’t create “the Game Warden” (the persona not the person) but that Adam adopted a masked vigilante identity because of trauma suffered as a youth - watching his god leave. So he created a hero that would keep that from happening again. Holy poo poo, that makes perfect sense. I finally got to see this newest episode and I really don’t get the complaints about it on here, I thought it was really well done. I love how well it sold everyone getting really frustrated trying to talk to Dr. Manhattan because of how he perceives time.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:07
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duck trucker posted:Yeah maybe I missed something in the original comic but basically free will doesn't exist in the Watchmen universe. Manhattan can't change the future because it already happened. Right but maybe seeing as the cannon was very dangerous, he should have had a close eye on the cannon the whole time at least after quickly seeing that Angela was alright. Then he would have perceived and reacted and it would always have been so. As it is, he was just very careless and it was fate that he was careless.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:17
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Dr. Manhattan doesn't row.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:21
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I really don’t get the complaints about it on here, I thought it was really well done. I love how well it sold everyone getting really frustrated trying to talk to Dr. Manhattan because of how he perceives time. The second sentence in your post here answers the first.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:24
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loving hell do people only watch tv in order to rate it? What’s the point? Ed: missed some pages there.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:25
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Sri.Theo posted:loving hell do people only watch tv in order to rate it? What’s the point? Because there is no free will!! I’m here to rate this show bad and none of you can stop me
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Dec 10, 2019 16:26
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w0o0o0o posted:So who reckons looking glass is going to be hiding amongst the 7k next ep and "gone rogue" to try and sabotage the whole thing? He was the guy who jumped on the cannon after the initial attack and hit the big red button (because there has to be a big red button somewhere) to fire it at Dr. M. wow, so twist, much lindelof etc
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Dec 10, 2019 16:26
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I like Jon's reply about when he was most afraid and that he was currently being torn apart right now. No wonder he's so ghoulishly passive to events when he's constantly being obliterated in his frame of consciousness. Might also explain why he goes out of his way to fall in love so many times- so that his life experiences average out to something more pleasant.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:35
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Maybe there was tachyon radiation from the cannon and it made him feel drugged like in the comic.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:38
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Sri.Theo posted:loving hell do people only watch tv in order to rate it? What’s the point? No they only watch it to make sure that everyone is making the same, smart choices they would've made in the same situation
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Dec 10, 2019 16:39
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It's a fair distinction, I should have used 'free will' but I felt it wasn't adding much clarity to my argument; basically if free will is an illusion then agency is just a perceived property we attribute to things that are sufficiently human. Or maybe in a more manhattenesque way to phrase it, the difference between a hydrogen atom and a human being is that a human being can tell a story about why he did certain things, but otherwise both are just being governed deterministically by the laws of physics. Right. Humans can still learn, and make choices, but so can neural networks. Machines, in the end, but learning, adapting machines.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:52
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misguided rage posted:Please elaborate on what a "time paradox" is and why it would be a problem. He saw the future. I don't know how much simpler you can explain this. If he changes it, then it isn't the future. But canonically we know it is. He CAN see the future, without any error.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:53
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Skitz posted:Emphasis added, because this is exactly why he's such a frustrating character. As other people have said, he's not a god, he's an observer. But he has agency, he just chooses not to use it. Ever. All he has to do to liberate himself from this weird hell he's in is make a loving choice that doesn't comply with what he sees as the future. But he won't and that's not who he is and I'm just speaking as a normal non-inter-dimensional human bean, so what the hell do I know. You're confusing agency with free will. See my post above.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:53
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Arglebargle III posted:Jon it does have agency, which is why standing in front of the science gun is so weird. If he saw himself being killed in the future, it would have to be in a way that was unavoidable to Jon at that moment. Not easily avoidable. Please stop mixing agency and free will up you guys are giving me a brain aneurism. You keep saying agency when you mean free will, and free will when you mean agency. They just are not the same thing!
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Dec 10, 2019 16:55
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Fun fact: free will doesn't exist in any fictional universe. You guys are killing me You mean agency lmao ThanosWasRight posted:Free will doesn't exist in tv shows. They're written in advanced. Imagine if they outcomes of a movie or tv show could change depending on "Free Will." AGENCY. AGH! Not free will. Agency. Guys please, please learn the difference, you're just confusing yourselves.
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Dec 10, 2019 16:57
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MiddleOne posted:Funnier fact: Free will doesn't exist in any real universe either. This is correct
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Dec 10, 2019 16:57
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Just so I got this straight, If the laser beam had killed Manhattan, he would've described it as "I dunno we go outside and suddenly theres nothing". The fact that he can describe it as being shot by a laser (and getting involuntarily teleported) means he has perspective on what happened after the fact, ergo he's still alive after being shot. I know no one actually thinks he died but I'm just thinking this through and making sure it makes sense. The only reason he even knew it was a tachyon laser is because he was alive at some point after getting shot, and in fact at the very moment of getting shot he is probably like wtf
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Dec 10, 2019 17:04
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Fictional characters have agency, not free will.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:04
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Necrothatcher posted:I was sorting through some old photos and found a couple from when I went to the London Watchmen premiere in London back in 2009. Sorry for the tiny size - my phone sucked. Though you guys might get a kick out of them. Don’t apologize for the tiny size—it was probably cold that night. The guy who brought the mock-up of the comedian’s apartment with him is doing some next-level dress-up there.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:09
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Just so I got this straight, Yeah so basically there are two options 1. Doctor Manhattan doesn't know what happens after he gets shot because tachyons. 2. Doctor Manhattan does know what happens and is going through the motions like usual.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:09
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Sri.Theo posted:loving hell do people only watch tv in order to rate it? What’s the point? Zaphod42 posted:You're confusing agency with free will.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:24
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Fictional characters have agency, not free will. I mean, depending upon how you're looking at it, Fictional Characters have neither. Within their universe they have agency, but since they are fictional they don't even have that since the author determines their actions. So that depends upon perspective and if you're treating the character as a character or you're suspending disbelief and treating them as a person. But mixing up agency and free will is just confusing. Agency - the idea that you can make a choice. Free Will - the idea that you can somehow change your choices. A learning computer, a neural network, has agency as it makes choices, and can learn over time. But it has no free will because it is just a machine, and we can look at the code, at the bits, and we can exactly predict what it will do in any given scenario. It is just a set of logical operations. Having "Free Will" requires some kind of magical "Soul" which can somehow control your brain and override whatever physics says your neurons are gonna do. But yes, with fictional characters we get into another layer where like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern the characters themselves are not real people and thus don't even have agency to make choices. But if we're talking about the story in the sense of "Dr. Manhattan should do X" we're already moving past the idea of him as a fictional character written by Lindelof and instead treating him as though he were a living, breathing, thinking man. Dr. Manhattan isn't real, but if he were then he would have agency (but probably not free will) 
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Dec 10, 2019 17:29
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I am not really one of the episode haters but I am gonna be pissed if it is just "he got shot because he knew he got shot" because it's not just being careless, he could have just vaporized the cannon while making waffles. It has to be "and then whatever happens is the outcome he wants." A pickup truck with a gun might as well be a set of toy handcuffs as far as "capturing" Dr. Manhattan, the only possible way it can work is if he plays along and does it for them.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:30
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Just so I got this straight, Yeah, but we also know that Veidt has tried to use Tachyons to kill Manhattan before and it didn't work. There's something else going on to this plan. And that something else may actually kill him? But I am kinda leaning towards the theory that Jon knows how this is going to resolve, and he's intentionally letting it happen because he knows there's something triggered by all this that he wants to happen (Angela becoming Manhattan 2?), even if it costs his own life.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:31
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I like this show despite it's flaws. For a superhero TV show it's very good. At least it ain't derivative Marvel bullshit and makes you think, even if it is to form a contrary opinion, which I totally understand and endorse. I'd much rather have a mediocre show that makes me think than something that blandly reinforces my preferences.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:31
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah, but we also know that Veidt has tried to use Tachyons to kill Manhattan before and it didn't work. There's something else going on to this plan. And that something else may actually kill him? Yup exactly. And we know Manhattan's not dead yet. Trieu said "they're going to capture him, they're going to destroy him, and then they're going to become him", and Manhattan says something like "they're going to involuntarily teleport me and then destroy me."
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Dec 10, 2019 17:32
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Tender Bender posted:I am not really one of the episode haters but I am gonna be pissed if it is just "he got shot because he knew he got shot" because it's not just being careless, he could have just vaporized the cannon while making waffles. It has to be "and then whatever happens is the outcome he wants." A pickup truck with a gun might as well be a set of toy handcuffs as far as "capturing" Dr. Manhattan, the only possible way it can work is if he plays along and does it for them. How is it being careless? He saw the future. He can't change the future any more than anybody else in the Watchmen universe can see the future. Its like Manhattan telling Will about Judd, and then Will investigating Judd, which causes Angela to then tell Manhattan to tell Will. If Angela "chooses" not to ask that question of Manhattan, what would happen? It CAN'T not happen, because it already did. For Angela to know about Judd requires her to have already told him. For Manhattan to know he gets shot, he has to have already been shot. If he doesn't get shot, he wouldn't know about it to avoid it. If he does know it, that means it has to happen.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:33
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BOLD PREDICTION: The senator is Veidt. It was set up in the third episode when Petey said "I heard he got plastic surgery". The suicide bomber being another red herring assassin like in the book would be another clue.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:35
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Cash Monet posted:BOLD PREDICTION: The senator is Veidt. It was set up in the third episode when Petey said "I heard he got plastic surgery". The suicide bomber being another red herring assassin like in the book would be another clue. I endorse this prediction. Bolder take: Lady Trieu is Veidt.
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Dec 10, 2019 17:37
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im veidt
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Dec 10, 2019 17:38
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Cash Monet posted:BOLD PREDICTION: The senator is Veidt. It was set up in the third episode when Petey said "I heard he got plastic surgery". The suicide bomber being another red herring assassin like in the book would be another clue. Ooooooh, me like. Or he's some kind of a rapid clone, like the ones on Europa?
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Dec 10, 2019 17:41
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I bet they will all turn into blue people to end racism
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Dec 10, 2019 17:41
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 19:55 |
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My bold take is The senator does kill manhattan, but fails to become superpowered because of the Millenium Clock does ???? and everyone briefly celebrates. Then somehow that clock does something squid-bomb-esque like mind control people. OR memory wipe people even. and post credit scene lube man, sitting on his throne of astroglide bottles begins to glow blue while letters rearrange themselves from LUBE MAN to BLUE MAN
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Dec 10, 2019 17:47
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